Make companion mobile apps (iOS and Android)

[iffy]

After v1.0.0 of the desktop app is released, I will begin work on a mobile app.

[iffy]

Imported from https://trello.com/c/O516tLgr

[kianrafiee]

Awesome work on this project. Once you have an iOS app, I will switch over to buckets.

[Limezy]

Hi Matt, any ETA for that one ? If you need any beta (or alpha) testers I'm in !

[AAverin]

@iffy If you can come up with some tasks, maybe community would be able to help with apps development? I am trying to come up with a workaround, maybe find some app that would let me track transactions and take pictures of receipts, so I could sync them with the app later. But the point is – apps are essential, even if they only can track transactions

Even better if you could collaborate with some existing apps. For example, this one is very simple, just for tracking, and exports to CSV: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=money.expense.budget.wallet.manager.track.finance.tracker&hl=en

[iffy]

@AAverin thanks for your comment on this. After playing with various frameworks and even looking at developing the apps natively, I think I've finally settled on how I want to approach the apps (webview at first, with the possibility of going native later). I should blog about my research and findings.

And yes, the first versions of the apps will likely be limited to apps that "only can track transactions."

That said, I'm not opposed to anyone that wants to make or alter an existing app to work with Buckets. I would even be up for documenting and publishing the API I plan to use to sync the desktop and mobile Buckets apps. And I could also possibly (no promises yet) release that API even before the mobile apps are done.

[AAverin]

@iffy I am fullstack mobile dev, I do both Android and iOS apps natively + backends in Java and Node

With my experience, for a small startup without huge money on the table, I would recommend starting with PWAs, adapting existing javascript codebase.

I wouldn't recommend going to React.Native – efforts there are not much less than building 2 native apps, even tough it might seem that it's faster, and there are lots of issues with maintenance and hiring people to support React.Native – no native devs are eager to develop with this tech stack.

The ultimate goal would be, of course, to have proper native app with full functionality. It's usually quite expensive to build and doesn't result in direct money, but rather adds to customer happiness and brand love.

For you particular case, the trickiest part would be synchronisation. With database for the budget beings some kind of file, it would be challenging to update that file from the mobile app – probably something like Google.Drive or Dropbox could be of help. Still, I am using an app for passwords that works exactly like that – there is a desktop app that saves into a file, file can be put to Google.Drive and app can connect to Google.Drive and modify same file. This is the path I would recommend for you.

Regarding adaptation of existing apps – I think if you will offer tooling and contact some developers, they might get interested. I have tried nYNAB and was trying to find cheaper alternative, was very surprised to see Buckets and so far I like it, except for the lack of mobile app =)

Anyways, I think initiative for apps should go from your side, like, contacting developers and offering them something. Also, I wouldn't mind to pay for mobile app support, considering that the price for the desktop app itself is very low and, having a few of my own projects I try to sell, I can say that 29$ is not enough to cover for your time your family losses.

[scottAnselmo]

I thought I'd chime in as well as someone who recently bought Buckets to help fund mobile development which is the only thing holding me back from switching from YNAB4: I too would be willing to contribute to a crowdfunding effort to help accelerate mobile development. I'd also be especially willing to contribute money to any efforts to port the existing GNU/Linux version to work well on GNOME+KDE for the mobile form factor that is Librem5 and other GNU/Linux phones when they launch in April.

[iffy]

Alpha testers wanted soon. Sign up here!

[Limezy]

Hi @iffy , any news ?!

[iffy]

We just moved again (amid the virus, which has been interesting). We're getting settled and then I'll first release a desktop version with the ability to communicate with mobile devices. I need to do a little more testing on Windows and Linux before releasing. Then I'm hoping to get the first mobile app out.

I'm really sorry it has taken this long. I should write a blog post so you know I'm still here.

Here's a screenshot of the desktop's page for managing connections to other devices:

[Limezy]

Hi ! Any news about that ? 😉

[iffy]

Still plugging along, s l o w l y... Much more slowly than I'd like, but progress is still measurable. Most of the recent month's work has been extracting functionality from the desktop app into a shared library for both desktop and mobile. I'm finally back on the actual mobile app since a few weeks ago.

[ahmednrana]

Hi ! Any news about that ? I would even like to use half working version

[iffy]

Hi ! Any news about that ?

I have the remaining steps mapped out for phase 1, and will hopefully have some good chunks of time in the next few weeks.

I would even like to use half working version

Me too ;)

[jegrosskopf]

Hi @iffy. First off, I want to briefly share my background as it relates to the use of personal budgeting tools. Note that I am NOT a software developer but only a software consumer, so I think I likely represent 95+% of your potential customer base. I have personally been using an envelope-based budgeting system of some type since I got married in 1980 (yes, I've been married for 40 years and I'm getting old). Here is my experience with envelope-based budgeting over those 40 years - since 2014 I have been using the now unsupported "classic" YNAB (which continues to work on Windows 10 and iOS 14 but eventually will not work on new operating systems); from 2000 to 2014 I used the now obsolete Money Matters/Map application; and, finallly, from 1980 to 2000 I tracked our monthly budget on my own self-made, totally paper-based envelope system (that was tedious but worth the effort). Needless to say, I am a true believer in the value of using an envelope-based budgeting system, and up to this time I have been able to avoid paying monthly or annual fees for the use of an online budgeting program (of which there are several pretty good ones).

Which brings me to the purpose of this posting. I have been following BUCKETS for several years now, eagerly looking forward to the releaase of the mobile apps, as the absence of these apps is a show-stopper for me - and I would imagine this is true for many/most other potential new customers as well. I note that on your BUCKETS home page you state that "Buckets is a keep-going, not a start-up. I'm here for the long haul," putting forth the assertion that one of the reasons potential new customers should consider purchasiing BUCKETS is because you are committed to mainaining and developing the software for the long-term. And yet the posts for this particular issue ("Make companion mobile apps") date back more than three years and still there are no released mobile apps. In addition, your updates on development and release of the mobile apps over the past three years have been vague as well as few and far-between, which brings into question the likelihood that the mobile apps will ever be developed and released.

So, on behalf of myself as well as possibly many others, I would ask that you please provide an update that includes a realistic projected timeframe for release of the mobile apps. If you are unable to do so, I'm sorry to say but I will have to move on and put BUCKETS in my rear-view mirror. Thank you for considering my comments in the helpful manner in which they are intended and also for responding in kind. (BTW, I really want BUCKETS to be successful.)

[iffy]

@jegrosskopf, thank you for taking the time to post. According to my interactions with people, your post reflects the sentiment of most Buckets users. And I'll add my wife and me into that same pool. In response, I'll offer this:

First, I don't expect anyone to purchase a license based on what will be released. If Buckets doesn't meet your needs now, wait until it does before purchasing, please.

Second, I realize how irritating it must be to be kept waiting. There have been many discouraging days and frustration as I've watched the days, then months, then years slip by.

Third, I'm still excited every time I get to work on Buckets! The mobile apps are definitely still being developed. I don't get consistent time to spend on them, though. Sometimes I get several days in a row. Other times, weeks go by without any time. If I had consistent time, I could provide a solid time frame.

Here are the tasks left to do for the mobile app:

• Fix an Android flickering bug (occasionally makes the app unusable -- I don't know the cause yet)
• Fix iOS icon format so Apple will accept the app
• Personally test on real devices (I've been surprised how difficult it is to get various iOS, macOS, iTunes and Xcode versions to play nicely with each other)
• Submit to Apple to see what the next issue is (I wish they'd state them all up front instead of one at a time)
• Publish Android apk
• Publish Apple app

In the meantime, I also try to fix bugs in the desktop app. And there are always fires to put out, which sometimes sap the time I intended to spend on the mobile app.

I hesitate to post updates on the blog because most progress is minor and not worth a whole blog post. Perhaps it would be helpful to everyone if I posted regular, short updates to this issue?

Again, thank you for reaching out. I know you wouldn't make the effort unless you liked Buckets. Hopefully this is encouraging!

[jegrosskopf]

Hi Matt,

I’m impressed! Thank you for your thoughtful, personal, and thorough response. Your response tells me as much about you as it does about the development of Buckets. You are obviously a caring, hard-working, and dedicated person, and I commend you for that. Keep up the good work!

On a further note, I can certainly (at least somewhat) understand the challenges you are facing. Although, like I said, I’m not a software developer, I did work in the manufacturing sector as a process engineer (along with various other roles) for 40 years. Much of that time was spent supporting daily production so I certainly know what it’s like to have to put out daily fires while also trying to run projects – the projects always take a backseat and it seems like you can never spend the time you want to on them.

Okay, since you opened the door, I thought I would share some thoughts with you that may or may not be helpful – so take ‘em or leave ‘em as you feel is appropriate:

• I don’t know if this is your primary business, a side business, or just a hobby – but whatever it is I would highly recommend that you take the time to develop a business plan (if you don’t already have one). I’ve recommended this to many others I know – I tell them that you need to decide where you are going with this business in the next 3 to 5 years and then develop your plan to get there.
• I would recommend that you take about 30 minutes (a maximum of 60 minutes) each month to post an update – not many people are like me and take the time to reach out like I did so this would go a long way towards helping others hear from you on a regular basis as far as what’s going with Buckets.
• As far as communicating your plans moving forward, compare what you share with what others are sharing (here is an example - https://help.wiz.money/en/articles/4594099-development-roadmap) and figure out what makes sense in your situation. You certainly don’t need to share in that level of detail but people are going to remain loyal only so long if you don’t give them anything.
• Don’t apologize in your posts – just tell it like it is.
• Give consideration to the help you have been offered from others as far as development and/or crowdsourcing – and I know that’s easier said than done. I’m a big fan of the TV show “The Profit” and I’m amazed sometimes how entrepreneurs will turn down the offer made to them by Marcus Lemonis to help their failing businesses, and primarily because they don’t want to give up control – and then their businesses usually completely fail shortly afterwards. Even if this just means getting help in one small area to begin with, this would at least be a start (and I know it can cost you more time than you gain up front – but try to look at the longer term when making those decisions).
• Give your “audience” something to be excited about – or else you’ll lose them.
• Consider charging a higher price for the product or looking at different pricing structures – it needs to be worth your time and effort and your customers generally will understand that.

Please consider this just a bit of friendly advice from a complete stranger (understanding that I know absolutely nothing about your personal business but I do have many years of experience in the business world). Again, I hope my input is helpful to you and not frustrating. I will continue to be a cheerleader for you and for Buckets. Please feel free to let me know if you want to dialogue further or if there is anything I can do to further help (assuming I’ve been any help at all thus far).

All the best,

John

[Limezy]

Hi Matt !

I take opportunity of this interesting thread to give my small big feedback. I had great fun computing that I now purchased my Buckets licence 1140 days ago 😳 !

It has been a long journey, and Buckets is one of the very important softwares in my life. I love using it. Following my professional expat life, I have a budget in €, a budget in Chinese ¥, a budget in Myanmar MMK, a budget in Thai ฿... I have recommended Buckets to a high number of friends, and some are also using it on a daily basis. Was it worth the price I paid for my licence ? Totally Would I still pay for a licence or recommend paying for it ? Totally

I am a big fan of your "it's free, but pay when you feel like it's fair" philosophy. I'm also a big fan of the fact that you didn't fall in the marketing trap most softwares are now using, asking for a regular subscription. The day I paid for my licence, I wasn't paying for future or non-existing features, for crazy roadmaps or anything else. I was paying for what I already have, an that is the accounting software I had been searching for years : simple to use yet powerful, easy to update, easy to install, and most of all, based on an accounting philosophy that suited my family needs !

To put it simple : I paid for Buckets, and I got a lot for my money. Maybe much more than for any other software I purchased. So what I'm gonna write down here has nothing to do with any misplaced hopes I had when purchasing that licence !

The thing is I have to admit that I am more and more concerned about Buckets' future.

When I started using Buckets, more than 3 years ago, it was clear that you had a lot of time to dedicate to that nice project. There were some regular updates, bug removals, interface polishing, discussions on Github about the future of Buckets and so on. I was very excited, and even participated to your translation program !

I already had some doubts about the long term viability of your model : one-developper closed source side project, apparently relatively low number of downloads and even lower number of licence payments. As you said it, what fueled your motivation for that project wasn't the money you could make from it. It was the fun you had doing it, and the time you could dedicate to it.

However, clearly my doubts were not legit at that time, and I was even more relaxed when I saw that "issue" https://github.com/buckets/application/issues/320 where I could trust the fact that you had exactly identified the "weaknesses" of your model, and were ready to tackle with them when necessary.

Saddly, at some point (and I believe you wrote somewhere in 2019 that it was related to a moving and also to a day-job change on your side) it became clear that you had much less time to give to Buckets. Obviously you were still giving some time to it. Obviously most of the time you gave to it was "invisible" for us Desktop users, since you were working on the mobile version. I subscribed to the beta in 2019. I read all your blog posts about how hard it was to create these cross-platform mobile versions (and I truly believe it's hard...). But I couldn't help thinking that for some personal reasons of yours (which I totally respect !) the project pace was not the same anymore.

Just like @jegrosskopf suggested, I feel like you are halfway accross two extreme options : this project still gives you enough excitement to justify keeping full control on it, but is not promising enough for you to dedicate a full or even a part time of your working day.

Three years and a half after my first Buckets download, I have to admit I'm a little bit disappointed by where the project is now (again, this has absolutely nothing to do with my licence payment). Most of the stuff I really need or I was really excited about is not there, and most probably will never be (unless there is a change of paradigm on the project control)

• Mobile app
• Community / specially coded buckets
• Inter-budgets exchanges (I really need this because of my multiple currencies)
• Community macros
• Powerful analysis tab
• Web-based version to put on my server for quick access
• And so much more !

The more I think about it, the more I feel like the comment you made here https://github.com/buckets/application/issues/320#issuecomment-444199022 has become a reality.

1. Your capacity as a solo developper has clearly shown its limits, with your whole userbase waiting for the mobile apps for more than two years now
2. Even if no bus didn't get you (and I seriously hope none will never 😅🤣), your comment "some other life change that prevented me from continuing work on Buckets" looks a lot like what has been happening since end of 2019 !

All this boils down to one big question I have. Please feel free to answer or not, and please be sure that my intent is not to criticize the way you've been building Buckets so far. I just wanted you to know my personal opinion !

Wouldn't Buckets project AND you as its owner AND us as its users benefit from it to become open source ?

1. Small bugs could be solved and repaired by the community, while you would focus on the interesting long term stuff
2. Some power users could build features that are not in your priority list but that could benefit to others
3. Buckets format would become a much more trusty one for the long term
4. Using models like https://opencollective.com/ you could have your users paying regularly to support development instead of paying once and for all for your past efforts. I hate paying a subscription for a software. But I would have no problem paying regularly for you to improve Buckets. For example, 4$ a month (which I would totally be willing to if I knew Buckets were open source and that you would use that money to improve it) would have me paying the equivalent of one licence per year.
5. Open sourced Buckets could be very nicely filling a big gap : YNAB is very expensive and closed source, and all other open source accounting softwares I could try were not up to the game. Because of this, you could have very nice surprises, and Buckets could really rocket up from the current 57 stars it has on github. Athens Research, an open source project that I contribute to, started less than one year ago. The guy, which is very dedicated but I believe not more than you were dedicated to Buckets in 2018, managed to secure an annual budget of more than 20k$ on Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/athens), and has raised 1.9 million dollars (https://athens-research.ghost.io/athens-1-9m-seed-round-led-by-caffeinated-capital/) with what was nothing more than a beta version of a Roam Research open sourced copy. My example is extreme but Open Source can also secure investments ! I'm deeply convinced that an open source Buckets could be a good side business for you, if not a well working full time job. A little bit of open source, a little bit of marketing around "finally a YNAB open source" and things could go faster than you tink !
6. Mobile app sales on the stores could also support your work - and this doesn't prevent the mobile apps to be open source.
7. Mobile to Desktop syncing backend could also be sold to support your work - and this doens't prevent the backend to be open source.
8. You having less motivation or less time to spend on the project wouldn't prevent it to live and improve on a daily basis

Again, I'm still very happy using Buckets, and I'm really looking forward to trying the (coming ?) mobile apps, but I feel Buckets could become so much more ! You may not be in line with my analysis and I'll be 100% OK with this. The only thing I don't want, is Buckets to slowly die because you have less and less time to dedicate to it !

[Mpic]

I also would not mind paying a monthly amount for you to feel encouraged to work on Buckets (with no obligation to do so with a regular subscription)

[iffy]

Thank you, all! I won't turn down donations -- you all are very kind. But don't feel like you need to. There's a donation link at the bottom of the homepage: https://buckets.app/

And though donations might help for the long-term, it won't improve the current day-to-day time constraints. But I suppose it would have to start small before it could be big :)

[iffy]

Short status update on mobile apps:

I had to pause for a few weeks to pack and move again, remodel the house we moved into (during a building supply shortage, no less), visit family for the first time in 2 years and address some bus factor elements with building the desktop app as noted here: https://github.com/buckets/application/issues/320#issuecomment-889334478

Mobile dev will now resume! 🎉

[Limezy]

Hi @iffy ! Can we hope an alpha version as a christmas gift 🎅 🎁 😍 ?!

EDIT : Just seen your blog post !

[ctheune]

My only wish for a mobile app would be for it to be very simple and having a straight-forward (on the go) ability (for multiple people) to record cash transactions.

[Limezy]

I have received my TestFlight invitation this morning. Thank you so much ! Now testing 👍

[jegrosskopf]

Would it be possible for me to get an invite to TestFlight as well?

---

From: Limezy @.> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 2:02:19 AM To: buckets/application @.> Cc: jegrosskopf @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [buckets/application] Make companion mobile apps (iOS and Android) (#72)

I have received my TestFlight invitation this morning. Thank you so much ! Now testing 👍

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/buckets/application/issues/72#issuecomment-993218471, or unsubscribehttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AM6IWPJ7RFI5YPM2GNPPCTDUQ3TXXANCNFSM4E4PIRLA. Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOShttps://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Androidhttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

[iffy]

@jegrosskopf absolutely! Sign up here (if you haven't): https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfti1Bmm6Zi8I8zauwPpZcMLNUZgwRG9QRWkW6Ki6Szi9lLlw/viewform

I'm slowly inviting people from that list each day.

[Hydro8]

Do you know when you release the app for android ?

Thanks for your work.

[natrius]

Nice, well explained and thought out comment @Limezy :) I want to add one thing:

Mobile app sales on the stores could also support your work - and this doesn't prevent the mobile apps to be open source.

It would be possible to make the app available paid in the google store and free and open on the https://www.f-droid.org/ store. The app OSMAnd is doing it kinda this way, for example.

[arteteco]

I added myself for the testflight as well, hope to see a link soon!