keeping plants alive ...

[lizzieinvancouver]

Hi all! I just thought I would start an issue on this so we can make sure we confirm that ...

• [x] greenhouse flaps are open
• [x] greenhouse fan installed
• [x] irrigation installed (!!!)

And generally just a spot to discuss things related to keeping plants alive in other ways and keep track of notes ....

Relatedly, @ngoj1 mentioned 12 April 2024:

To be honest I'm not surprised that the alders are taking so long to root because when the poplar cuttings were already leafing out and rooting deeply the alders had just started producing callus tissue at the cut site. It also hasn't stayed above single digits for any lengthy period of time lately so it's also probably too cold for them to do anything. The papers we looked at before on rooting this species all seem to suggest that temperatures of at least above 15 are most conducive, but it seems like next weekend it'll finally get warm?

[christophe-rd]

Hi @lizzieinvancouver ! Thanks for doing this.

Dan got the fan installed and @wangxm-forest pulled up the sides.

Dan also told me this: "Exhaust fan is installed and functioning. However, it doesn’t look like we’ll be able to add anymore lines inside of the greenhouse at Totem. (Due to the large distance away from a water source, the pressure drops significantly). If too many lines are added, then the system won’t pressurize enough to irrigate. One alternative is to increase the number of drippers per line"

I will call him to see what can be done!

[christophe-rd]

Just talked to Dan. He will install irrigation next week and we should be able to add 3 lines to the irrigation system if we remove unused drippers.

He irrigated the plants in the mean time and they should be good for the weekend.

[DeirdreLoughnan]

@christophe-rd @lizzieinvancouver @wangxm-forest

I have a few follow up questions and it would be good to documents this here as well:

1. How does the irrigation requirements differ from last year so that last years system doesn't work for our needs this year?
2. How many drippers go in each pot?
3. How many unused drippers are there that need to be removed?
4. To confirm, the irrigation is being set up to accomodate all the plants that will be moved into Totem in May? Is there no way to utilize all the drippers and not add new lines?

[christophe-rd]

Hi @DeirdreLoughnan ! You will find my answers below:

I have a few follow up questions and it would be good to documents this here as well:

1. How does the irrigation requirements differ from last year so that last years system doesn't work for our needs this year?

Last year's system should work for our needs. However last year, I believe there were more plants (maybe 100 more or so -- a lot of them died so I can't recall the exact number). However, the tricky part is that they were laid out throughout the entire length of the greenhouse. Since this year there are fewer treatments (6 instead of 9), only about 2/3 of the greenhouse length will be used. Therefore, the last 1/3 of greenhouse will have drippers that won't be use. We then need to remove the drippers and put small corks instead.

Therefore, because of the way I designed the greenhouse arrangement, we will need to add one irrigation line/block = 3 additional rows.

In short, there will be more rows, but with fewer drippers on each.

2. How many drippers go in each pot?

1

3. How many unused drippers are there that need to be removed?

I can't estimate this right now.

4. To confirm, the irrigation is being set up to accommodate all the plants that will be moved into Totem in May?

Exactly

Is there no way to utilize all the drippers and not add new lines?

Ideally not, because last year we had 6 species and this year 9, we need to add another row. I think if we don't install additional lines, 2 undesirable scenarios will happen:

1. Drippers will cross in the paths that we use to walk in the greenhouse = risk of tripping = risk of killing plants and/or damage dendrometers. I will add that we need to be extremely careful when walking near the plants equipped with dendrometers as even just moving a branch shows up in the data.
2. Make rows of 3 different species. This is not ideal either because measuring the row in the middle will be a huge pain + plants equipped with dendrometers will be hard to play around with.

[lizzieinvancouver]

@christophe-rd A couple queries ....

1. Based on your setup, could we not just stopper the end of the lines to make them shorter?
2. Based on your setup, is each species in only ONE row? If so, I think this will add an artifact of species placement in the greenhouse (e.g., certain species closer to sides, while others are further away) which will confound species with 'block' effectively and make it really hard to determine which is a 'species effect' and which is 'location effect.' @FrederikBaumgarten Did you deal with this somehow?

[FrederikBaumgarten]

@christophe-rd A couple queries ....

1. Based on your setup, could we not just stopper the end of the lines to make them shorter?

2. Based on your setup, is each species in only ONE row? If so, I think this will add an artifact of species placement in the greenhouse (e.g., certain species closer to sides, while others are further away) which will confound species with 'block' effectively and make it really hard to determine which is a 'species effect' and which is 'location effect.' @FrederikBaumgarten Did you deal with this somehow?

-> I don't know what Christophe decided. I dealt with this issue by having each treatment in 3 locations well spread over the whole greenhouse. So each treatment and species faced potential effects due to their position in the greenhouse (likely only light differences). From far away I don't see why this can't be done again given that their are less replicates that previous year.

[christophe-rd]

@christophe-rd A couple queries ....

1. Based on your setup, could we not just stopper the end of the lines to make them shorter?

2. Based on your setup, is each species in only ONE row? If so, I think this will add an artifact of species placement in the greenhouse (e.g., certain species closer to sides, while others are further away) which will confound species with 'block' effectively and make it really hard to determine which is a 'species effect' and which is 'location effect.' @FrederikBaumgarten Did you deal with this somehow?

-> I don't know what Christophe decided. I dealt with this issue by having each treatment in 3 locations well spread over the whole greenhouse. So each treatment and species faced potential effects due to their position in the greenhouse (likely only light differences). From far away I don't see why this can't be done again given that their are less replicates that previous year.

Yes, I did organized the plants in the same way you did it last year @FrederikBaumgarten. You can find the greenhouse arrangement here

[wangxm-forest]

@lizzieinvancouver @DeirdreLoughnan @christophe-rd

I took some pictures of an Alru, and most of them look the same as this one. They are very dry but not due to a lack of water, we water them pretty regularly and the pot is never dry. However, I believe maybe not all of them are dead. (Please check the last photo). Since the ones at Totem are also mostly the same, I don't know how many individuals will survive in the end.

I also read some papers, and they suggest using IBA to treat the cuttings first and leaving them in the rooting mixture until they start rooting. They also suggest that relatively high temperatures (25°C) during both day and night, along with constant mist, will be helpful during the rooting process. It would be better to transplant them into deeper soil after rooting to increase their survival. If the Alrus don't survive this year, perhaps we should prepare them like this next year.

[ngoj1]

I strongly suspect it was temperature that really stopped the alders from rooting because they already had been soaking in water with IBA for more than a week in the lab room and were already developing root callus tissue, I bet that moving them back out into the cold stopped or delayed that rooting process. The alders that were used as cutting stock outside the greenhouse also didn't seem to be active growing new lateral shoots even when the other trees' bud burst was already well underway, so maybe it's just that this species is more sensitive to a certain temperature threshold?

Best regards, Justin

On Tue., Apr. 23, 2024, 1:31 p.m. Xiaomao @.***> wrote:

@lizzieinvancouver https://github.com/lizzieinvancouver @DeirdreLoughnan https://github.com/DeirdreLoughnan @christophe-rd https://github.com/christophe-rd 20240423131431.jpg (view on web) https://github.com/christophe-rd/fuelinex/assets/81341625/0ad55b8b-e8d6-4a04-96d0-98a6868784fe 20240423131439.jpg (view on web) https://github.com/christophe-rd/fuelinex/assets/81341625/19913471-622e-4a86-b4f3-8d30e4f756b7 20240423131448.jpg (view on web) https://github.com/christophe-rd/fuelinex/assets/81341625/1aa92563-2309-4464-8dd4-49aabb899c6b

I took some pictures of an Alru, and most of them look the same as this one. They are very dry but not due to a lack of water, we water them pretty regularly and the pot is never dry. However, I believe maybe not all of them are dead. (Please check the last photo). Since the ones at Totem are also mostly the same, I don't know how many individuals will survive in the end.

I also read some papers, and they suggest using IBA to treat the cuttings first and leaving them in the rooting mixture until they start rooting. They also suggest that relatively high temperatures (25°C) during both day and night, along with constant mist, will be helpful during the rooting process. It would be better to transplant them into deeper soil after rooting to increase their survival. If the Alrus don't survive this year, perhaps we should prepare them like this next year.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/christophe-rd/fuelinex/issues/8#issuecomment-2073392873, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU5JG6IGKOVA4Z57DW6QEI3Y63AKLAVCNFSM6AAAAABGMMBTZGVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDANZTGM4TEOBXGM . You are receiving this because you were assigned.Message ID: @.***>

[wangxm-forest]

@ngoj1 I agree. Maybe the temperature at Totem is still not warm enough for them, especially during the night. We could try to leave them in the growth chamber and set the temperature to above 25°C next time.

[ngoj1]

If we want Alru next year we should probably start cuttings of them this summer so that they have a whole growing season to root and develop their own buds so that budburst next spring is not facilitated by artificial warmth. I think exposing them to 25 degrees to coax rooting would probably interfere with the conditions of the experiment since the only temperature manipulation we want is the spring/fall warming/cooling (correct me if I'm wrong about this).

On Tue., Apr. 23, 2024, 4:17 p.m. Xiaomao @.***> wrote:

@ngoj1 https://github.com/ngoj1 I agree. Maybe the temperature at Totem is still not warm enough for them, especially during the night. We could try to leave them in the growth chamber and set the temperature to above 25°C next time.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/christophe-rd/fuelinex/issues/8#issuecomment-2073640815, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AU5JG6PZOJ5LA55DHCAGU6TY63TXZAVCNFSM6AAAAABGMMBTZGVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDANZTGY2DAOBRGU . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

[wangxm-forest]

@ngoj1 Yes, you are correct. I agree with your idea of preparing for the cuttings starting this summer. If I am understanding this correctly, we cut them only because they are fast-growing species and the ones we have from last year are too big already. I also meant to have the cuttings rooted first so we will have the relatively small ones which will be alive for sure at the beginning of next year, and then we could start the experiment and observe for the new buds from next year.

[lizzieinvancouver]

Yes, I did organized the plants in the same way you did it last year @FrederikBaumgarten. You can find the greenhouse arrangement here

Thanks @christophe-rd ! I don't see an immediate issue with the design then (though I can't actually tell where the front and back of the greenhouse are). My main concern then is just the effort (and potentially cost -- are we paying Dan to do this?) to get the irrigation re-set up. So as long as you have thought through getting the irrigation sorted I think it works.

[christophe-rd]

Hi @lizzieinvancouver! Sorry I won't be able to answer everything -- I have very limited internet access.

Dan finished installing the irrigation yesterday. He set it like last year : 15 minutes 4x/day. Is that ok?

Also, I asked him how it works for his help on our projects. That's what he told me:

"So my department bills each lab separately. (Thanks, but don't worry about it, I also like helping Lizzy's lab more than a lot of the others)"

[christophe-rd]

@ngoj1 @wangxm-forest Thanks for your comments on this! As I will be at the lab next week, how about we have a chat on this @ngoj1 ? Will your semester be over?

[DeirdreLoughnan]

@christophe-rd @lizzieinvancouver @wangxm-forest Thanks for coordinating with Dan to get things set up. Mao and I put picks in all the plants we could. If possible, I would move one of the irrigation lines over, so there are adequate lines for each block. For now, Mao and I wiggled things around to make it work. But I think it is better than not having pots get watered. But @christophe-rd you will need to tweak the design a bit when you arrive. My take initial impression is you could space the blocks out a bit more and make the existing irrigation system work.

@christophe-rd The water is on so the plants will be watered over the weekend, right?

[DeirdreLoughnan]

@lizzieinvancouver @wangxm-forest @christophe-rd Some of the species, particularly the Bepa, have outgrown the pots. In the greenhouse they have gotten so tall they keep falling over. While we also noticed in the growth chamber, some of the Bepa have roots coming out of the bottom of the pots.

I think they should be repotted soon if we are to avoid pot effects. Is there a plan to replicate the double-tall pots method that @FrederikBaumgarten used? If this experiment is going to last a few years, I think several of the species should be transferred to bigger pots.

[ngoj1]

@christophe-rd I will be leaving on May 2nd to the UK so if you are available any time before that let me know and we can arrange something!

If we are thinking of repotting the plants, would there be any way to obtain some mineral soil we can incorporate into our potting mix? If the plants ever get pot-bound again and the peat ends up getting packed and turns hydrophobic when it dries, having some mineral whether its clay, silt, or sand in there will help rehydrate them without needing to soak the whole thing in a bucket of water. It will also make unpotting way easier since the mineral soils will loosen up/separate from roots much faster (at least that has been my experience in gardening).

[DeirdreLoughnan]

@christophe-rd @ngoj1 @lizzieinvancouver @wangxm-forest Thanks everyone for working on this and doing research! I think it is great that we are brainstorming and documenting our ideas. But my advice would be to put a pin in this until later in the summer.

We have a lot of other time sensitive tasks, like getting shoot elongation measurements going and perhaps repotting some of the species that are doing well, that we should prioritize this week and next.

[christophe-rd]

Hi @DeirdreLoughnan. Thanks for all of this!

@christophe-rd @lizzieinvancouver @wangxm-forest Thanks for coordinating with Dan to get things set up. Mao and I put picks in all the plants we could. If possible, I would move one of the irrigation lines over, so there are adequate lines for each block. For now, Mao and I wiggled things around to make it work. But I think it is better than not having pots get watered.

I agree

But @christophe-rd you will need to tweak the design a bit when you arrive. My take initial impression is you could space the blocks out a bit more and make the existing irrigation system work.

Ok, good. I will work on this when I arrive.

@christophe-rd The water is on so the plants will be watered over the weekend, right?

Yes, I believe it would. I will check with Dan.

[christophe-rd]

@lizzieinvancouver @wangxm-forest @christophe-rd Some of the species, particularly the Bepa, have outgrown the pots. In the greenhouse they have gotten so tall they keep falling over. While we also noticed in the growth chamber, some of the Bepa have roots coming out of the bottom of the pots.

I should have told you before. Yes, Fredi and I decided to postpone the repotting after the first treatment as I did not have the time in February when I came.

I think they should be repotted soon if we are to avoid pot effects. Is there a plan to replicate the double-tall pots method that @FrederikBaumgarten used? If this experiment is going to last a few years, I think several of the species should be transferred to bigger pots.

I would avoid repotting in 4-gal pots as much as possible. Now the plants are in 1-gal pots. Making them double = 4-gal pots (2 2-gal pots). However, these are the disadvantages that 4-gal pots bring to the table:

1. Long to make (lots have been saved from last year, but we will need to make perhaps hundreds again this year)
2. Very heavy -- so they are very hard to move around
3. They take a lot of place in the growth chambers (especially since I doubt we'll have enough space in the chambers for the fall treatments)

Anyway, @DeirdreLoughnan, I think we should discuss this on our meeting next Thursday.

[christophe-rd]

@christophe-rd I will be leaving on May 2nd to the UK so if you are available any time before that let me know and we can arrange something!

I'll be in the lab in the morning of May 2nd, so if you're around, then let's do this. Otherwise, we could schedule a Zoom.

If we are thinking of repotting the plants, would there be any way to obtain some mineral soil we can incorporate into our potting mix? If the plants ever get pot-bound again and the peat ends up getting packed and turns hydrophobic when it dries, having some mineral whether its clay, silt, or sand in there will help rehydrate them without needing to soak the whole thing in a bucket of water. It will also make unpotting way easier since the mineral soils will loosen up/separate from roots much faster (at least that has been my experience in gardening).

Sounds good! Thanks for the advice.

[christophe-rd]

@christophe-rd @ngoj1 @lizzieinvancouver @wangxm-forest Thanks everyone for working on this and doing research! I think it is great that we are brainstorming and documenting our ideas. But my advice would be to put a pin in this until later in the summer.

We have a lot of other time sensitive tasks, like getting shoot elongation measurements going and perhaps repotting some of the species that are doing well, that we should prioritize this week and next.

I agree

[lizzieinvancouver]

I agree

I agree also. Thanks to everyone for thinking on this.

I am happy to help discuss later when we pick this up (and someone will need to remind me of the thread then).