Add Sailor Moon Crystal Challenge characters?

[TheOrgg]

There's subtle differences to some of these characters. Most of the abilities I wouldn't worry about until all the abilities are activated; the only one that probably should is Neo Queen Serenity, since she's really weak without it and it doesn't seem like that hard of an ability to activate, as it just brings in an extra Reserve Die each time she loses. (She gets to use it twice, but since she's only got four reserve dice...

Here's a forum thread with the Promo and both sets.

http://www.buttonweavers.com/ui/forum.html#!threadId=673

[TheOrgg]

I was formatting these for the wiki and thought it might be useful here. It's a little closer to what'll be needed for the site. There's several duplicate names with different stats or Iconic Abilities, so I added the (Crystal) after their names. There's some that are similar to the original sets, but I checked and they aren't identical.

Sailor Moon (Crystal) - - [(8) (8) (10) (20) r(6) r(10) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Planet Power. Once per match after making an attack, you may take an extra turn.]

Sailor Mercury (Crystal) - - [(4) (8) (8) (12) r(4) r(6) r(10) r(10), Iconic Special Ability: Planet Power. Once per match after making an attack, you may take an extra turn.]

Sailor Mars (Crystal) - - [(4) (6) (12) (20) r(6) r(10) r(10) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Planet Power. Once per match after making an attack, you may take an extra turn.]

Sailor Jupiter (Crystal) - - [(6) (10) (10) (20) r(6) r(12) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Planet Power. Once per match after making an attack, you may take an extra turn.]

Sailor Venus (Crystal) - - [(4) (6) (10) (12) r(6) r(8) r(8) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: Planet Power. Once per match after making an attack, you may take an extra turn.]

Tuxedo Mask (Crystal) - - [(6) (6) (10) (20) r(4) r(8) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Masked Defender. Twice per match, you may force an opponent to make an attack that targets a different die. If there is no other valid attack, the opponent must pass.]

Wiseman (Crystal) - - [(12) (12) (20) (20), Iconic Special Ability: Death Phantom. Steal a reserve die from your opponent whenever you lose a round. That reserve die is no longer available to your opponent.]

Jadeite - - [(8) (8) (12) (12) r(4) r(6) r(6) r(10), Iconic Special Ability: Dark Kingdom. Thee times per match, you may reroll a die just used in your attack. May be used multiple times on the same die or several dice used in one attack, but each reroll uses up one use of the ability.]

Nepbrite - - [(4) (6) (12) (12) r(6) r(8) r(10) r(10), Iconic Special Ability: Dark Kingdom. Thee times per match, you may reroll a die just used in your attack. May be used multiple times on the same die or several dice used in one attack, but each reroll uses up one use of the ability.]

Zoisite - - [(4) (10) (10) (12) r(6) r(6) r(8) r(8), Iconic Special Ability: Dark Kingdom. Thee times per match, you may reroll a die just used in your attack. May be used multiple times on the same die or several dice used in one attack, but each reroll uses up one use of the ability.]

Kunzite - - [(8) (10) (20) (20) r(8) r(10) r(12) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: Dark Kingdom. Thee times per match, you may reroll a die just used in your attack. May be used multiple times on the same die or several dice used in one attack, but each reroll uses up one use of the ability.]

Chibi Moon - Same as Rini in SM 2 - [(2) (4) (6) (6) r(4) r(10) r(12) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: Legendary Silver Crystal. Once per match before attacking, roll a reserve die and add it to your starting dice. At the end of the round, the die turns back into a reserve die and is treated normally.]

Princess Serenity - Same as Princess Serena in SM2 - [(6) (8) (12) (20) r(4) r(10) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Legendary Silver Crystal. Once per match before attacking, roll a reserve die and add it to your starting dice. At the end of the round, the die turns back into a reserve die and is treated normally.]

Esmeraude - - [(6) (8) (12) (20) r(4) r(6) r(10) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: Malefic Black Crystal. Twice per match, instead of adding a Reserve die, you may instead remove from the game one of your opponent's starting dice. You may not use this ability to reduce a player to zero dice.]

Rubeus (Crystal) - - [(4) (4) (12) (12) r(6) r(8) r(20) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Malefic Black Crystal. Twice per match, instead of adding a Reserve die, you may instead remove from the game one of your opponent's starting dice. You may not use this ability to reduce a player to zero dice.]

Saphir - - [(6) (10) (12) (12) r(6) r(8) r(8) r(10), Iconic Special Ability: Malefic Black Crystal. Twice per match, instead of adding a Reserve die, you may instead remove from the game one of your opponent's starting dice. You may not use this ability to reduce a player to zero dice.]

Queen Beryl (Crystal) - - [(4) (8) (12) (20) r(4) r(10) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Iconic Special Ability: Crystal Ball. Twice per match, you may re-roll your Starting Dice Roll or force your opponent to re-roll their Starting Dice Roll.]

King Emdymion (Crystal) - - [(6) (10) (20) (20) r(6) r(8) r(10) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: King's Hologram. Once per match, take one of your captured dice from your opponent's score pile, re-roll it and add it to your Active Dice Pool.]

Sailor Saturn - - [(6) (20) (20) (20) r(4) r(4) r(6) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: Silence Glaive. Whenever the maximum value of one of your dice is re-rolled after an attack, add a duplicate die of that size to your active dice pool and re-roll it.]

Mistress 9 - - [(10) (12) (20) (20) r(8) r(8) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Taioron Crystal. Whenever a 1 is rolled on a d10 or larger after an attack, re-roll the die until it does not show a 1. After the attack, choose one of an opponent's reserve dice, roll it, and add it to your active dice.]

Cyprine and Ptilol - - [(8) (8) (12) (20) r(6) r(6) r(10) r(10), Iconic Special Ability: Split Attack. Three times per match, before attacking, you may remove one of your dice from the game to add two dice half the size of the removed die to your active dice pool and roll them.]

Luna P. - - [(2) (2) (10) (12) r(1) r(4) r(8) r(10), Iconic Special Ability: Mimic Dice. Twice per match, before making a skill attack, you may change the value of a die you control to the value shown on an identically sized die an opponent controls. You must use the changed die in a this turn.]

Kaolinite - - [(10) (12) (12) (20) r(4) r(4) r(8) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Magus Power. Twice per match, before making a power attack, you may swap the values of a die you control and an identically sized die an opponent controls. You must then used the affected die to power attack. You may not power attack the die with which you exchanged values.]

Sailor Uranus - - [(4) (10) (10) (10) r(4) r(8) r(20) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Talisman Power. Twice per match, after attacking, choose an active die an opponent controls. That die cannot be used in an attack their next turn.]

Sailor Neptune - - [(8) (8) (8) (10) r(4) r(6) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Talisman Power. Twice per match, after attacking, choose an active die an opponent controls. That die cannot be used in an attack their next turn.]

Sailor Pluto - - [(8) (12) (12) (12) r(2) r(6) r(10) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Talisman Power. Twice per match, after attacking, choose an active die an opponent controls. That die cannot be used in an attack their next turn.]

This one's huge, so I just pasted the rules once.

Iconic Special Ability: Summon Daimon. Twice per match before an attack, you may convert the die showing the highest value into a Reserve Die. Bring a Daimon token into play (Daimon [(4) (6) (8)] and roll its three dice. Your Active Dice cannot be attacked or otherwise affected and cannot be used in any way until the Daimon leaves the game. You may use the Daimon's dice as though they were your current Active Dice Pool. Your opponent scores normally any dice captured from the Daimon, and any dice captured using the Daimon's dice are placed into your Score as normal. If the Daimon captures your opponent's last die, remove the Daimon and its Active Dice from the game (they will not count towards your score at the end of the round). If the Daimon's last die is captured, remove it from the game. Useable twice per match.

Eudial - - [(4) (4) (8) (12) r(4) r(6) r(12) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: Summon Daimon.]

Mimete - - [(6) (6) (8) (12) r(4) r(8) r(10) r(10), Iconic Special Ability: Summon Daimon.]

Tellu - - [(10) (10) (12) (20) r(6) r(10) r(12) r(12), Iconic Special Ability: Summon Daimon. ]

Viluy - - [(8) (8) (10) (12) r(6) r(8) r(12) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Summon Daimon.]

EDIT: Forgot the promo. Sailor Pluto (promo) - - [(4) (6) (8) (10) r(12) r(12) r(20) r(20), Iconic Special Ability: Garnet Rod. Twice per match, add or subtract one from an attacking die before a power or skill attack, within that die's maximum value. A single die cannot be used to get +/- 2 in a single turn, but two dice in a skill attack can have both activations of Garnet Rod used in the same turn.]

Edit 2: Removed a 100% reprint from the list. Mistyped its dice so I didn't notice it at first. Edit 3: Removed another reprint from the list that Devious found. Thanks, DVS!

[jl8e]

I think Summon Daimon isn't actually as bad as it looks to implement. (Which isn't to say it's not hairy.)

What we need is two new skills: one for the daimon dice, and one that prevents a die with it from attacking or being attacked. (Or using fire, or...)

Then, when someone activates the special power, reserveify their highest die, give all their other dice the inactivated skill, and add the daimon dice. Whenever a daimon die is captured, it checks if it's the last one, and if is, remove the inactivated skill from all the other dice.

Dice should have a method to check if they're inactive that the game engine can useinstead of looking for the skill directly, in case we need to use the same mechanic in future for another reason. (We'd then have two skills that hook the method, and they could be added and removed independently. )

And it should not be possible to use summon daimon while you have one summoned IMO. If you can, you need to decide whether the daimon dice already in play remain active (easier) or also go inactive, then only they reactivate when the new daimon eats it. (Harder, and only doable because the ability is restricted to two uses.)

[jl8e]

While I'm thinking about implementation:

-Tuxedo Mask''s power is potentially a real drag to play against, because it could easily involve interrupting every turn to ask their opponent if they want to use it.

I would implement it as allowing the TM player to designate a protected die at the end of their turn (or not protect any die) This choice is secret from the other player, and the power invocation is only used up if the opponent does attack that die. (A phantom skill on the protected die would be one way to mark it)

-Legendary silver crystal: another one where a phantom skill is probably the way to go

-Silence Glaive: not that bad to implement, but that's a huge ability

-Luna P: another one where I think a phantom skill may be the way to go. Obvious question: what happens if they choose a value that does not allow the die to attack? (We can check, but it'll be a pain.)

-Magus power: probably easiest to do by implementing a specialized power attack. (Pick it, the target, and "magus power attack" from the menu and get a secondary screen where you pick a legal die to steal the value of.

-Talisman power: yet another phantom skill

-Garnet rod: this is actually a lot like fire, though the help can be negative. (If the konstant-fire interaction is done so that you can fire k dice, it may even be able to share the code.)

Several of these, that steal the opponent's reserve dice, add more dice to your pool, or split dice in half, raise the question of whether the change persists between rounds.

When I say "phantom skill", I mean a skill that exists in the game code, but can't be put into button recipes, and may not even display their name on the game screen. (Adding and removing skills is a thing the game engine already does, so can be used in place of an additional flagging system.)

[TheOrgg]

I asked about that via Twitter yesterday. A Daimon cannot summon a Daimon. You could summon the second one after the first one unsummons, though.

The question also is what added 'before attacking' to the text.

[jl8e]

Extra problem with Malefic Black Crystal: as written, you can only exile a starting die, not a reserve die that's been brought in.

I believe that the game engine does not differentiate between a starting die and a formerly-reserve die. Another phantom skill added to reserve dice that are brought in would cover this

[TheOrgg]

Luna P. could usually attack the die it copied; it does not specify the attack requires a two-die skill attack like Socrates does.

Garnet Rod seemed more like a temporary Konstant 1 than a Fire die to me.

As for the stealing, adding more dice, and splitting the dice, I think we need a case-by-case unless you'd just like to ask @Dyskami on Twitter about it. My thoughts is Wiseman keeps the Reserve (he has none of his own), Black Crystal persists (otherwise why restrict it to not removing the last die?), King's Hologram, Silence Glaive, Split Attack, and Talorian Crystal should last just that round. Essentially, if it invokes Reserve dice, I believe it persists.

Thinking about it, maybe we should mention it to Dyskami and mention Buttonweavers in the tweet; I've already confirmed they're okay with the new characters appearing on here, but contractually they cannot supply the artwork for the set.

I'd argue once a Reserve die is brought in, it loses Reserve and is applicable for Malefic Black Crystal. That feels like the intent.

Would the phantom skill removal carry through the whole match? If, say, Luna P uses its ability twice in one match, would those removed phantom skills persist through the rest of the rounds of the match as currently coded?

[jl8e]

Luna P. could usually attack the die it copied; it does not specify the attack requires a two-die skill attack like Socrates does.

There are almost certainly situations where other skills make that impossible. If there aren't now, it's still something to watch out for in the future, and better to have the defensive architecture now. (Stealth dice. A single die skill attack can't touch them, but they can have their value copied.)

I'd argue once a Reserve die is brought in, it loses Reserve and is applicable for Malefic Black Crystal. That feels like the intent.

Without the rest of the rules, it's hard to say. (Having reexamined some of the other powers, I suspect I'm wrong, but can't be sure without looking to see if the rules define starting dice as the ones you start the game with, or start the round with.)

Would the phantom skill removal carry through the whole match? If, say, Luna P uses its ability twice in one match, would those removed phantom skills persist through the rest of the rounds of the match as currently coded?

The match is pretty clearly the entire thing, with the round being the sub-games that one plays.

Also, you don't seem to understand how phantom skills would be used here, but that's ok, because you don't need to; it would be an implementation detail.

[TheOrgg]

Exact from the rulebook on Reserve dice (from the Crystal rules)

"Whenever you lose a round to your opponent, you may move any one of your character's Reserve Dice into your Starting Dice Group for the next round...[jump to relevant part] ...once a Reserve Die is converted to a Starting Die, it remains in play as a Starting die for every subsequent round until the match is over." (SMCDC rules, p. 4) So Starting Dice as defined by the current Sailor Moon rules are what you're rolling at the beginning of the round.

Good point about Stealth. Should we ask Dyskami if the intent was a Socrates-style multi-die Skill Attack? (Yes, Socrates is two-die, but I hope my point is clear)

[irilyth]

FWIW, I don't see a lot to be gained by implementing a skill as a "phantom skill" -- if it's implemented, why not let people use it on new button?

[TheOrgg]

That's my view on things like the Buzzing Weasel's Screw die and the Kubla set dice, but here I think it's more of a way to make the (overpowered in normal play) ability functional. It doesn't label it specifically, but lets the ability function.

I think I'm going to put a related issue up that deals with how we could approach the Iconic and McGuffin abilities.

[jl8e]

FWIW, I don't see a lot to be gained by implementing a skill as a "phantom skill" -- if it's implemented, why not let people use it on new button?

The phantom skills are how I'd implement the various temporary attributes and die-behavior modifications created by the button specials.

Nobody wants a skill "this die is completely inactive until your daimon dice go away"; it doesn't even make sense outside of the context of that special, but implementing it as a skill is very likely the best way to do it in the game engine.

[TheOrgg]

So, I did a little work for the images in this set, assuming it'd be activated like the other Sailor sets are.

What do ya'll want to do with identical buttons with different names? Ones with the exact same recipe, Iconic Skill, and Name I skipped (that was four of them). I've now found two that are identical except for their name. Should they be dropped from the set or not?

[dwvanstone]

Could you include a link to the wiki page in this issue? I'd like to review the buttons there.

[TheOrgg]

https://buttonmen.fandom.com/wiki/Sailor_Moon

With that and the list above (the Crystals aren't on the wiki as they're available at retail currently) you should be able to spot any other duplicates. The two I spotted were Princess Serenity/Princess Serina and Chibi Moon/Rini. There may be more. How I spotted them was I noticed their dice were the same, then checked their Iconics.

[jl8e]

I see no reason to exclude any buttons that only differ in name; it's not like it's a new issue

[TheOrgg]

Why I want to skip them is I think they don't add much if anything (and since this is the exact same theme, just different translations of a name, it adds even less). Secondly, it saves me twenty minutes of work.

[blackshadowshade]

I think having different translations of the same name is not really worth it, we should decide on one that we wish to use.

[blackshadowshade]

We could include the alternate name in the flavour text if people wanted to.

[TheOrgg]

I'd stick with the original sets and mention the button was reprinted in the Crystal set / was reprinted in the Crystal set as (name).

Why? Because this is what they're going to look like-- they're not pretty. I had to work with the files from BGG, and most pictures were rather aukward.

Unless someone wants to watch the new Sailor Moon and find me good pics that fit well into the button frames with the Iconic Ability box, this'll be the best I can do.

[TheOrgg]

Just for my curiosity, I redid the shrinking and exporting with the settings that take a long time. It gets a little better, but not by a ton.

[TheOrgg]

These need to be checked for accuracy (assuming you can make out the numbers) and if there's a spelling error, let me know. The correct spelling should be above, but I'll check them against the BGG images if needed.

Also check to make sure all that are needed are here and that there's none missing.

Wiki page is above if you want to check for exact duplication (found one more while making these psudo-buttons, Prince Diamond). Yes, I know these aren't great, but with the image sources I had it was the best I could do.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/226085/sailor-moon-crystal-dice-challenge/images https://boardgamegeek.com/image/4681674/sailor-moon-crystal-dice-challenge-season-iii

Also included the Damion (or whatever) from the rulebook that's online, just in case you want it to actually replace the button image when the ability is activated. Funny enough, it looks better than any of the others.