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Bisq exchange growth experiments
https://bisq.wiki/Growth_team
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Add CelPay as a Multi stablecoin currency payment method #231

Open pazza83 opened 3 years ago

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

CelPay - Multi-currency (stablecoins)

Website: https://celsius.network/celpay/ Youtube explainer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS6IIsHb7bM Celsius interest rates: https://celsius.network/rates/

Background

This is a proposal for an Idea I had about using the Celsius app to send and receive stablecoins for Bisq Traders.

I am not 100% for it just think it would be good for discussion as an alternative to bank payments!

Why

Celsius is a popular saving / earning crypto service. They report to have over $1 Billion in users deposits that they rehypothecate to earn interest for users. For example they pay interest on your deposited Bitcoin of about 5.9%. Remember though not your keys not your coins!

They have a feature called CelPay within the app that allows users to send payments to their Celsius contacts within the app or send them a payment link. This could be used for Bisq users to send stable coins to eachother.

The benefit of this is that you are:

Region

Celsius is available in over 100 countries

Currencies

Chargeback risk

Low

Size of user base

100,000+ active users

Data requirements

*name could really be anything. It is just something the buyer would name you as in their contact list. It is the mobile number that is important to link the payment to.

Verification

Currently only a mobile app is available but soon a web app will be added and TLSNotary will be possible

Duration

Instant (24 hours trade time)

Fees

It is free to send and receive

Fraud risk

Low

Payment amounts

$2,500 limit per 24 hours.

Additional information

If added I would propose making it available for the following currencies:

USD, CAD, GBP, HKD, AUD

When offers where taken the buyer could then make the payment in any associated stablecoin equivalent supported by the app. It is only USD that has three options (DAI, TrueUSD, USDC). It easy in Celsius to set up wallet addresses for any stablecoin,

There would be the issue that you are using a stablecoin as a replacement for fiat on the fiat market, I do not think this would be an issue though as everyone who created a CelPay payment method would be aware of this.

If you want to try Celsius out let me know. Celsius are currently offering new users a $60 BTC bonus when you sign up with a referral code and deposit $200 in any supported crypto! 💲💲💲

Mycelial1 commented 3 years ago

This existing conversation was recently revived about stablecoins: https://github.com/bisq-network/proposals/issues/170

As long as Celsius uses real ethereum addresses, you should be able to use your Celsius app for trading DAI on Bisq as DAI is currently available to trade on Bisq right now.

I'm not sure if there's a need for a whole payment method like CelPay if the end goal is just to trade stablecoins.

Unless I'm missing something here, would it not be simpler to just trade using on-chain DAI with an ethereum wallet?

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Thanks for the comments. I think adding CelPay would add 5 stablecoin currencies at once; USD, CAD, GBP, HKD, AUD.

It could also be added to existing fiat markets to help promote liquidity.

Also transfers are immediate and free.

It could also be used to trade in ETH and other supported altcoins, this would avoid gas fees etc.

Being app based transfers are more like a usual payment app than a crypto exchange / wallet, therefore, payments are more user friendly.

Mycelial1 commented 3 years ago

I see what you're getting at. Though, I think it might be weird to implement because you'd have to create an "altcoin" CelPay account in bisq app, and then how would bisq be able to tell which stablecoin you're trying to trade? You only get one field to paste in an address when creating a new altcoin account.

I don't think CelPay should be a "national currency" account either because it's actually "crypto", not fiat.

These are just my thoughts. There was also pushback on listing USDT because DAI was already listed and still has yet to prove demand for it, though I believe there is.

I don't personally use CelPay, but if other people do, they should speak up and/or upvote this proposal if they want it.

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

I don't think CelPay should be a "national currency" account either because it's actually "crypto", not fiat.

Yes, I was proposing to add it as a national currency account with users than able to select out of USD, CAD, GBP, HKD, AUD the currencies they would like to use it for.

I agree it is a little strange as it would be crypto not fiat. But I think all traders that created CelPay accounts would be aware of that. Also would be nice to bring some of the stablecoin liquidity to Bisq within the fiat/BTC pairs.

I have a Celsius account and it is great for small transfers when you do not want to pay any mining fees. All crypto withdrawals / sending are free. I have not used CelPay before but thought this could be a good way to utilize it for Bisq. I like the fact that you are trading outside of a banks ecosystem and the premise of Celsius is to unbank yourself.

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

CelPay has been scored for inclusion to Bisq:

Essential Desirable Definite No’s
Very low risk of chargeback No risk of chargeback < very low risk of chargeback
Way to verify the sender in the received payment Way to verify the sender in the received payment and ability to enter a reference No way to verify the sender in the received payment
Trade time less than one week Instant payment Trade time more than one week
Singular Fiat currency Multi-currency Not a payment method for fiat currency
Significant user base Large user base* No significant user base
High usability High usability and great user experience < high amount usability
No KYC required for sending and receiving payments No KYC required for sending and receiving payments, allows users to trade with upmost privacy. Minimal identifying information as possible (no names, email, phone etc required) Some KYC required (proof of address, ID, selfie) for sending and receiving payments
Low risk of scam attempts Very low risk of scam attempts < low risk of scam attempts
Traders can provide evidence of payment / receipt Traders can provide evidence of payment / receipt and Verification of payment can be made using PageSigner or similar Traders will be unable to provide evidence of payment / receipt
Minimum limit at least equal to at least account limits protocols No minimum limits Minimum limit not able to achieve account limits protocols
Maximum limits equal to at least 0.01 BTC Large payment limits up to 2 BTC Maximum limit is less than 0.01 BTC
Likely to increase liquidity Likely to increase liquidity and open markets for different countries and currencies Likely to decrease liquidity
Low risk of mediation Very low risk of mediation < low risk of mediation
Low risk for traders from government agencies No risk for traders from government agencies < low risk for traders from government agencies
Fees should not be a barrier to trading No fees for transactions Fees will be a barrier to trading
Only minor changes needed to trade protocol No changes needed to trade protocol > Minor changes needed to trade protocol

Score: 27/32 Percentage: 84.38%

Please bare in mind these trades are for stablecoins not fiat. This makes verification much easier, almost no risk of chargebacks.

Conza88 commented 3 years ago

What's the deal with KYC? Ability of the state to ask them & obtain.

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

You need to complete full KYC to open an account with Celsius https://support.celsius.network/hc/en-us/sections/360000536077-KYC-Identity-Verification

Trades using CelPay happen between users on the Celsius platform. So everyone would be KYC'd.

You can withdraw stable coin funds for free to an off platform address (non KYD'd address) but this would take 48 hours as Celsius requires users to wait 24 hours min before adding a new withdrawal address.

Stablecoin funds can also be received from any address. No KYC is needed for deposits.

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

CelPay - Proposed National Currency Payment Method

I am proposing that CelPay be added as a national currency payment method.

@refund-agent2, @huey735, @leo816 please let me know if you have any questions as to how CelPay will be mediated / arbitrated. If you have any objection please let me know by 31 May 2021.

Date proposal being made: 02.05.21 Date feedback to be provided by: 31.05.21

Name of payment method: CelPay

Required fields (eg)

Currencies accepted

Signing required: No

Bisq Limits: eg 0.25 BTC

Trade window: 24 hours

Payment method limits: not aware of any

Any relevant information for users: Currencies are in stablecoins

Screenshot of expected GUI: TBC

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Here is the XD for CelPay, it should be straight forward to add (main difference is trades are for stablecoins but this should affect how it is added from a dev perspective as I am including Celsius within fiat markets):

Payment method - CelPay

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

Information required for Bisq software strings:

Hi @jmacxx here is the information for the strings.

Let me know if you need anything else:

Special info about any of the inputs required for creating the payment account:

Please make sure to include the email that matches your email your Celsius account is registered to. This will ensure that when you send funds they show from the correct account and when you receive funds they will be credited to your account.

CelPay users are limited to sending $2,500 (or other currency/crypto equivalent) in 24 hours.

Trades above CelPay account limits will likely have to take place over more than one day, or, be cancelled.

CelPay supports multiple stablecoins:

BTC Buyers can send any matching currency stablecoin to the BTC Buyer.

Special items to be aware about when sending payments (for BTC Buyers):

Please send payment only to the email address provided by the BTC Seller by sending a payment link.

CelPay is limited to sending $2,500 (or other currency/crypto equivalent) in 24 hours.

Trades above CelPay account limits will likely have to take place over more than one day, or, be cancelled.

CelPay supports multiple stablecoins:

BTC Buyers can send any matching currency stablecoin to the BTC Buyer.

Special items to be aware about when receiving payments (for BTC Sellers):

BTC Sellers should expect to receive payment via a secure payment link. Please make sure the email payment link contains the email address provided by the BTC Buyer.

CelPay users are limited to sending $2,500 (or other currency/crypto equivalent) in 24 hours.

Trades above CelPay account limits will likely have to take place over more than one day, or, be cancelled.

CelPay supports multiple stablecoins:

BTC Sellers should expect to receive any matching currency stablecoin to the BTC Buyer. It is possible for the BTC Buyer to send any matching currency stablecoin.

pazza83 commented 3 years ago

wiki completed: https://bisq.wiki/CelPay