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cbucher / console

This is a modified version of Console 2 for a better experience under Windows Vista/7/8/10 and a better visual rendering.
https://github.com/cbucher/console/wiki
GNU General Public License v2.0
2.93k stars 231 forks source link

Windows 11 Terminal in Background #547

Open dpkristensen opened 1 year ago

dpkristensen commented 1 year ago

I was recently forced to upgrade to Windows 11, and it now opens all console applications in Terminal. This is a tabbed console app similar in functionality to Console 2, but I would like to keep using Console 2.

I found that in Terminal, changing the Settings->Startup->Default Terminal Application from "Let Windows Decide" to "Windows Console Host" will make it go away.

Consider this a feature request to perhaps detect if this setting is not Windows Console Host, and then change the setting when detected.

Expected Behavior

Console2 opened by itself.

Actual Behavior

Windows Terminal opens in background

Steps to reproduce

  1. Have Windows 11
  2. Open Console2

Diagnostic Report

When reporting a bug you must provide a diagnostic report. If you are not able to create a diagnostic report, explain why. Privacy is not a valid explanation! The report is human readable and private data can be masked.

ConsoleZ aero amd64 1.19.0.19104
Windows 10 (64 bits) [10.0.22621]
is elevated? no
UAC prefix "Administrator: "
Tab (active): cmd-64
  View (active): 1. cmd-64
  is elevated? no
  input code page 437
  output code page 437
  Windows console font
font index: 0
face name: Consolas
font familly: 4 DONTCARE true type
font weight: 0
font size: width=0 height=16
max window size: cols=80 rows=30
  ConsoleZ font
GetFontLanguageInfo returns 262144.
The font contains extra glyphs not normally accessible using the code page.

Monitors 2
+ Flags 1  primary
  DeviceID \\?\DISPLAY#ACI23A2#7&341f587f&0&UID512#{e6f07b5f-ee97-4a90-b076-33f57bf4eaa7}
  DeviceKey \Registry\Machine\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4d36e96e-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}\0001
  DeviceName \\.\DISPLAY1\Monitor0
  DeviceString Generic PnP Monitor
  StateFlags 3
  Rect (0,0)x(1920,1080)
  Work (0,0)x(1920,1032)
  DPI (per monitor: yes) X=96 Y=96
+ Flags 0
  DeviceID \\?\DISPLAY#ACI23A2#7&341f587f&0&UID516#{e6f07b5f-ee97-4a90-b076-33f57bf4eaa7}
  DeviceKey \Registry\Machine\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4d36e96e-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}\0002
  DeviceName \\.\DISPLAY2\Monitor0
  DeviceString Generic PnP Monitor
  StateFlags 3
  Rect (1920,0)x(3840,1080)
  Work (1920,0)x(3840,1080)
  DPI (per monitor: yes) X=96 Y=96
System dpi 96
System metrics
  SM_CXSMICON        16
  SM_CYSMICON        16
  SM_CXICON          32
  SM_CYICON          32
  SM_CXVIRTUALSCREEN 3840
  SM_CYVIRTUALSCREEN 1080
  SM_CYVIRTUALSCREEN 1080
Settings file C:\Users\dkristensen\AppData\Roaming\Console\console.xml
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="yes"?>
<settings lang="auto" icon_size="0">
    <console shell="" init_dir="" refresh="100" change_refresh="10" rows="25" columns="80" buffer_rows="500" buffer_columns="0" start_hidden="0" save_size="0">
        <colors background_text_opacity="255">
            <color id="0" r="0" g="0" b="0"/>
            <color id="1" r="0" g="0" b="128"/>
            <color id="2" r="0" g="150" b="0"/>
            <color id="3" r="0" g="150" b="150"/>
            <color id="4" r="170" g="25" b="25"/>
            <color id="5" r="128" g="0" b="128"/>
            <color id="6" r="128" g="128" b="0"/>
            <color id="7" r="192" g="192" b="192"/>
            <color id="8" r="128" g="128" b="128"/>
            <color id="9" r="0" g="100" b="255"/>
            <color id="10" r="0" g="255" b="0"/>
            <color id="11" r="0" g="255" b="255"/>
            <color id="12" r="255" g="50" b="50"/>
            <color id="13" r="255" g="0" b="255"/>
            <color id="14" r="255" g="255" b="0"/>
            <color id="15" r="255" g="255" b="255"/>
        </colors>
        <cursor style="0" r="255" g="255" b="255"/>
        <background type="0" r="0" g="0" b="0">
            <image file="" relative="0" extend="0" position="0">
                <tint opacity="0" r="0" g="0" b="0"/></image></background></console>
    <appearance>
        <font name="Courier New" size="10" extra_width="0" bold="0" italic="0" smoothing="0" bold_intensified="0" italic_intensified="0" ligature="0">
            <color use="0" r="0" g="0" b="0"/></font>
        <window title="ConsoleZ" icon="" main_title_format="?U([%u] )?N({%u} )%m?s( - %s)" tab_title_format="%n. ?U([%u] )?N({%u} )%t?s( - %s)" use_tab_icon="1" use_tab_title="1" trim_tab_titles="20" trim_tab_titles_right="0"/>
        <fullscreen start_in_fullscreen="0" fullscreen_monitor="0">
            <controls show_menu="1" show_toolbar="1" show_searchbar="1" show_statusbar="1" show_tabs="1" hide_single_tab="1" tabs_on_bottom="0" hide_tab_icons="0" hide_tab_close_button="0" hide_tab_new_button="0" show_scrollbars="1"/>
            <transparency type="0" active_alpha="255" inactive_alpha="255" r="0" g="0" b="0" active="1"/></fullscreen>
        <controls show_menu="1" show_toolbar="1" show_searchbar="1" show_statusbar="1" show_tabs="1" hide_single_tab="0" tabs_on_bottom="0" hide_tab_icons="0" hide_tab_close_button="0" hide_tab_new_button="0" show_scrollbars="1"/>
        <styles caption="1" resizable="1" taskbar_button="1" border="1" inside_border="2" split_bar_size="0" tray_icon="1" quake_like="0" quake_animation_time="300" jumplist="0" integrated_ime="0" hide_when_inactive="0" per_monitor_dpi="0" keep_view_theme="0">
            <selection_color r="255" g="255" b="255"/>
            <highlight_color r="191" g="191" b="191"/></styles>
        <position x="-1" y="-1" save_position="0" w="-1" h="-1" save_size="0" z_order="0" dock="-1" snap="-1" save_state="0" state="-1"/>
        <transparency type="0" active_alpha="255" inactive_alpha="255" r="0" g="0" b="0" active="1"/></appearance>
    <behavior>
        <copy_paste copy_on_select="0" clear_on_copy="1" sensitive_copy="1" no_wrap="1" eol_spaces="1" trim_spaces="1" rtf="1" copy_newline_char="0" include_left_delimiter="0" include_right_delimiter="0" left_delimiters=" ([" right_delimiters=" )]"/>
        <scroll page_scroll_rows="0"/>
        <tab_highlight flashes="3" stay_highligted="1"/>
        <environment inherit="1" sync="1"/>
        <focus follow_mouse="0"/>
        <instance allow_multi="1"/>
        <clone use_current_dir="0"/>
        <search match_case="0" match_whole_word="0"/>
        <runas use_credprov="1"/>
        <close allow_closing_last_view="0" exit_on_closing_of_last_tab="1" confirm_closing_multiple_views="1" save_workspace_on_exit="0"/></behavior>
    <hotkeys use_scroll_lock="1">
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="83" command="settings"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="112" command="help"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="1" extended="0" code="115" command="exit"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="112" command="newtab1"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="113" command="newtab2"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="114" command="newtab3"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="115" command="newtab4"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="116" command="newtab5"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="117" command="newtab6"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="118" command="newtab7"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="119" command="newtab8"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="120" command="newtab9"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="121" command="newtab10"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="122" command="newtab11"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="123" command="newtab12"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="49" command="switchtab1"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="50" command="switchtab2"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="51" command="switchtab3"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="52" command="switchtab4"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="53" command="switchtab5"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="54" command="switchtab6"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="55" command="switchtab7"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="56" command="switchtab8"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="57" command="switchtab9"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="48" command="switchtab10"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="9" command="nexttab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="1" alt="0" extended="0" code="9" command="prevtab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="movetableft"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="movetabright"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="87" command="closetab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="82" command="renametab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="clonetab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="1" code="34" command="nextview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="1" code="33" command="prevview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="1" extended="1" code="37" command="leftview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="1" extended="1" code="39" command="rightview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="1" extended="1" code="38" command="topview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="1" extended="1" code="40" command="bottomview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="dechsize"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="inchsize"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="decvsize"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="incvsize"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="1" alt="0" extended="0" code="87" command="closeview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="detachview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="maximizeview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="restoreview"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="attach"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="1" alt="0" extended="0" code="79" command="splithoriz"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="1" alt="0" extended="0" code="69" command="splitvert"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="splitswap"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="clone"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="moveinnewtab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="122" command="fullscreen"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="96" command="zoom100"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="107" command="zoominc"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="109" command="zoomdec"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="71" command="groupall"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="1" alt="0" extended="0" code="71" command="ungroupall"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="84" command="grouptab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="1" alt="0" extended="0" code="84" command="ungrouptab"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="clear"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="1" code="45" command="copy"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="65" command="selectall"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" extended="1" code="46" command="clear_selection"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="1" alt="0" extended="1" code="45" command="paste"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="paste_selection"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="stopscroll"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="resumescroll"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textselleft"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textselright"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textseltop"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textselbottom"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textselhome"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textselend"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textselpageup"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="textselpagedown"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colselleft"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colselright"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colseltop"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colselbottom"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colselhome"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colselend"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colselpageup"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="colselpagedown"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollrowup"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollrowdown"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollpageup"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollpagedown"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollcolleft"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollcolright"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollpageleft"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="scrollpageright"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="find"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="findnext"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="findprev"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="switchtransparency"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="alwaysontop"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="1" shift="1" alt="0" extended="0" code="112" command="dumpbuffer"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="cmdMenu1"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="cmdMenu2"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="cmdMenu3"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="cmdSnippets"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="ctrlC"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="wspload"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="wspsave"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="fwdmouse"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd1"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd2"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd3"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd4"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd5"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd6"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd7"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd8"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd9"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="externalcmd10"/>
        <hotkey ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" extended="0" code="0" command="activate" win="0"/>
    </hotkeys>
    <external_commands>
    </external_commands>
    <mouse>
        <actions>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="0" name="copy"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="1" name="select"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="0" name="select_column"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="3" name="paste"/>
            <action ctrl="1" shift="0" alt="0" button="1" name="drag"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="4" name="link"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="2" name="menu"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="0" name="menu2"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="0" name="menu3"/>
            <action ctrl="0" shift="0" alt="0" button="0" name="snippets"/>
        </actions></mouse>
    <snippets dir=""/>
    <tabs>
        <tab title="cmd-64" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="%windir%\system32\cmd.exe" init_dir="%HOMEDRIVE%%HOMEPATH%" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="0"/>
        </tab>
        <tab title="cmd-64-admin" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="%windir%\system32\cmd.exe" init_dir="%HOMEDRIVE%%HOMEPATH%" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="1"/>
        </tab>
        <tab title="cmd-32" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="%windir%\SysWOW64\cmd.exe" init_dir="%HOMEDRIVE%%HOMEPATH%" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="0"/>
        </tab>
        <tab title="git-bash" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="&quot;C:\Program Files\Git\bin\bash.exe&quot; --login -i" init_dir="C:\Projects" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="0"/>
        </tab>
        <tab title="git-bash-gnuarm9" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="&quot;C:\Program Files\Git\bin\bash.exe&quot; --login --rcfile &quot;D:\Programs\bash\rcfiles\gnuarm9.rc&quot; -i" init_dir="C:\Projects" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="0"/>
        </tab>
        <tab title="J-Link" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="&quot;C:\Program Files\SEGGER\JLink\JLink.exe&quot;" init_dir="C:\Projects" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="0"/>
            <colors background_text_opacity="255">
                <color id="0" r="0" g="0" b="0"/>
                <color id="1" r="0" g="0" b="128"/>
                <color id="2" r="0" g="150" b="0"/>
                <color id="3" r="0" g="150" b="150"/>
                <color id="4" r="170" g="25" b="25"/>
                <color id="5" r="128" g="0" b="128"/>
                <color id="6" r="128" g="128" b="0"/>
                <color id="7" r="192" g="192" b="192"/>
                <color id="8" r="128" g="128" b="128"/>
                <color id="9" r="0" g="120" b="255"/>
                <color id="10" r="0" g="255" b="0"/>
                <color id="11" r="0" g="255" b="255"/>
                <color id="12" r="255" g="50" b="50"/>
                <color id="13" r="255" g="0" b="255"/>
                <color id="14" r="255" g="255" b="0"/>
                <color id="15" r="255" g="255" b="255"/>
        </colors>
        </tab>
        <tab title="ps-64" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="%SystemRoot%\system32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\powershell.exe" init_dir="%HOMEDRIVE%%HOMEPATH%" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="0"/>
        </tab>
        <tab title="ps-64-admin" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="%SystemRoot%\system32\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\powershell.exe" init_dir="%HOMEDRIVE%%HOMEPATH%" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="1"/>
        </tab>
        <tab title="ps-32" use_default_icon="1">
            <console shell="%SystemRoot%\SysWOW64\WindowsPowerShell\v1.0\powershell.exe" init_dir="%HOMEDRIVE%%HOMEPATH%" priority="2" run_as_user="0" user="" net_only="0" run_as_admin="0"/>
        </tab>
    </tabs></settings>

Crash Report

None

dpkristensen commented 1 year ago

For additional reference, the setting is also available through the "Developer" menu in Windows Settings. I can find the handler here:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\SystemSettings\SettingId\SystemSettings_Developer_Mode_Setting_DefaultTerminalApp

But there's no indication of its value; must be stored somewhere else, but I am not familiar with how this API works.

DerellLicht commented 1 year ago

I found that in Terminal, changing the Settings->Startup->Default Terminal Application from "Let Windows Decide" to "Windows Console Host" will make it go away.

Thank you, @dpkristensen , I had the same experience (of course), and this fix worked beautifully!! Thank you for figuring it out, I wouldn't have had a clue where to start!