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bobc / bobc_hardware

Various hardware projects
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Update... would it make sense? #34

Closed boelle closed 5 years ago

boelle commented 6 years ago

as per subject would it make sense to update Ramps FD ? are there any improvements that could be made?

bobc commented 6 years ago

Really, the reason for RAMPS-FD was to help kickstart the 32 bit printer controller era (I was not aware RADDS was being developed around the same time). There are now many 32 bit ARM boards, several using the Due chip (SAM3X8E), so that job seems to be done. Those boards cover the range from bargain basement to high end feature rich boards, so I'm not sure where an improved RAMPS-FD would fit in. There have been a couple of RAMPS-FD forks, but it's unlikely I will do a new version. I mooted the idea a while back, and got a fairly negative reception.

boelle commented 6 years ago

Well the problem with RADDS is that that its not open source so you cant check it yourself and it cost an arm+leg as only the people behind them sell it. So i would not count it.... of course its an option and then again my toes are making knots on themselfes

There are of course boards like duet and smoothie, one has onboard stuff and the other has not been updated in a while, and so far firmware like marlin and repetier have not been ported to run with it

I think the negative feedback is due to china took the first versions and just made a pile of them without reading the warnings, as a results there are still a big amount in circulation that only gives the board a bad name. I still think that ramps-fd has its place but due to the above there is a lot to fight against

btw... when i opened the files in kicad it said that the special lib was missing. is that one you made up or can i download that somewhere?

boelle commented 6 years ago

just had a look around and yeah most sellers are still selling rev 1 a and we can thank geeetech for all the negative press :-(

i also looked if any of the forks have been updated and that was not the case

i want to see if i can make improve it, but that missing lib (special) is bugging me.

if i ignore it there are quite a bit on the schematic that are not connected. not sure if that is related to the missing lib

any chance you have the lib and maybe also a BOM ?

bobc commented 6 years ago

It's a no win situation, retain control like RADDS but without FOSS, or go FOSS and lose control to Chinese cloners like RAMPS-FD, Smoothieboard etc. Meanwhile users just buy the cheapest and then complain about lack of support...

From the little feedback I get, there are not many pressing updates to make (apart from add loads of features for zero cost :) ) I guess the two things are the temperature inputs and power supplies. If I had the knowledge, I would add buffers to protect the ADCs, and switched mode power supplies. I think there would also need to be an officially supported LCD control board, that seems pretty standard now.

special.lib is a standard KiCad library that was removed, it is not needed by RAMPS-FD so you can ignore the error. You will need to "rescue" components, because the standard libraries changed.

The two forks were being sold on OSHPark etc, I had to prod them to publish source files... kinda sad that even FOSS supporters don't follow the GPL! Hard to complain about the Chinese not following the rules if we don't ...

boelle commented 6 years ago

oki thanks for the explaination... will try and see if i can manage the rescue after some sleep :-D

But yeah, GPL goes both ways and you cant blame others if you dont comply yourself

Do you have a BOM also ? no rush but it would help if i go ahead and want to make a board for my next printer. sourcing parts can be a pain :-)

rafaljot commented 6 years ago

I have several boards, Duet wifi, RAMPSs 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, MKS gen, sbase, vellman boards, RAMPS-FD v1 and 2.1 I like the RAMS-FD 2.1 the most. The best versatile shield for Due in my opinion.

What I could want more?

boelle commented 6 years ago

@rafaljot hope you dont mind me asking but where did you get the 2.1 from? so far i have one been able to see version 1

steppers like the TMC2130 etc does not require much, an spi connector is all that is needed and 1 free pin for each stepper driver

if not mistaken PTC needs an preamp, even the duet uses an addon for that. but yes it could be onboard maybe and either enable the addon in firmware or with jumper. it will cost more thou, sadly nothing is free :-)

boelle commented 6 years ago

but i guess we can sum up to this so far:

add buffers to protect the ADCs, and switched mode power supplies if not on board allready an SPI connector CS pins for the stepper drivers either PT100 addon or on board

rafaljot commented 6 years ago

Yes, it easy to add SPI but some modern board has more elegant solutions. BTW: Its time to design new stepstick standard....

one guy from Poland has an interesting idea for 12V section. Standard, chip DC-DC step-down mounted over on board. https://reprapy.pl/download/file.php?id=8036&mode=view https://reprapy.pl/download/file.php?id=8081&mode=view

src: https://reprapy.pl/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2533&hilit=due3dom

boelle commented 6 years ago

will have a look but is 12V not a dead horse? TMC2130 runs more silent on 24V. that i have tried myself and yes 24V makes them more silent, i asked watterot myself on that

rafaljot commented 6 years ago

RAMPS-FD 2.1 ? ask Yu ( sylyyf2009 at hotmail )

boelle commented 6 years ago

"one guy from Poland has an interesting idea for 12V section. Standard, chip DC-DC step-down mounted over on board."

that is what @bobc suggested, but yeah maybe modules are more easy to integrate

yes where did you buy the ramps fd 2.1?

rafaljot commented 6 years ago

I answered above https://reprapy.pl/download/file.php?id=8082&mode=view

look at MS1,MS2,MS3,MS4/SPI configuration

bobc commented 6 years ago

Just for info, RAMPS-FD moved to its own repo, https://github.com/bobc/RAMPS-FD/tree/dev I think I didn't update the BOM because I didn't really finalise the design.

The reason for having 12V and 24V was because some people wanted to run motors at 24V, but also have fans, LED strips at 12V. There are lots of combinations, it would be a lot simpler to have all 12V or 24V. I did think about using a separate DC-DC module, but there is no standard.

boelle commented 6 years ago

hehehe, @rafaljot game me think link on facebook and i just finished adjust all the 3d stuff. its nice to have some eyecandy :-D

the 2.2 version had far less rescue to do

a partial BOM would also be usefull

if you dont mind i could make a google sheet with shop links etc.

how it looks without any mods.... if anything i would change the 3d model for the shield connectors so it does not include the mega/due board but just the pin headers

image

Antscran commented 6 years ago

Hi, Juts been following this thread and this current discussion, so hope you don't mind me adding a comment. It would be great to see the RAMPS-FD revisited and couldn't agree more with your comment Boelle.

Well the problem with RADDS is that that its not open source so you cant check it yourself and it cost an arm+leg as only the people behind them sell it.

I have done some design work before and would also help with any prototyping costs if there is enough support for the idea. Cheers,Ant

boelle commented 6 years ago

@Antscran

so far all i have done is taken the file from @bobc and collected the 3d stuff. My next step would be to try and build up a BOM and then we could varify that the parts are good enough or find better replacements.

I think stuff like the circuits for the bed etc...

then we could expand it with the ideas that @bobc told

but yeah we need to convise people that Ramps FD is safe and all the negative feedback is LARGELY due to Geetech spamming the market with an version that was not ready

if we can get that far my suggestion would be to create an Organization on github just for the board and maybe a few addons. It might sound like overkill but it allows more than one to have the edit stick

boelle commented 6 years ago

Q... how do i edit a WRL file? i want to edit the wrl for the due shield so it only have the pins under the rams fd board...

i tried freecad but failed

bobc commented 6 years ago

Hmm, it seems I have several local changes that I haven't pushed to github. I can probably find time tomorrow to push the latest changes.

I tried getting a quote from Macrofab for 10 off assembled boards, it was around $1200 for 10 boards, which is about 4x the price RAMPS-FD found on ebay. There are some cheaper services based in China, but I didn't get any quotes.

boelle commented 6 years ago

i could imagine that getting them made outside china will cost quite a bit more

No rush on the last changes, i think the biggest job if anything would be to convince people that the board has a place.

if you have a partial BOM that would be usefull too

boelle commented 6 years ago

i have started the "painfull" process of making a BOM. I decided to split it up in small chunks that follows the schematic

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RLnmdB46gqgr1EFkkU6c9ktHnhKonsIwyvMgGwauXlQ/edit?usp=sharing

for now everyone can comment on the sheet but no edits

should we be so damm lucky that people gets interested and we need to get more organized etc those permissions can be changed :-D

rafaljot commented 6 years ago

@bobc ask this men from China ( @yyf2009, sylyyf2009 at hotmail com ) as I understand he was interested in producing RAMPS-FD 2.2 and final list price I got was much lower then $1200 per 10. They talked about it in this thread https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/issues/9484 I have two pieces FD2.1 from him, they look better then average China production, definitely better terminals for instance.

boelle commented 6 years ago

Ideal it should be us telling the man from china precise what parts we want on the board and what brand each part should have so we know 100% that its the right parts for the job

and there might be small changes to the board also

would say its a bit to early for big production runs.

for that kind of thing we still need to convince many people that Ramps FD is not "junk" etc.

yyf2009 commented 6 years ago

@boelle @bobc I already have V2.2 pcb, but I haven't assembled yet. I don't know who needs it. For the V2.1 board, I want to say that I have produced a batch. If you need, you can contact me. Can also produce any board

boelle commented 6 years ago

@yyf2009 since V2.2 is alsmost the same as V2.1 we can compare prices... what did the assembled V2.1 cost?

i started up this thread as i think Ramps FD has its place, its just a shame that Geetech took the first versions that where not safe and flooded the market. Everyone things Ramps FD is a BAD board.

We need to do this right and use time to go over every little detail so that everything is checked and rechecked

I have nothing against if the boards are made in china, as long we have some control over what parts goes on the board. Of course that will also dictate the price

boelle commented 6 years ago

and also remember that V2.2 is not 100% complete yet

@bobc still wants some features added to it

no 2 and 3 is for Trinamic Drivers. if its to much trouble we just need to make sure that there are SPI pins there. it could be the SPI connector in the middle that connects to the DUE. We simply just use a stacking header so that we have a socket on the back side and pins on the top side

rafaljot commented 6 years ago

I wonder if CFG1-3 jumpers are still needed.

Is it problem to make additional/optional pads for capacitors on opposite side? Its for better air movement under the drivers. does it make sense? (in K8400 I glued two heat sinks on both sides)

boelle commented 6 years ago

we could make them an optional, ie. we dont solder them but we leave the holes in the board

so if end user want to use old steppers they can do that

but i should have a BOM ready by the end of day... or at least a partial one so we can start to fill in the important thing like maker and model of parts

rafaljot commented 6 years ago

but if you want to remove jumpers you need to add 3state solderjumpers with configuration SPI/CFG

boelle commented 6 years ago

not in this case,

user just buy the jumpers and solder them on to the board

i guess what you mean with solderjumpers is that we change the holes to pads so user can make a bridge between pads with a blob of solder

but if we change holes to pads the user cant solder in normal jumpers

i think its best to just leave CFG1-3 as they are. and i think @bobc will say i'm correct when he gets back

boelle commented 6 years ago

What component supplier woulld be the best?

Mouser? RS Components?

We need one that is world wide and that also sells to private individual. Both Mouser and RS Components do that

boelle commented 6 years ago

Benefit with mouser is that we can create a shopping list and share that public so if some people want to solder themselfes we can just give them the board and the link...

Resistors... Do they need to be better than 5%? So far i have just selected 1-5% and picked the cheapest one LED's.... What current should they be, 20 mA ? So far i have picked 20mA The EEprom is connected to +V_Logic, do i read correct it can be either 3.3V or 5V depending on Jp101 and if its a due or mega, is that correct? L1 is a ferrite bead... any data for that?

bobc commented 6 years ago

For the BOM, I think https://github.com/bobc/bobc_hardware/blob/master/RAMPS-FD/RAMPS-FD_BOM.ods would be a good start. Resistor values are not critical, except those in the thermistor circuit. SMD resistors are mostly 1% anyway. LEDs current is not important. In theory, RAMPS-FD could run with 5V logic, so to be fully compliant EEPROM should be 3.3V-5V.

Generally, Digikey part numbers are quite universal.

boelle commented 6 years ago

Thanks :-D

i did go with mouser and would say i'm 75% through if not more

think i will get the BOM done tonight and would be good to get as many as possible to look at it

bobc commented 6 years ago

For the switching 12V power, I was thinking of a module like https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/switching-regulators/1619073/. It's pin compatible with LM7812, and only requires a little more board space.

I have no problem building my own boards, but I couldn't build boards for other people. So I was looking at assembly houses for making prototypes or small runs for interested people. It turns out I did get a quote from Itead, $957 for 10 boards assembled. I would need to add shipping, import duties and VAT (20%) just to get them to me.

boelle commented 6 years ago

i also thought of those modules, i saw a guy use them to replace the voltage reg's in an old C64, worked fine for him and not even an scope could tell much difference

that price is crazy, that is why i'm messing arround with a BOM to see where the price for parts will end, if to high it would impossible to get others interest...

dinner time here, will get the BOM done and then repost link for review. i might have picked stupid expensive parts or the wrong ones

Antscran commented 6 years ago

@bobc just curious the price you were quoted was that just for the SMD components on 1 side of the PCB? Figure costs could be reduced if any through hole components, headers etc were soldered on by the user.

For me buying it in a semi complete kit form like this would be an option, some SMD components would not be an issue but this is not for all.

bobc commented 6 years ago

that price is crazy

Not really, but of course "it depends". For small q's, an SMPS would probably cost me near £2 just in parts, so actually a module like that is much simpler and smaller, unless I am making 1000 quantity. But then if I was in Shenzen, I could make it for maybe 50p and still sell on ebay for £1 incl shipping.

if to high it would impossible to get others interest...

That is #1 problem I face (and Smoothie, RepRapPro etc). I can make it good, or cheap , but not both. People always prefer cheap. In fact they will buy the cheap board from China then expect I give them free lifetime support because I designed it :) I've kinda moved to the position where if people want cheap, I don't care about them because I could only do that if I lived in Shenzen.

bobc commented 6 years ago

just curious the price you were quoted was that just for the SMD components on 1 side of the PCB? Figure costs could be reduced if any through hole components, headers etc were soldered on by the user.

All components. Unfortunately there is an infinite range of users requests from part kit to built and tested. Horrible logistics. Kits would actually cost more because of the time to kit out parts.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add cost of testing to sale price :)

bobc commented 6 years ago

So what type of Trinamic modules are people using? There are these on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TMC-2130-2100-2208-Stepstick-Stepper-Motor-Driver-Module-Heat-Sink-fr-3D-Printer/282760855753?hash=item41d5dc40c9:m:mYc2X5y_VTtEvKPe3Jxu4cQ, originally designed by Waterott I think. It looks like it would be quite easy to support those with just a few extra resistors and still be compatible with classic Pololus.

bobc commented 6 years ago

Is it problem to make additional/optional pads for capacitors on opposite side?

It's not easy, because the routing of power tracks is quite cramped.

A possibility is to increase board size, that might be needed anyway to allow for new features and improve the layout. It is already a struggle to route on 2 layers. 4 layers would make it easier but more $$$.

bobc commented 6 years ago

I've modified the stepper circuit to allow for Trinamic modules, it adds 2 resistors

image

However, to make it work, I also need to add 3 jumpers to optionally connect SPI bus to all the modules, or add 3 resistors to each stepper module. Otherwise, adding a microstep jumper will stop the SPI working...

boelle commented 6 years ago

So what type of Trinamic modules are people using

I think its mostly 2130 and 2208, the latter can handle more current and have a new version of stealthchop

boelle commented 6 years ago

However, to make it work, I also need to add 3 jumpers to optionally connect SPI bus to all the modules,

and each modules also would need a CS line, it would require a person that is good at routing tracks :-)

boelle commented 6 years ago

In fact they will buy the cheap board from China then expect I give them free lifetime support because I designed it

hmm.... that is not fair. as i understand it you and the people working on it at the time did put a very clear warning that is was not ready yet.

boelle commented 6 years ago

Kits would actually cost more because of the time to kit out parts.

We could get arround that by creating a "project" at mouser and share the link. That would enable people to order all the parts on their own. And we could even do the same at oshpark so people can order a board. just thoughts thoug

bobc commented 6 years ago

On second thoughts, I need to use jumpers for each SPI line, and 1 for each CS, so another 9 jumpers. Otherwise the SPI will mess with the config of regular Pololus.

The 2130 has SPI, the 2208 has a unidirectional UART. The UART can also be accommodated I think (with another jumper!). The fysetc version is slightly different to the Watterott version.

We could get arround that by creating a "project" at mouser and share the link.

Sure, good idea.

boelle commented 6 years ago

Made it to the end of the BOM and have used the one you linked to where i was in doubt

Q's:

Now rechecking the BOM

bobc commented 6 years ago

After a bit of digging, I found the BOM I create for Itead quote on v2.2. https://github.com/bobc/RAMPS-FD/blob/dev/RAMPS-FD/RAMPS-FD_bom_Itead.xlsx

is C4 the same as C3? i assume yes but assumptions can sometimes be fatal :-D

yes

U4 the 5V regulator is now mentioned anywhere, how many amps should it supply?

I specced a 1.5A part, but 1A should be ok.

L1 is not mentioned anywhere, from the kicad files i assume its an ferrite bead, will any that fits the footprint do the trick?

I have https://www.digikey.co.uk/products/en?keywords=445-2166-1-ND

C301 should be a c_elec_4x5.3 according to the BOM, but the board say 0603, voltage is not mentioned, should it be a 16v ?

I changed C301..C304 to 0603 ceramic. I couldn't see any reason for them to be electrolytics.

c1001 is not mentioned in the BOM but from the board i found that its a c_elec_4x5.3, should it also be a 16V?

Can be, but it's part of the faulty thermistor filtering which I recommend not fitting.

R211 is marked as NF, does the mean not fitted?

Yup :)

C601 is a 0603 on the board, is that also a 16V?

For simplicity I specced all ceramic to be 25V, although I think 16V is Ok for most of them. The price difference is minor.

boelle commented 6 years ago

My version of the BOM with only parts from mouser and only just the numbers that is needed for one board comes out to 65€

The screw terminals is not included as they where only rated for 12A and the bed do 16A Fuse holders are spec'ed at 15A so might just do the trick