Consider hackmd.io for workshops instead of etherpads

[tracykteal]

In this thread http://lists.software-carpentry.org/pipermail/discuss/2017-July/005303.html @ctb introduces hackmd.io and the follow ups discuss some of the strengths of hackmd.io as an alternative to ether pads for collaborative document editing during workshops.

We might pilot trying out hackmd.io in workshops.

[ctb]

Note that @luizirber has set up a lab-hosted hackmd here https://hackmd.oxli.org/, and so we can experiment with the allowfreeurl setting that Brandon Curtis suggested using to make nice URLs. Luiz, any comments on stability/backups/etc of this site?

[luizirber]

I didn't stress test the setup, but I used docker-compose to deploy it (with an nginx server in front of it to expose the local ports to the internet, using SSL from letsencrypt).

Instructions: https://github.com/hackmdio/docker-hackmd They also have a backup section (which basically means dumping the database to a file), as well as a restore section (loading the file dump into the DB again).

I can write up a small blog post with all the steps if people are interested.

[luizirber]

I added the addfreeurl setting, and it is working now: https://hackmd.oxli.org/test_for_freeurls

[ctb]

Something that has turned out to be very important: you can easily download the markdown from hackmd and then commit it to a github repo. This means we are able to take hackpads from workshops and save them as part of the workshop record in version control. We're doing this for angus.

[raynamharris]

I also like hackmd.io because printing rendered markdowns files is so easy! Printing md files stored on GitHub doesn't work nearly as well (see image).

Also, I think this would be great for taking minutes at meetings because the transfer of notes from hackmd.io to GitHub is seemless whereas the Etherpad to GitHub transfer requires reformatting.

[tracykteal]

It looks like it doesn't have the ability to have the chat/comments on the side like etherpads. Is that right?

[ctb]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 08:34:42AM -0700, Tracy Teal wrote:

It looks like it doesn't have the ability to have the chat/comments on the side like etherpads. Is that right?

Yes, I believe so.

[tracykteal]

I think we've gotten used to that feature, but not sure how important it actually is. We'll have to try it in a couple meetings.

[mickley]

@tracykteal In my workshop experiences, the chat function is really critical, perhaps even more so than the etherpad itself. Especially with more novice groups, adoption of the collaborative note-taking approach is slow (e.g., older people prefer paper). But the quick questions in the etherpad seem to be more universally accepted.

I'd also posit that the extra cognitive load for markdown would further discourage collaborative note-taking for some people. I like markdown a lot and it's something well worth spending time on, but having this happen at the very beginning of the workshop may not be ideal. For the teaching of markdown though, I think hackmd.io looks fantastic.

[ctb]

side note - we used Slack for messaging, with the hope of continuing to have a community after our workshops. during-workshop slack seemed to work really well.

[mickley]

@ctb: that's a great idea, especially for younger crowds.

[richyvk]

Built in chat with etherpad is good. Also, sometimes you don't want to have to write md - just write - another plus for etherpad e.g. urls; lists etc - would they all need to be correctly md formatted to work?

[ctb]

So far I've been impressed with hackmd's interpretation of text -

• URLs just work
• lists seem to work ok, within the same limits of formatting as etherpad
• free text entry works as expected, i.e. type until you want a paragraph break and then hit enter to get a new paragraph.

Personally I've never seen the chat work out well in etherpad, and I vastly prefer the notification and UI of slack, but YMMV. I also find the hackmd UI to be less cluttered for note taking; again, personal preference.

We have been using hackmd for one- and two-week workshops where we have more ability to acclimatize attendees to things like slack, so that is maybe another consideration that does not apply to the two-day workshops.

[tracykteal]

I think there a lot of different considerations, but we often don't know how things work until we try. It would be great if anyone was interested in trying this out for a one to two day workshop and reporting back on this thread how it worked.

I'm teaching a one-day workshop on Friday, so I'll try it and report back. I also tend to use the chat feature of the etherpad, so interested to see how it goes.

[katrinleinweber]

@evamarik, me and a few others used it in the 1st Marburg Library Carpentry workshop: https://hackmd.io/uwz3n3GDQjGGPhwUNsS93A?view

IMHO, it worked well and it just looks so much nicer than Etherpads. Also, a potential, subliminal Markdown learning opportunity ;-)

[raynamharris]

Also, much easier to create a markdown archive of the notes taken and keep them in a central or distributed location.

[fmichonneau]

The template supports the use of etherpad, hackmd, google docs. This conversation can continue elsewhere though and it's always interesting to hear from people who test other tools for collaborative note-taking in workshops.