Closed cfjanz closed 1 month ago
We could remove the term 'Intent' and replace 'Control' with 'Output,' leaving just 'Input' and 'Output' for the interfaces in Figure 2. This approach works well since it reflects a conceptual architecture rather than an implementation-specific design. This naturally leads into Figure 3, which takes the NDT concept and presents an applied example combined with a Controller, where 'Input' now represents an Intent and 'Output' functions as a control mechanism. Other examples of applied NDT might include planning and sensitivity analyses, where the input and output interfaces may differ again.
Here is the proposed changes, which mistakely has already been incorporated in https://github.com/cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin/commit/5bca6a1c7f6246473976055bcc98fc1b0446997 please speak out if you have different view.
We could remove the term 'Intent' and replace 'Control' with 'Output,' leaving just 'Input' and 'Output' for the interfaces in Figure 2
I checked the main copy and saw that changes were made vs the public version (sorry for missing that as I was out of office for more than 3 weeks).
The input/output interfaces seem to be unidirectional while they shouldn't.
Hi Med,
Based on the feedback from Chris and the ETSI ZSM team, it's been suggested that the conceptual figure should avoid terms that imply how an NDT might be used. The original Figure 2, which includes "Intent" and "Control" as inputs/outputs, might lead readers to believe that a Controller is always required when using NDTs. However, there are scenarios where NDTs might not involve a Controller at all.
Hi, Dan, Med, Cheng, Chris: We need to agree whether input/output interface should be bidirctional? I have seen Med's proposed changes https://github.com/cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin/pull/32/files/d1284648b4dfe202f59bb06e7fd5f4129c480407
Thanks Qin, Med. Bi-directional makes sense to me.
It depends how you define the interfaces. I don’t see why data to the NDT … to give it scenario for modeling … would be bidirectional. I also don’t see why an interface providing results of scenario assessment/modeling by an NDT should be bi-directional. I think Med is still thinking of NDT as full use case implementations, especially a controller that somehow magically synchs bidirectionally between virtual and real.
From: danielkinguk @.> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 9:33 AM To: cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin @.> Cc: Christopher Janz @.>; Author @.> Subject: Re: [cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin] Figure 2 (Issue #31)
Thanks Qin, Med. Bi-directional makes sense to me.
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Hi Med,
Based on the feedback from Chris and the ETSI ZSM team, it's been suggested that the conceptual figure should avoid terms that imply how an NDT might be used. The original Figure 2, which includes "Intent" and "Control" as inputs/outputs, might lead readers to believe that a Controller is always required when using NDTs. However, there are scenarios where NDTs might not involve a Controller at all.
Thanks Daniel for clarifying. I don't see how the need for "Controller" is inferred from the figure but if some do, then better to clarify and avoid confusion. Thanks.
It’s not that readers inferred the need for a controller, it’s that readers inferred that the NDT IS a controller. The box labelled NDT ingests intent and issues control to the network. What do you call something that does that, if not a controller?
Best
From: Med @.> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 9:50 AM To: cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin @.> Cc: Christopher Janz @.>; Author @.> Subject: Re: [cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin] Figure 2 (Issue #31)
Hi Med,
Based on the feedback from Chris and the ETSI ZSM team, it's been suggested that the conceptual figure should avoid terms that imply how an NDT might be used. The original Figure 2, which includes "Intent" and "Control" as inputs/outputs, might lead readers to believe that a Controller is always required when using NDTs. However, there are scenarios where NDTs might not involve a Controller at all.
Thanks Daniel for clarifying. I don't see how the need for "Controller" is inferred from the figure but if some do, then better to clarify and avoid confusion. Thanks.
— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin/issues/31#issuecomment-2340864076, or unsubscribehttps://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZ6FI5CDS3ZTVVY47437D2DZV32HLAVCNFSM6AAAAABN5DGLP2VHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDGNBQHA3DIMBXGY. You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: @.**@.>>
Thanks Qin, Med. Bi-directional makes sense to me.
To me, bidirection can be further break down into one input, one output, therefore I am wondering if we see NDT as blackbox, I am wondering whether we only allow two inputs, two output, it seems the input interface can be break down into a set of sub input interface while the output interface can be breakdown into multiple sub output interfaces, so the relation between input and output can be M:N.
I think we really need to see NDT as simulation platform which can be nature portion of analytics platform, in some implementation cases we can see NDT coordiinate with control to perform policy control on specific network elements, therefore make NDT decoupling from controller, more modular make senses to me.
Exactly. Anything else is conflating NDT with use cases of NDT, and makes understanding clearly what an NDT is, let alone any comprehensible functional architectural representation, somewhere between difficult and impossible.
From: Qin Wu @.> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2024 10:52 AM To: cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin @.> Cc: Christopher Janz @.>; Author @.> Subject: Re: [cheneyzhoucheng/network-digital-twin] Figure 2 (Issue #31)
I think we really need to see NDT as simulation platform which can be nature portion of analytics platform, in some implementation cases we can see NDT coordiinate with control to perform policy control on specific network elements, therefore make NDT decoupling from controller, more modular make senses to me.
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Hi All, here are some points based on your discussion. 1, NDT is a platform/system, which is much more than ‘a controller’. 2, I agree with current changes on Figure 2, which leaves only NDT part. 2, If ‘Input interface’ and ‘outer interface’ still has any confusion on ‘controller’, we can change them to ‘Input’ and ‘Output’. Output can be analysis reports, warning messages, or optimization policies, which not always needs to be delivered to physical network. @danielkinguk @boucadair @billwuqin @dr2lopez @cfjanz
To consistent with 5 elements defined in figure 1, I think we can keep using input/output interface, in addition, we can allow multiple input, multiple output interfaces. I have submitted PR for this change. Please review
I think Sections 7 and 8 are good, much clearer than before. I've given the other Sections a re-read as well, from my perspective at most there are some extremely minor nits in Section 5, which are basically residual harmonizations to the changes made in Section 7. I'll get back with that, but otherwise, I think the issues raised have been resolved and the document is better for it. Thank you for bearing with me.
To consistent with 5 elements defined in figure 1, I think we can keep using input/output interface, in addition, we can allow multiple input, multiple output interfaces. I have submitted PR for this change. Please review
Thanks Qin
All – I would like to raise an issue. As far as I am concerned, there is only one major problem with the latest draft – there is nothing else from my perspective that isn’t adequately characterized as minor wordsmithing as part of a final editorial pass.
That major problem is the continued presence of Figure 2. This figure was the primary source of the issues expressed by those I represented in feedback. It has to go.
Please let me restate the issue. The first problem generated by Figure 2 is that it tells the world that an NDT is a controller. The second, connected, problem is it conflicts with the other NDT use cases. And a third serious problem is that the Figure was incomplete – a lot of functionality needed to make a controller, beyond the highlighted data and modeling functions, was missing from the picture and not even mentioned in the text (e.g. the closed loops – inner and outer, intent translation, etc.)
The point of the feedback is that it is better to consider an intent-driven controller as a use case of an NDT. Seeing it that way resolves all the problems. The data, modeling functions, and the functional management of both, are what are common to every NDT use case - and also the totality of what is now described in section 7. So call that the NDT. In any given use case, you have to combine these functions – the NDT - with a use case-dependent set of other functions. That is what section 8 addresses: and Figure 3 – which was intended to replace Figure 2 - illustrates this for the case of an intent-driven controller.
This gets you out of having to think about a bunch of different, use case-dependent types or flavors of NDTs.
If we can agree on this change I think we can wrap up quickly.