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RFP - apache-netbeans #572

Open FranklinYu opened 5 years ago

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

Checklist

Package Details

Software project URL: https://netbeans.apache.org/ Direct download URL for the software / installer: https://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/incubator/netbeans/incubating-netbeans/incubating-10.0/incubating-netbeans-10.0-bin.zip Software summary / short description: Apache NetBeans

According to this comment we should have separate package for Apache Netbeans until the migration completes.

UPDATE: Note that this is related to #582

pauby commented 5 years ago

@FranklinYu Is that comment still relevant given we are now at version 10?

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

I’m not sure. @wget Any ideas?

pauby commented 5 years ago

@FranklinYu Have you been able to progress this?

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

I did a quick search and conclude that the migration isn’t finished yet. In the status page there is still several “in-progress”. I can’t find any announcement for completion of migration.

@ComFreek may also provide some more related information.

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@FranklinYu I am afraid I don't know any more information than you. Also, the current NetBeans package ("co-maintained" by me) is not maintained anymore. Personally, I would like to pass it to somebody else. I already asked the other comaintainers, but did not receive any response. So it might be a good time to replace it by Apache NetBeans altogether.

The Apache NetBeans homepage mentions HTML and JS support, so maybe the comment below by @wget is outdated.

If you are doing so, users of this package and using Netbeans for HTML5/JS/JavaEE development would be annoyed as Apache Netbeans 9 do not include these modules for now and requires manual adaptation to install them.
(Source)

Probably, it'd be best to ask an Apache NetBeans insider on the safety of replacing the current NetBeans package by Apache NetBeans.

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek Thank you very much for your input! I’ll have to contact NetBeans team directly though.

chtof commented 5 years ago
ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@chtof Great work! Per the comments above, could you please push your package as "apache-netbeans". Unless the comments above are resolved, #582 is not a duplicate. So I'd suggest

pauby commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek

(c) if anyone fixes (not upgrades!) the "netbeans" package, they should add a note to the successor "apache-netbeans" at the top of the description.

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I underatand.

@chtof @comfreek can add you as a maintainer of the package. However please don't push your package until we sort out what is happening here.

What I'd like to know is if, regardless of the outcome with Netbeans are we going to still have an apache-netbeans package? The question here is whether the netbeans package is deprecated in favour of apache-netbeans or continues on it's own for the time being? Am I understanding this correctly?

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@pauby First, I'd suggest reading this Disgus comment. My understanding of it is as follows:

I am not sure if adding me as a (co-)maintainer is a good idea. I wish to discontinue maintaining all NetBeans packages. :smile:

AdmiringWorm commented 5 years ago

/cc @wget

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

After that, make the netbeans transparently forward to the netbeans package. (I don't know what the Chocolatey way of doing so is, but I think you get what I mean.)

@ComFreek When that day comes, the Chocolatey way IMO is to deprecate the NetBeans package in favor of Apache NetBeans.

Is Oracle still releasing NetBeans, BTW? Currently all download link on https://netbeans.org links to Apache NetBeans. (Latest release of Oracle NetBeans available here.) If Oracle isn’t maintaining NetBeans 8.2, then there would be no point maintaining parallel packages.

chtof commented 5 years ago

As I have a doubt everyone agree, tell me if I should push https://github.com/chtof/chocolatey-packages/tree/master/automatic/apache-netbeans .

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@FranklinYu Did you receive a response from NetBeans yet?

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek I haven’t been able to spare a time do to that, sorry. I will report here as soon as I sent them a message, but before that anyone can do it. I think I would ask it in their mailing list when I have time.

wget commented 5 years ago

Hello everyone. Good news.

The netbeans.org website is now redirecting to netbeans.apache.org. All the Java SE+PHP (web) related languages have been integrated into Apache Netbeans, my proposition is to create the package apache-netbeans and make (only) the following packages depend on it:

NOT for

If the other chocolatey maintainers agree, I'm willing to port the aforementioned packages (netbeans-php, netbeans-web, netbeans-jse, netbeans-html5) + apache-netbeans to the core team package repo.

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

I asked in their user list and get information similar to what @wget said above; C/C++ isn’t included in Apache NetBeans 11. One nitpick: from Apache NetBeans 11 release note it seems to support Java EE.

In short, Apache NetBeans (incubating) 11.0 is a full IDE for Java SE, Java EE, PHP and JavaScript development with some Groovy language support.

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@wget minor comment: Isn't having packages with apache- prefix and without a bit confusing? What do you do with the old netbeans package? Mea culpa, I misread your comment.

@wget Are you aware of @chtof already having a package for apache-netbeans push-ready? So no need to recreate one, I hope.

If the other chocolatey maintainers agree, I'm willing to port the aforementioned packages (netbeans-php, netbeans-web, netbeans-jse, netbeans-html5) + apache-netbeans to the core team package repo.

Yes, please, that sounds like a good idea!

pauby commented 5 years ago

There has been a package submitted, by adriens that looks a lot like what is being discussed here.

As I said in the package notes I'm keen not to approve that package until we have a proper way forward for this as it's not a 'simple' package.

Suggestions?

chtof commented 5 years ago

So I can delete my package... https://github.com/chtof/chocolatey-packages/blob/master/automatic/apache-netbeans/tools/chocolateyinstall.ps1

For information:

pauby commented 5 years ago

@chtof Nobody said you had to delete your package. If you have a look at the package submitted you'll see I left a note on there about this issue.

The package you listed above hasn't been submitted yet. Is there a reason?

My reason for posting my comment was to agree a way forward. I think it would be remiss of me, given the discussions around this and the deprecating of numerous packages, that I approved this package without mentioning it here and putting it out for further discussion.

So what I'm looking for, and I'd guess @adriens and the rest of us are looking for is:

chtof commented 5 years ago

You said me in a previous post:

@chtof https://github.com/chtof I'm going to add you as a maintainer of the package (as per your email). However please don't push your package until we sort out what is happening here.

Le jeu. 18 avr. 2019 à 13:44, Paul Broadwith notifications@github.com a écrit :

@chtof https://github.com/chtof Nobody said you had to delete your package. If you have a look at the package submitted https://chocolatey.org/packages/netbeans11/11.0 you'll see I left a note on there about this issue.

The package you listed above hasn't been submitted yet. Is there a reason?

My reason for posting my comment https://github.com/chocolatey/chocolatey-package-requests/issues/572#issuecomment-484399830 was to agree a way forward. I think it would be remiss of me, given the discussions around this and the deprecating of numerous packages, that I approved this package https://chocolatey.org/packages/netbeans11/11.0 without mentioning it here and putting it out for further discussion.

So what I'm looking for, and I'd guess @Akipe https://github.com/Akipe and the rest of us are looking for is:

  • Agreement on a way forward;
  • Agreement on who is going to submit the package;
  • Agreement on what, if any, packages are going to be deprecated and who is going to own that (in terms or coordination with the other maintainers of those packages and doing the actual deprecation if needed);

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/chocolatey/chocolatey-package-requests/issues/572#issuecomment-484469713, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AABQJ27XPOXQXPYOR4TNKFDPRBNJFANCNFSM4HA36R5Q .

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@pauby In the other thread, you wrote the following:

@Akipe has updated and submitted a new version of the package.
(Source)

Of which package? I can't see any new netbeans package. I see a new netbeans11 package, which however was pushed by adriens. Their profile does not link to @Akipe on GitHub, and the GitHub source of netbeans11 links to https://github.com/adriens/chocolatey-netbeans-11.
Now I am confused :smile: Could you please answer the following questions?

@chtof I don't find the duplicated packaging efforts for the same software good, either. Even if I am not responsible for that, I am sorry for that. I think more portable packages are favorable in any case. So maybe we could merge @adrien's package with yours. But let's not do that now, let's first wait for further responses on how we shall continue.

  • Agreement on a way forward;

Opt out.

  • Agreement on who is going to submit the package;

Not me.

  • Agreement on what, if any, packages are going to be deprecated and who is going to own that (in terms or coordination with the other maintainers of those packages and doing the actual deprecation if needed);

If you tell me how exactly, I can deprecate the netbeans package if we decide to drop it in favor of apache-netbeans or netbeans11.

pauby commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek adriens is correct. @Akipe is not. I've obviously been looking at something else and got the two mixed up. I've updated my comments above to replace Akipe with adriens.

pauby commented 5 years ago

@chtof I'm not sure what you are referring to. @adriens submitted a new package.

adriens commented 5 years ago

Thanks @pauby for pointing it

chtof commented 5 years ago

@pauby So, your complete comment sent on 8th april :

" @ComFreek https://github.com/ComFreek

(c) if anyone fixes (not upgrades!) the "netbeans" package, they should add a note to the successor "apache-netbeans" at the top of the description.

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I underatand.

@chtof https://github.com/chtof I'm going to add you as a maintainer of the package (as per your email). However please don't push your package until we sort out what is happening here.

What I'd like to know is if, regardless of the outcome with Netbeans https://github.com/chocolatey/chocolatey-package-requests/issues/572#issuecomment-480520717 are we going to still have an apache-netbeans package? The question here is whether the netbeans package is deprecated in favour of apache-netbeans or continues on it's own for the time being? Am I understanding this correctly?

"

Le jeu. 18 avr. 2019 à 14:39, Paul Broadwith notifications@github.com a écrit :

@chtof https://github.com/chtof I'm not sure what you are referring to. @adriens https://github.com/adriens submitted a new package.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/chocolatey/chocolatey-package-requests/issues/572#issuecomment-484488793, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AABQJ244W2LPRJDO6W5RKBTPRBTXPANCNFSM4HA36R5Q .

pauby commented 5 years ago

@chtof I'm not sure i understand. All you've done is quote a comment I made with nothing added to it.

chtof commented 5 years ago

Just because you have said me in another previous post: "@chtof I'm not sure what you are referring to. " So I have sent the complete related post.

Well, the situation with Netbeans is enough complicated. Just know, I worked on apache-netbeans package https://github.com/chtof/chocolatey-packages/tree/master/automatic/apache-netbeans No problem for me if I have to delete this package, if you want just to get some ideas in my package, give apache-netbeans to someone else, migrate the package in chocolatey-core etc... Just beep me if you need me regarding this issue. I let you to take together the best solution for netbeans/apache-netbeans.

pauby commented 5 years ago

@chtof I think you're misunderstanding my role here. I'm trying to facilitate a decision to be made on this and, as a moderator, help the package move forward. I'm not making any decisions on the course of this package at the moment. It's to to you guys to decide. If there is stalemate then the moderators can get involved.

Once the decision has been made what is happening with this, then we can decide what happens with the package @adriens submitted.

adriens commented 5 years ago

Hi, just to explain why I created netbeans-11 package. I choosed not to make a PR on the existing netbeans package because of the incubatin status of Netbeans 11. It also seems like Netbeans 11 is not a newer version of Netbeans 10 (which also is in incubating status). So by creating this dedicated package, it makes life easier for the end user to install the netbeans versions in a separate way and not break its developement environment.

Still, if Apache releases its Netbeans 11.1, the package will be upgraded.

From what I can see, there really is not evidence that Netbeans 8 should be upgraded (I mean from a choco point of view) to Netbeans 10, and same approach for 10->11.

In fact it's a bit like Netbeans (8), Netbeans-10 and Netbeans-11 is not really the same product. With this cocolatey package approach, choco upgrade all won't break anything, and as an End User, I find this quite confortable.

Hope this helps in the moderation process 🙏

adriens commented 5 years ago

Hey, here are some very fresh news !!! : https://twitter.com/netbeans/status/1118640035883098112 :

2019-04-19 21_20_48-Apache NetBeans sur Twitter _ _Big news -- it is now official, @TheASF @NetBeans

adriens commented 5 years ago

go go go 😸

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

It also seems like Netbeans 11 is not a newer version of Netbeans 10 (which also is in incubating status).

What? I’m new to NetBeans world, but this is confusing.

adriens commented 5 years ago

@FranklinYu : here is what I mean for the scheme version :

2019-04-22 08_02_49-Apache NetBeans Releases

As you can see, all version do have separate paths 😸

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@pauby What is the moderator's stance on maintaining multiple (stable) versions in parallel? I guess, the Nuget package system forces one to actually have three packages, right?

Then again, the IntelliJ IDEA IDE also has big updates very now and then and there is only one package for it. Do note that IntelliJ IDEA updates can even make installed plugins no longer work. Hence, I'd support having only one package for Apache NetBeans if there aren't any other drawbacks I am unaware of.

pauby commented 5 years ago

@comfreek if I understand your question correctly then it really depends.

If you have one package with v9, 10, 11 then that's good for software that people want to always update to the latest version. I'm on v9, I run cup all and I get v11. To stay on s v9 version I have to pin it and then manually update to v9.123 (or whatever).

If you have three packages v9, v10 and v11 then I can easily stay in v9 land by installing it and then a cup all will update to the latest v9 version.

I'm sure you know this but hopefully it explains for those who don't.

So to reiterate again, it really depends on the software and how the versioning of it is managed. Once you determine that then you can build the package(s) around that.

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

I think it boils down to version compatibility. If v10 is supposed to replace v9, then I would prefer one package with several channels.

Do note that IntelliJ IDEA updates can even make installed plugins no longer work.

This is interesting. I did some quick search but found nothing. Any details?

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

@FranklinYu I was told that a plugin I co-authored throws some strange exceptions in a rather recent IntelliJ version. It's still usable, but you users are presented with an exception. I don't have any citable references, though.

then I would prefer one package with several channels.

What are channels? I couldn't find anything in conjunction with "Chocolatey". If a package has a version 9.0.0 and then an upgrade to 10.0.0 is pushed, you can no longer provide updates for v9. Precisely, pushing anything <= 10.0.0 is not possible anymore. Wrong, see comment by pauby below.

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek Sorry I used the wrong term; it should be called “Stream”. It’s not something user can make use of; instead it’s AU specific feature, so user still need to do the pinning and manual update, as mentioned by @pauby above. It just makes maintainer’s life easier.

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

I see, makes sense. So, to drive this discussion forwards, I guess someone would need to investigate whether Apache Netbeans v9, v10, v11 are supposed to live side-by-side or not. Could I kindly ask you, @FranklinYu or @adriens, to do this? You seem to have familiar with Apache NetBeans :smile:

FranklinYu commented 5 years ago

I’m not familiar; I just want to start learning. I’ll see when I have time, but recently I have been occupied by my work…

adriens commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek : to help, I can already tell you that plugins are actually not necessarly compatible as they do not target the same repos. As a developer I do highly rely on plugins, ....so that does also can keep me stick on a version.

At the Office, I'm still on Netbeans 8.2 because of some plugins while at home I'm on Netbeans 11 😺

adriens commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek :

Apache Netbeans v9, v10, v11 are supposed to live side-by-side or not

I'll try to ask ASF directly 🤞

adriens commented 5 years ago

I'm working on it 👍

adriens commented 5 years ago

Here we go guys : https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-2445

adriens commented 5 years ago

Now, let's wait for thei post on this issue 🤞 🙏 ⏸ 🍀

pauby commented 5 years ago

If a package has a version 9.0.0 and then an upgrade to 10.0.0 is pushed, you can no longer provide updates for v9. Precisely, pushing anything <= 10.0.0 is not possible anymore

@comfreek this isn't the case. If v10 (or higher) is approved you can still push v9 package versions (or lower).

ComFreek commented 5 years ago

Oh, but my comment still stands true for pushing minor or patch versions, right? If v10.1.0 is pushed, you can no longer push v10.0.1, or can you? Also wrong! In any case, I corrected my comment above, thanks for the correction & sorry for spreading wrong information.

Then, how about the single package netbeans with pushed versions at v8, v9, v10 and v11? Users are then free to ping their specific major version.

@adriens Thanks for raising an issue there! I am not sure if we can reasonably expect the Apache NetBeans people to read through the whole discussion here, though :smile: (49 comments and counting!) Hence I provided a short summary there as a comment.

AdmiringWorm commented 5 years ago

@ComFreek any version that don't already exist for the package, can be pushed. So you can push a version of 10.0.1 even when version 10.1.0 have been pushed.