Weird stealth bug

[Klimpb]

This happens randomly, I'm able to see rogues at a far distance when they stealth vanish, happens once in a while

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ivH9OYIWU&hd=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZn13D_RurM&hd=1

[dylanraga]

Not a bug. Working as intended. Unit info updates at an interval.

[CarboCorecraft]

@dylanraga It's not working as intended for sure.

First of all i agree that you can sometimes see stealthed rogue/druid (due to stealth beeing updated in intervals), but there is a range in which you're able to do that. Otherwise everyone would be able to see stealthed rogue/druid from afar (ofc in intervals).

Second, vanish provides stealthed rogue with additional improved stealth. Default Stealth(Rank 4) gives rogue +300 stealth and Vanish (Rank 3) gives him additional +370 stealth (proof: http://web.archive.org/web/20080701084111/http://shadowpanther.net/stealth.htm). In conclusion, after using vanish, the area in which you're able to see stealthed rogue (in intervals) should be reduced (compared to default stealth area) by more then a half.

So in my opinion, Sd shouldn't see these rogues from such a distance.

p.s. Does any one know if other "stealth improvement" & "stealth detection" items/enchants/consumables/spells (especially human racial: Perception) from that shadowpanther.net/stealth list were tested on CoreCraft and they work properly ?

I can test them later, but i don't want to waste my time if they work properly and it's no need to test them.

[dylanraga]

Proof that it's not limited to stealth detection range: https://youtu.be/cY4pgtfU4WM?t=7m18s

Rogue was able to been seen from across the map shortly after the shadowstep, and significantly afar from traversing alone.

Proof that Vanish visibility does not update immediately: https://youtu.be/EwLOcI4h_kg?t=3m21s (rocketed out of vanish) https://youtu.be/EwLOcI4h_kg?t=9m38s (rogue was behind priest, which is not detectable) Happens again at around 10:30, and so-on.

Rocket Gloves & Vanish is the primal counter-argument example. Some induction time If you played PvP competitively or very enthusiastically on retail, then you may have come across a certain phenomenon against Rogues. If you're against a rogue, Rocket Gloves is one of your tools against his stealth game, whether it be spamming it during that Gouge->restealth to knock him out of it, or some other CC into a restealth. Most importantly, you may have used it to try to get them out of Vanish. Rocket Gloves, as like any other projectile, of course is vanishable. But the goal is use Rocket Gloves AFTER they vanished to knock them out, and if you did it successfully, you would notice the casting animation went off, gloves went on CD, but the rocket was invisible. Video proof for that is hard to find, but I managed to find one in a link above. Now, think: The only way you can possibly do this is if the vanished rogue was visible for a moment after vanishing. This whole process in general is not limited to Rocket Gloves, but used as an example since 45y (Rocket Glove's range) is far beyond any stealth detection range. If you're up-to-date with the vanish game, you would know that you can "X the other rogue's Vanish" by performing X spell AFTER the vanish happened, otherwise the other rogue would have "successfully vanished your X", due to vanish being cast after X spell during the interval before X's aura application, with the most popular examples being Cheap Shot and Blind.

More induction Another phenomenon is the smoke that appears when you Vanish. Very rarely does the smoke NOT occur. The smoke is an animation of vanish, which you can only see BECAUSE there is a delay between the cast and the invisibility; this also applies to the spellcast visual of Vanish (the "raising of the hands"). This is a lot harder to prove since retail doesn't work that way, but you can actually see this NOT in effect by playing on any private server that doesn't implement the stealth intervals, and you will see that a rogue that vanishes, from another's perspective, will simply disappear without a cast animation or the vanish smoke.

@Peonstomperx For all those vanishes, you could clearly see the Vanish buff on the rogue, which is only possible if the rogue was still visible after vanish. You also managed to post proof of Blind a Vanish on that Neilyo video: @1:49, Neilyo Blinds the other rogue AFTER Vanish, which causes him to be Blinded out of it.

WIth the proof it's undeniable that Rogues are still visible after Vanish. What's variable is that interval; it could be too long on CoreCraft, it could be just fine, but these are values we cannot really determine, but estimate, other than selfless combat events which were given to us by Blizzard.

I may have to talked to @ccshiro about this previously, but the map should update Unit Info (health, mana, death state, visibility, model/appearance [applied mounts, poly, etc], stance, spell availability) at an interval, and from my past experience, 200ms seemed to be the sweet spot. Unfortunately I was not able to make it to the previous test, but hopefully i could test these things more in-depth later on.

[dylanraga]

@Peonstomperx You know it exists, not everyone does, thus the wall of text, which one doesn't even have to read to get my point. You're reading my post as if it's specifically catering to you and only you, don't do that. OP generally reported being able to see rogues after vanish, which I correctly provided proof of.

@CarboCorecraft mentioned that stealthed targets can be visible, but only up to a certain range, and if that range exists it might as well be non-existent as I provided proof for the visibility of a stealthed rogue across nearly the entire arena via Shadow Step. You also claimed a similar thing, the intervals only applying within your stealth detection range, which I disproved with video #1 and video #3, and your 'not sure about vanish in close range' being exemplified in video #3.

The latter two videos I posted were just simple proofs that rogues are visible after Vanish; completely in compliance with OP's report.

I do not believe the point of this report is the amount of time it takes for vanishing rogues to disappear; OP mentions nothing of it, only of the visibility of rogues after vanish. I did argue in my previous post about that possibility of variance on the interval.

[CarboCorecraft]

Proof that it's not limited to stealth detection range: https://youtu.be/cY4pgtfU4WM?t=7m18s

• rezzybaws

You only proved, with that Hydra 9 vid, that you deny yourself. As you can see, Hydra was able to detect stealthed rogue only when he was close to him (for me it was ~ 5 yards) and after that happened, Hydra was able to see him until the stealth detection interval faded away.

Moreover, don't trash this thread with non TBC vids. First of all, please lets try to evaluate what was stealth & stealth detection mechanics in TBC expansion.

Proof that Vanish visibility does not update immediately: https://youtu.be/EwLOcI4h_kg?t=3m21s (rocketed out of vanish).

Rocket Gloves & Vanish is the primal counter-argument example.

But the goal is use Rocket Gloves AFTER they vanished to knock them out, and if you did it successfully, you would notice the casting animation went off, gloves went on CD, but the rocket was invisible. Video proof for that is hard to find, but I managed to find one in a link above. Now, think: The only way you can possibly do this is if the vanished rogue was visible for a moment after vanishing.

• rezzybaws

I think that you confused game mechanics with this example, because:

1. It wasn't rocket that made rogue unstealth. It was the other rogue that used Fan of Knives to do it.
2. Priest didn't use rocket gloves "after" the vanish. Rogue wasn't "visible" after vanishing. Rocked Gloves procced due to intentional delay mechanics (alike in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7wwsXO2Njc&t=0m58s).

You also managed to post proof of Blind a Vanish on that Neilyo video: @1:49, Neilyo Blinds the other rogue AFTER Vanish, which causes him to be Blinded out of it.

WIth the proof it's undeniable that Rogues are still visible after Vanish.

• rezzybaws

Neilyo didn't blind other rogue "after" vanish, they used blind and vanish in the same time due to intentional delay mechanics (alike in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7wwsXO2Njc&t=0m58s).

I think it's like this, Vanish doesn't use any stealth detection intervals, it always makes you disappear after approx 300 or 400 ms. Stealth detection checks every couple of sec if you're supposed to see someone and updates from that, if you spot someone then you will see him until the next interval(which checks range and direction you're facing) or until he vanishes.

• Peonstomperx

I think you're right. It's not stealth that should use some intervals (to be sometimes invisible and sometimes visible ...), it's stealth detection mechanics that should use intervals (to "switch on" for some period and to "switch off" for another period).

Therefore there is no difference between stealth and vanish (both should instantly trigger stealth mode) with one exception:

• Stealth should provide rogue with 300 stealth points (it's + 74 effective stealth levels),
• Vanish should provide rogue with 300 + 370 stealth points (it's + 134 effective stealth levels).

So what's the conclusion in reference to this thread and Sd's vids ? Well it depends, for example:

1. Whether Sd was in the interval when stealth detection is on or not,
2. Whether the rogue (Sd's target) that used vanish and still remain visible was specced 5/5 Master of Deception or not ? But one thing for sure: Sd's second vid shows that when rogue used vanish, Sd was able to see him from afar (for me it was like ~ 25 yards). So even if that rogue would be 0/5 Master of Deception, he shouldn't be seen from such distance (5/5 Master of Deception gives only 15 stealth points, so only + 3 effective stealth levels).

It's hard to evaluate what was the formula used by Blizzard for TBC, that was responsible for calculation: how much yards should be for +1 effective stealth level, however i found few clues, e.g. this german site: https://web.archive.org/web/20080317140837/http://wow.ingame.de/guides/sonstige/stealth.php where author mentioned about ~ 6,5 yards "default" stealth detection range, unfortunately it was measured in vanilla but it's always something).

I think, that better way would be to measure (is it possible ? I noticed that Barroth was able to do it in #817) the distance in this vid:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc9UzUCpF8&t=1m56s -> stealth detection distance without Catseye Ultra Goggles,
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc9UzUCpF8&t=2m12s -> at this moment he wears Catseye Ultra Goggles (these goggles provide 18 stealth points, so it's + 3,6 effective stealth levels),
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc9UzUCpF8&t=3m23s -> stealth detection distance with Catseye ultra Goggles

Therefore i think that for someone, who doesn't wear any "stealth detection" items/talents, rogue with vanish should be visible (during stealth detection interval) only within ~ 3 yards.

[dylanraga]

I don't see how I'm "denying" myself with the first Hydra 9 video. It was PROOF that you're able to see rogues that were out of your STEALTH DETECTION; this didn't prove it for EVERY CASE but it flat-out proved that statement, don't put any "what-ifs" or twists onto it, I simply proved: it is possible to see a stealthed rogue out of your stealth detection. There and flat-out.

Second, Rocket Gloves undeniable was cast AFTER Vanish. We can't say whether ONLY FoK or RG made him unstealth because we don't know, it was probably both. http://i.imgur.com/6PtRO7S.jpg Rocket Gloves was still highlighted, waiting to be sent to the server, yet Vanish/Stealth buff is already up, and the rogue is STILL visible (for multiple frames, actually)

As for the Neilyo video, http://i.imgur.com/LaS2elm.png Frame-per-frame, Neilyo's blind was sent the same time it was highlighted, which must mean he had incredibly low ping (<33). That aside, that image shows Blind being highlighted (aka key-up on blind) WHILE the other rogue was in vanish. They weren't at the same time, Vanish was undeniably first, which makes sense

Let me tell you WHY Vanish won't always make you invisible after 400ms. Things don't work on IMPLICIT delays, they work on a buffer system, looping every 400ms. This means that Vanish can AT MOST turn the rogue invisible after 400ms if the rogue managed to vanish at the very beginning of the buffer. There are some instances where the rogue can turn invisible almost instantaneously, and some nearly half a second.

Stealth detection checks every couple of sec if you're supposed to see someone and updates from that, if you spot someone then you will see him until the next interval(which checks range and direction you're facing)

This is correct.

or until he vanishes.

This is not. It follows the same rules.

I think you're right. It's not stealth that should use some intervals (to be sometimes invisible and sometimes visible ...), it's stealth detection mechanics that should use intervals (to "switch on" for some period and to "switch off" for another period).

Therefore there is no difference between stealth and vanish (both should instantly trigger stealth mode) with one exception:

You're on the right track, but you're using the perspective. We already know stealth isn't what's on the interval, but it's also not 'stealth detection'. Stealth Detection is a STATIC thing, and it's used in consideration to see stealthed targets. What's checked for every 400ms is the VISIBILITY of the rogue, stealth detection into consideration. If a rogue stealths out of your STEALTH DETECTION range, he's still visible until the 400ms loop finishes, because he was still declared 'visible' before stealthing, and will remain so until the visibility loop finishes. Similarly, if a rogue is out of your stealth detection, and invisible, and moves within your stealth detection, he won't be visible until the 400ms loop refreshes. Vanish and stealth aren't any different on the loop.

I'm also confused on what I'm arguing now. One says that "we all know" that Vanish visibility delay exists, yet later on someone says Vanish should make you invisible immediately. And I provided undeniable proof that Vanished rogues should be visible, just not the time-frame for how long.

[Klimpb]

Perception range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9PWxTB0x5g&hd=1 Not sure which specs these people use etc.

[justinbeaver]

Track Hidden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeEcutClSXo&feature=youtu.be&t=1088

[justinbeaver]

Prowl

https://youtu.be/G4RwjpLvbBY?t=403

[justinbeaver]

Track hidden + Paranoia Search And Destroy, Hunter/warlock 2200rating 2v2 11:35 WCM link: http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=92771