Deadly Throw, pvp gloves silence

[ccshiro]

Quite some time ago we got a report that the silence on rogue's pvp gloves when using deadly throw should happen instantly (when cast), not when the spell reaches its target. The evidence was sufficient for us and we implemented it that way.

This test the opposite was reported, that this shouldn't be the case. The below is proof linked by Whatsthis against the instant silence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcpxr4WisKM&list=WL#t=272 at 4:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCWyUIKMefo at 0:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoymvx2Dhmo (at 1:40 and at 3:30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOj88AYnvCc (at 6:43) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyWX3O2LJ0Y (at 0:13)

(NOTE: I have not had the chance to check the videos yet.)

[Whatsthis880]

-On the first video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcpxr4WisKM&list=WL#t=272 (at 4:35) we can see at 0.25 speed that the rogue is using his energy for deadly throw before the priest starts to cast his mind blast, and he gets interrupted once the knife touches him.

-With https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCWyUIKMefo shows exactly what I mean : at both 0:52 and 2:00 the rogue uses his deadly throw when the mage starts to cast, and it is possible to fake cast. At 2:10 we can see that the knife silences at the moment when it hits the target.

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoymvx2Dhmo (at 1:40 and 3:30) is related with videos that show the silence at the moment when the knife is cast (and not reaches the target) like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgzXvE8PHHI at 3:00. As the "animation" on the target happens at the exact same time as the silence, the first video from this paragraph shows clearly that the animation on the target applies at the moment when it touches the target and not when cast (I hope you understood it's hard to explain ! ).

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOj88AYnvCc (at 6:43) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyWX3O2LJ0Y (at 0:13) are trickier, but reflect the same idea.

[Thepump]

Couldn't it just be that it does silence instantly upon cast but because of the spell delay, in some videos you'll see them being silenced instantly upon cast and sometimes when it lands etc. Since the animation is quite fast it could very well be the case.

[ccshiro]

The ways it could work are: a) Deadly throw damage always comes before the silence. b) Deadly throw damage and silence always come at the same time as the silence. c) Deadly throw damage sometimes come at the same time as the silence, sometimes after the silence.

Seeing the videos I think it's clear that a) is not possible, leaving b) or c). Spell delay could account for all cases in the videos, making c) possible. I think it's hard to see if there's a video that disproves b) or not, however.

Thoughts?

[ccshiro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgzXvE8PHHI at 3:00

Watched this one again at x0.25 speed. It's actually imo pretty clear that in this one the interrupt happens before the damage and debuff. That would rule out b) leaving c) as the only option. c) is also the current implementation we have.

In other words, I think it's settled this is not a bug and working correctly atm.

[sasfog]

I think that spell delay could be affecting the interrupt effect. Here are some more clips: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7wwsXO2Njc#t=4m15s (4 min 15 sec) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YdW9BPIBD4#t=13m8s (13 min 8 sec, there are multiple cases to look out for in the duel) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPi0olAmQUk#t=10m25s (10 min 25sec)

[ccshiro]

I'm going to close this as not a bug.

[Klimpb]

Should re-open this and take a closer look at what sasfog previously posted, explained below.

Takes 21 frames out of 25fps ≈ 0,84sec from casting Deadly Throw and for it to have interrupted the cast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7wwsXO2Njc#t=4m15s

Here he actually starts his cast AFTER he has taken damage by the Deadly Throw, shortly after he gets interrupted. 43 frames out of 30 fps ≈ 1,43sec(Note that this might be wrong because some special effects were added and I'm not sure if he slowed down the playback, I'm guessing somewhere from 0,9 to 1,43sec): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YdW9BPIBD4#t=13m8s

[Xavas]

Deadly Throw interrupt was actually changed some time during season 3 to land instantly before the the actual damage happens. Prior to this change the projectile speed of Deadly Throw was also greatly increased in the 2.3 patch. All of the contradicting evidence Whatsthis880 and SuddenDeath provided (like Agramon vs Acrono, Acrono XI etc...) has been recorded prior to this change. The problem here, however, is that this was an undocumented change that just happened and pleasantly surprised us rogues one morning. People who actually played rogue during the time period should remember this.

Anyway, here's a video from after the change was deployed on the live servers, this would be pretty hard to pull off without the interrupt being instant:

https://youtu.be/fT_aZfg9AP0?t=4m9s

A better example from the same video (longer distance), if you watch really closely you will see an animation (and interrupt) landing around 10:16 and 10:23 before the damage happens:

https://youtu.be/fT_aZfg9AP0?t=10m8s

http://gyazo.com/02c75341c28f42d718c214798ddffd48

Yet another example from the same movie, the interrupt happens at 13:05 instantly:

https://youtu.be/fT_aZfg9AP0?t=13m1s

http://gyazo.com/4acc265042554381339634932f80d16b

[Klimpb]

@xavas That's interesting, I watched the videos but it's difficult to count the frames since his deadly throw isn't on the action bars or it's too zoomed in, but I attempted anyway by looking at the time it took for his other spells that you could see on his action bars to go off.

It's around 6-9 frames on the videos, looking at them and comparing them to the ones I linked, it does indeed look like something changed at some point, judging by "hit/interrupt" animation appearing before the throw sometimes.

But I'm not entirely convinced since they were all at very short range.

[Xavas]

It's kinda hard to find very long range interrupts since rogue is a melee class, but some of the footage I linked should make it obvious enough (especially the warlock duel). Additionally, if you check the screenshots I linked you'll also see the interrupt's landing animation and the interrupt on the cast bar before you can see the yellow damage going in.

As someone who has played the class at a very high level in retail S3 (top 10 2s as double DPS at some point) I can safely say that the interrupt did become instant some time during S3 and it was kind of a game changer at the time.

Also, here's some more footage :)

https://youtu.be/eJWNMCD8SMU?t=3m44s

http://gyazo.com/52d162c868497308c6f6f2e29ba0ef34

[ceyscro]

Deadly throw should interrupt instantly :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_9PNGHT1SE

18:03 Long range here, you can clearly see the cast get interrupted BEFORE knife hitting and does damages.

here a screenshot : http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/20/1431313214-dt-interrupt.png

It's how deadly throw should works :

• Instant interrupt
• Knife throwing
• Knife hitting, and does damages.

If you don't trust me just watch videos and stop each frames to see. Here's an example from neilyo's video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJWNMCD8SMU

7:20

Explanations in following screens :

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/20/1431313977-neilyo-dt.png http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/20/1431313980-neilyo-dt2.png http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/20/1431313984-neilyo-dt3.png

I can do the same decomposition of frames later in the video at 8:20 when Neilyo write "Instant deadly throw is amazing".

[vove9000]

From official patch 2.4.0 notes: Gladiator’s Leather Gloves: This arena bonus will now properly school lock enemies when the damage from Deadly Throw causes them to stop channeling.

[ceyscro]

This note is about SCHOOL LOCK.

I link you again : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_9PNGHT1SE

18:03 It's just clear : http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/20/1431313214-dt-interrupt.png

And this was recorded at Sunwell so after the release of 2.4.0 patch.

[Xavas]

Yeah, as I said before this was an undocumented change that happened after the 2.4 release.

Also as ceyscro mentioned the "Instant deadly throw is amazing" quote by Neilyo alone should be proof enough. As in, it wasn't instant before / it is instant now.

[vove9000]

To be honest it doesn't matter if it is about school lock, as the description clearly states that channeling is broken on the damage from deadly throw, therefore silence was applied after damage.

I am also 100% sure the silence should be applied after damage, if it works (or worked on retail) otherwise it should be considered a bug as the effects should be apply after hit, not before it.

[Xavas]

It is just how the ability worked, can view it as an exception to your "rule". Having an artificial delay on an interrupt ability frankly made no sense (as it takes timing + makes it harder to juke against) and it obviously was changed accordingly.

[vove9000]

Check it against other silencing abilities. Does hunter's silencing shot silence on hit, or right after shooting? Because in my opinion it shouldn't be a mechanic that for some classes works different way than for the others.

Would be pretty op to be honest if it would be an instant silence, from what I remember you had to time it correctly to silence (the deadly throw, no idea how about the silencing shot).

[Xavas]

Honestly I have no idea how silencing shot works, however unlike deadly throw it is a blanket silence and not an interrupt. The fact of the matter is this is how deadly throw worked later in the expansion and there isn't much to discuss here unless you can find contradicting evidence. Also please re-check ceyscro's post, he provided a much better break down than mine.

And yes, what you remember is only half right because it did work exactly like that until it was changed to instant. Which brings us back to the neilyo quote. :) (Also it is an interrupt, not a silence.)

[vove9000]

If you are casting a spell the silencing shot would interrupt it as well as silence the target. If it is instant imho deadly throw silence should also be instant, if it damages first and then interrupts+silences then the deadly throw should work the same way.

Blizzlike is you first hit and then you apply effects, it doesn't matter how it works now or how it worked in retail (if it was instant then this was bugged), it should be first the damage and then the interrupt. Otherwise what with other spells? Shattering throw for example (I know it's wotlk spell but just an example), it doesn't remove the invulnerability right away, it does it once it hits the target. When you cast shattering throw on bubbled paladin you get first "Immune" since he is immune to damage and after that bubble is removed, not the other way around and this is blizzlike. Same thing should be with deadly throw, silence should be applied once you hit the target.

This is how it should work, if the interrupt will be applied before the damage it will be a bugged skill.

Edit. You can also check it against "Dazed" mechanic. What is applied first, dazed debuff or the damage from projectile? Of course the damage. In my opinion you shouldn't bug the skills on purpose just because they were bugged in retail.

[Xavas]

If it was a bug it wouldn't survive a season and a half. Interrupts take timing and to repeat myself; adding an artificial delay to the equation was not the way to do it and Blizzard at the time obviously did realize it.

Won't be replying to this report anymore as we have already provided the sufficient evidence on how it worked.

[vove9000]

I don't mind it being bugged as I myself plan to play pvp rogue, this just sounds superop.

What with other effects applied by deadly throw? How is the slow applied? Instantly or on hit? What with the hit chance? Do you roll hit success on interrupt, hit or other?

Besides what's more here to add than official patch notes? It says >>on damage<<

[ceyscro]

You know, maybe it's not a behavior that Blizzard wanted, but it's how it worked on retail anyway, you can see it on the videos and every rogues who played on retail know that it worked like that. Interrupt it's instant and all other effects (slow) are applied with damages/hit. So it should work as it worked on retail, with instant interrupt. If you think that CC should not implant things that Blizzard considered as a bug but never fixed, so Vanished should not absorb spells and there should be no Delay (latency) on spells and no possibility to have simultaneous crowd controls.

Besides what's more here to add than official video that shows how it works? We can see the interrupt BEFORE damages.

[vove9000]

So far in some of the videos posted here it interrupts when it deals dmg and in others it interrupts instantly, so to which video you are referring? So far there are more videos where it gets applied with the damage, not instantly.

I would make it interrupt on hit, as that is the blizzlike mechanic with all the spells/skills, and saying it again and again and again won't change anything the same way saying it's okay won't change anything.

I posted you official info from Blizzard stating in patch notes it interrupts on damage, all spells in game work that way, yet you still want to implement it with a bug on purpose.

Since we cannot achieve a consensus maybe flip a coin or do a voting?

[Xavas]

I said I wouldn't post again but here goes; are you even reading what we are writing here?

In some of the videos it is different because as I already said many times it was changed halfway through S3. The interrupt remained instant after that point until the end of TBC. And this was an undocumented change. If it was a bug it wouldn't receive a brand new animation either.

Seriously you are just trolling at this point.

We don't need a coinflip or voting if we are going for the Blizzlike 2.4.3 mechanics. The proof is right there. And yes deadly throw is supposed to be overpowered, that is why it was nerfed to the ground in more than 1 way in the 3.0 patch.

[vove9000]

Do you even read what I am writing here?

You mean to tell me that undocumented change that you say existed (but you have no proof of that) should prevail over proof I provided? And you call me a troll? Maybe start insulting me as well if you ran out of arguments and have no ability to be part of mature discussion?

[Xavas]

The proof is already provided in videos more than once. We can have no discussion when you disregard all the info we provide. Though good job you already buried the good information.

[vove9000]

The info is provided in the tooltip and patch notes, and you disregard it.

[ceyscro]

Vove900, apparently you didn't play on retail so you don't know what you talking about. It's a fact, after 2.3 patch release the interrupt effect was instant. It's why there's some videos where interrupt isn't instant because it was recorded before 2.3, just show me ONE video after 2.3 patch where the interrupt is not instant, you could not because all movies will show an instant interrupt.

You here linked a patch note talking about school lock, your proof isn't a real one. You know why? Because on all videos (2.4.0+ patch) you will see an instant interrupt. The note you linked was just a fix about SCHOOL LOCK, and there's NO ONE other modification brought to deadly throw, so the application of interrupt worked like before HERE IS THE PROOF, there were no modification about the interrupt in 2.4 patch!!

Again because you seem to be very narrow-minded and do not want to watch what I'm linking, here the video AFTER 2.4 release where the instant interrupt is the most apparent :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_9PNGHT1SE

18:03

If you don't want to watch here is the screenshot :

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/20/1431313214-dt-interrupt.png

[vove9000]

Actually I did play on retail but it has nothing to do with the topic here.

You keep on reposting the same info all over again, meanwhile I gave you like 4 proofs already it should interrupt on hit, after damage. This is blizzlike mechanic.

What you keep saying about school lock isn't actually accurate, why did you even stick so much to school lock? In those patch notes it clearly says that it interrupts on damage, not instantly.

As I have said many times already, this is a bug. You cannot change that fact, you also cannot say every bug in history of WoW was legitimate thing. If it gets implemented it will be a bug in the game implemented on own wish, face it already. As I said I totally do not mind that but if you want most blizzlike server you should avoid the bugs instead of introducing them to the final version just because they were present back then.

And I think you didn't play on retail, otherwise you would remember there was a lot of shitstorm on forum regarding that topic, people were wearing lvl 70 pvp gloves in wotlk, that's why they nerfed it. Unfortunately blizz forums from before 2010 got archived and on this one I won't be able to provide you examples.

Nevertheless it is a bug, the correct game mechanics is: effects are applied on hit, not before it and this is what you guys unfortunately don't accept. You keep on saying that the bug should be implemented because it worked like that in retail version.

For thousandth time: I couldn't care less if it gets into the game, I plan to play pvp rogue and for me this is awesome. I'm just trying to tell you that this is a bug.

[ceyscro]

As I said, if you going to not implant things because it was considering as a bug so vanish should not absorb spells and there would be no CCDelay or simultaneous cc and other things that make people nostalgic and still like the game as it was on TBC. So your last post just agree with us, the interrupt was instant on retail. So it's how it should be on corecraft because it's Blizzlike and according to that the server have to be similar as retail was.

[vove9000]

My last post doesn't agree with you, I said the exact same thing earlier in this discussion. This still is a bug.

As to vanish I am not sure what you mean. You mean flying projectiles that hit you once you vanish and remove your stealth? But this was a bug and blizzard confirmed it, same as hunters' pets that kept chasing you even when you entered stealth. This is totally different mechanic, it's more like casting lava burst and then flame shock when the projectile is still flying.

Don't get me wrong, for me personally bugs that were present during tbc are ok since I know them and I know how to exploit them to my advantage. What I am trying to do is to avoid implementing said bugs.

I say it's bugged and let's implement it without bugs, you say let's implement the bugs that were present during tbc to be more blizzlike. In that case this isn't about deadly throw anymore but about every bug present during the tbc. Question appears: do you want to introduce them all into the game? For me that would be f*cking great, professions bugs (fixed in wotlk), item duping, and a lot more. I just hope they won't be banning for exploiting but they shouldn't if the bugs are introduced to the game on purpose.

[ceyscro]

I mean that the ability of vanish to "absorb" any spell (no damages and no destealth) was a complete "bug" and a behavior that Blizzard didn't want, it's why Blizzard fixed vanish with Cataclysm, so if we take your argument corecraft should implant Cataclysm version of vanish? Please...

[vove9000]

For your information there were no changes made to Vanish during Cataclysm content.

What you are talking about is improved vanish effect introduced during vanilla, because that skill was supposed to be a defense mechanic letting rogue use it to defend against incoming spells, and what happened was that even when the spell hasn't been casted yet (but almost) after vanish the spellcasting was finished anyways and the spell hit you removing the stealth which rendered the ability useless. Blizzard didn't have idea how to fix it since there were many factors included, that's why they introduced 3s "immunity" against incoming spells or spells that on their way to hit you.

As for pets targeting rogue even after vanish/stealth it was fixed in TBC content.

Answering your question: yes, I would like the Vanish to work as it worked during the tbc content and the only change to vanish from post tbc patches I could wish for is reduced cd from MoP, but I can live without it.

[Aasamath]

I was doubtful, but it seems the current behavior is indeed correct (instant interrupt), when looking at s4 videos. These screens are from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF4Rx1sQYQU This is just before deadlythrow is activated (gcd is free) The throw was casted here This is just before the interrupt takes effect interrupted So, the rogue casts Deadly throw when his jump animation is about to enter the fall phase, and the interrupts happens before he lands.

The other screens don't show the interrupt since it's vs a rogue, but you can see the hit animation of the throw interrupt, it's the sorta electric discharge that hits the target (happens only with pvp gloves on) The spell was just launched, you can see the knife in the right hand of the rogue. The throwing animation is in progress, knife still in rogue's hand, yet the interrupt animation starts to appear on the enemy rogue. The knife is lauched yet the interrupt is already applied Damage (and slow effect i presume) come a lot later.