USA

[charlesvestal]

Please release the iOS and Android apps in the US store.

---

Internal Tracking ID: EXPOSUREAPP-2041

[Ein-Tim]

@domoritz The App stays installed, for updates AFAIK you are always asked to enter the Password of the AppleID you downloaded the App with.

[elsesiy]

I have to completely agree with @DaveyM84 on this. The majority of folks won't bother to set up a new apple ID or switch countries back and forth even though they would want to participate. Let's say you have someone who lives in the US and visits Germany on business travel. Can you really expect a potentially non-tech-savvy person to go through this process? I doubt it. It's not about whether it's hard for you or me, it's about it being unfeasible for the vast majority of travelers. Furthermore, there's no reason to put the burden on the user in the first place as it's trivial to add any country without specifically tailoring the solution towards the market as suggested in this thread. The conversation should be really decoupled from what it would take to USE the CWA in the US which is not really the question here.

[melancholyaeon]

Hi Jonas!

I've said it before, but you seem new to the convo, so I hope others don't mind if I repeat this: what you request is most likely illegal. And has been since July 2020, when the EU's top court struck down the EU-US data sharing agreement.

The technicalities of this agreement appear to result in the conclusion that the German app likely cannot download any EU person's data, even if anonymized, to your US phone for processing lest it somehow end up on a US server somehow. The smartphone data flows are just insane when you look at everything that goes on with your average device.

I won't pretend to be an expert in the extreme complexities of this subject, because it takes like 3 PhDs to understand! :D But I get that a risk-averse German government agency isn't going to go there.

Also, the German health agency has already set a long list of demanding new priorities for the app, such as greater interconnectivity with other EU apps, contact journaling, symptom logging. . .just a ton of stuff.

Finally, since ordinary users generally do not struggle to sign up for any numbers of services or email newsletters etc on a near-daily basis, I don't think any one in the project management of the app is going to be convinced that taking 10 minutes to likewise sign up for a second account is a hardship in any way.

I do wish the moderators would just close this, since there's nothing to be done about it until the law changes. :D

Best wishes!

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:48 AM Jonas-Taha El Sesiy < notifications@github.com> wrote:

I have to completely agree with @DaveyM84 https://github.com/DaveyM84 on this. The majority of folks won't bother to set up a new apple ID or switch countries back and forth even though they would want to participate. Let's say you have someone who lives in the US and visits Germany on business travel. Can you really expect a potentially non-tech-savvy person to go through this process? I doubt it. It's not about whether it's hard for you or me, it's about it being unfeasible for the vast majority of travelers. Furthermore, there's no reason to put the burden on the user in the first place as it's trivial to add any country without specifically tailoring the solution towards the market as suggested in this thread. The conversation should be really decoupled from what it would take to USE the CWA in the US which is not really the question here.

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[Ein-Tim]

@dsarkar Could you maybe update us about this? Would it legally be possible to make the App available via the US-App Store? I trust @melancholyaeon, but I think a official statement regarding this would be good 👍 Thank you 👍

[dsarkar]

Dear @Ein-Tim, @charlesvestal, @melancholyaeon, Thanks for your contributions. We will rise this question and come back to you ASAP. Best wishes, DS

---

Corona-Warn-App Open Source Team

[ingorichter]

I understand that there are legal challenges, but I have a hard time understanding why we try to fight a pandemic. Then we stop halfway, leaving people out of the equation when they want to participate and protect themselves or their families. I live in the US, and I spent a fair amount of my time in Germany with my wife and children. I always wanted to install the app to enable proper tracking and reporting to keep everybody informed and healthy.

[DaveyM84]

Dear @Ein-Tim, @charlesvestal, @melancholyaeon, Thanks for your contributions. We will rise this question and come back to you ASAP. Best wishes, DS

Corona-Warn-App Open Source Team

Dear @dsarkar ,

it's been a while now - were you able to raise the legal question and get an answer? Could you please give us an update on that?

Kind regards

[DaveyM84]

Hello, could we please get an update on the legal question that was mentioned last? The question was going to be raised beginning of December, and it's February now but there has been no update on the raising of that question at all...? @dsarkar?

[dsarkar]

@DaveyM84 Thanks, we will try to get more info on why this seems not a trivial task to bring the App into the USA store.

[melancholyaeon]

Hi dsarkar!

Appreciate your hard work under pressure on the app.

Frankly I'd prefer you guys use your limited legal resources to resist the demands of certain politicians to make the app centralized & with real name data.

That's much more important now, IMVHO.

Thanks for listening!

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 10:42 dsarkar notifications@github.com wrote:

@DaveyM84 https://github.com/DaveyM84 Thanks, we will try to get more info on why this seems not a trivial task to bring the App into the USA store.

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[DaveyM84]

@DaveyM84 Thanks, we will try to get more info on why this seems not a trivial task to bring the App into the USA store.

@dsarkar Thank you. Looking forward to your update

[dsarkar]

Hi @DaveyM84,

I am afraid the status regarding App Stores outside of Germany, e.g. the USA is unchanged. See https://www.coronawarn.app/en/faq/#international:

In which international app stores is the app available? After a detailed examination of the situation it was determined that for legal reasons any publication of the Corona-Warn-App in App Stores outside of Germany is currently only possible after a case-by-case assessment. Legal consultations have shown that in the case of publication in international App Stores, the law of the respective country must be considered and applied to the Corona-Warn-App. This applies in particular to data protection, any necessary claims for information by local authorities and other contractual and consumer protection regulations.

The Robert Koch Institute as publisher of the app will trigger this check for the respective countries and release the app after successful legal examination. The RKI currently released the app for the following European countries:

[DaveyM84]

Hi @DaveyM84,

I am afraid the status regarding App Stores outside of Germany, e.g. the USA is unchanged. See https://www.coronawarn.app/en/faq/#international:

In which international app stores is the app available? After a detailed examination of the situation it was determined that for legal reasons any publication of the Corona-Warn-App in App Stores outside of Germany is currently only possible after a case-by-case assessment. Legal consultations have shown that in the case of publication in international App Stores, the law of the respective country must be considered and applied to the Corona-Warn-App. This applies in particular to data protection, any necessary claims for information by local authorities and other contractual and consumer protection regulations. The Robert Koch Institute as publisher of the app will trigger this check for the respective countries and release the app after successful legal examination. The RKI currently released the app for the following European countries:

Hi @dsarkar that's unfortunate, but thank you for the update!

[Ein-Tim]

A question a Twitter user asked is why (according to her) these apps are available on the US Store:

• Switzerlands "SwissCovid" (not a EU member)
• Irelands app (EU member)
• Italys "Immuni" (EU member)
• Englands "NHS Covid-19" (not a EU member)
• Protect Scotland (not a EU member)
• French "TousAntiCovid" (EU member)
• Belgiums "Coronalert" (EU member)
• Netherlands "CoronaMelder" (EU member)
• Austrias "Stopp Corona" (EU member)
• Denmarks "Smitte|Stop" (EU member)
• Polands "Protego" (EU member)
• Czechias "eRouška" (EU member)

Seems like we Germans are the only ones that see a problem with publishing the app to the US store? Why?

[amandadebler]

I'm the Twitter user @Ein-Tim mentioned; I currently have SwissCovid installed on my phone and if I get a positive test result here in Germany, will call the Swiss hotline to report it if the app doesn't accept the code I get directly. Previously, I had the Irish app, but switched to the Swiss one as it appears to be more fully integrated with Germany's system.

As a US citizen who is a permanent resident of Germany, I am happy to make any request for information or permission you like of the US State Department or my congressional representatives (mine happens to represent the region with Fort Hood, and is keenly interested in anything to do with US Army families). I am quite certain that the current administration will not have objections to enhanced but completely voluntary protection of US citizens visiting or living in Germany.

[GisoSchroederSAP]

There is still no final decision by the principals to place the app in the US store as well, as it is also possible for Americans to use the CWA with a second account in the app store or by changing the region in the existing account. Currently, some questions are unresolved:

1. Legal status and implications of placing the CWA into the US App Store/Play Store.
2. How can the CWA be supported in an acceptable way for US citizens living in Europe?
3. Intended lifetime of the app and maintenance/delivery in the US app stores.

[dsarkar]

@Ein-Tim @amandadebler Thanks for contributing here. We have updated the internal ticket! Best, DS

---

Corona-Warn-App Open Source Team

[charlesvestal]

Thanks so much for detailing the existing issues. I know we're approaching a year into this app still being unavailable in the US app store, so as the originator of this ticket, would like to respond to these points.

1. Legal status and implications of placing the CWA into the US App Store/Play Store.

I understand this may be a concern and is outside my realm of expertise, but it seems to have been resolved by the listed countries above, or at a minimum they have erred on the side of taking a legal risk to save lives. I would encourage the appropriate body to think about what decisions they can make to minimize harm in this scenario. Surely the data protections of a european-governed database are more stringent than the notoriously loose laws in the united states?

2. How can the CWA be supported in an acceptable way for US citizens living in Europe?

The decision to not publish in the US store means there is NO support for US citizens living in Europe. This is surely on the lower end of unacceptable within that spectrum. An application published in the US store, even without the excellent english localization, with no support or contact information is a better situation than is offered to those with non-german app store accounts today.

3. Intended lifetime of the app and maintenance/delivery in the US app stores.

The intended lifetime of this app in the US store should be no different than that of the EU stores. Can you explain how this is a more relevant concern for international publishing than domestic?

To be incredibly clear: I am so thankful for the work on this application and the service you provide to those who use it. I'm using a german app store account to access the app and have counseled countless others on how to do so as well. I only hope that there may be a resolution so that we can get as many people using this as possible. We're hopefully through the worst of things now, but there will be a need for contact tracing (and as I understand it vaccine pass verification) in the coming months and years that this app could continue to support for those without access to German / EU app store account, or the technical ability or wherewithall to set one up.

Thank you, Charles

[amandadebler]

To reiterate a point I've made before both here and on Twitter, asking monolingual, non-technical US citizens visiting Germany or here with the US military to create a second account to switch to the German app store to install and maintain the CWA is unrealistic. It's hard enough to explain to my non-technical, older German relatives why they should install this app when I have to deal with their inability to distinguish between their device lock codes and Apple/Google account passwords every time there's a major update to their phones and they have to sign in again; a further abstraction would only make it worse.

I intentionally refuse to set up that second account for myself or take any other non-obvious action to access the German app store, in order to continue being able to advocate for these populations.

[DaveyM84]

There is still no final decision by the principals to place the app in the US store as well, as it is also possible for Americans to use the CWA with a second account in the app store or by changing the region in the existing account. Currently, some questions are unresolved:

1. Legal status and implications of placing the CWA into the US App Store/Play Store.
2. How can the CWA be supported in an acceptable way for US citizens living in Europe?
3. Intended lifetime of the app and maintenance/delivery in the US app stores.

To reiterate a point I've made before both here and on Twitter, asking monolingual, non-technical US citizens visiting Germany or here with the US military to create a second account to switch to the German app store to install and maintain the CWA is unrealistic. It's hard enough to explain to my non-technical, older German relatives why they should install this app when I have to deal with their inability to distinguish between their device lock codes and Apple/Google account passwords every time there's a major update to their phones and they have to sign in again; a further abstraction would only make it worse.

I intentionally refuse to set up that second account for myself or take any other non-obvious action to access the German app store, in order to continue being able to advocate for these populations.

100% agree! Absolutely on-point.

[melancholyaeon]

Hi All:

I hear the frustration. I get you.

It's very simple. The German court ruled in July 2020 that no German data could be sent to US servers. That's the core issue.

You've got data about German people's phones that you've come into contact with on your US phone. If you carry that phone back to the US within the 2-week window or sync with iCloud, you've possibly carried German citizen data to US servers.

This breaks the law, so obviously the Germans have to be wary about the data-sharing & the legal ramifications.

Look it takes 2 PhDs to understand these complex rules & the data flows from smartphones are INSANE & non-transparent. I can't be that expert. :)

We can complain all we want but unless you are ready & able to challenge the German data ruling at the EU level, it's not going to happen. Period.

Then, there's the cost of supporting a US app. Certain politicians have been all over the press on how the app is said to have busted its budget already.

It doesn't matter what the Swiss etc do. Please let me offer some plain-American talk here: we Americans & Brits here have got to man up & take the 10 mins. to make a second account. ;)

Look I'm a US citizen who's been here for 5 years & will become a permanent resident soon. All of us long-timers have second German accounts & it's really not a big deal.

It really is the best work around for now. :)

Best wishes! Have a great summer.

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:19 Charles Vestal @.***> wrote:

Thanks so much for detailing the existing issues. I know we're approaching a year into this app still being unavailable in the US app store, so as the originator of this ticket, would like to respond to these points.

1. Legal status and implications of placing the CWA into the US App Store/Play Store.

I understand this may be a concern and is outside my realm of expertise, but it seems to have been resolved by the listed countries above, or at a minimum they have erred on the side of taking a legal risk to save lives. I would encourage the appropriate body to think about what decisions they can make to minimize harm in this scenario. Surely the data protections of a european-governed database are more stringent than the notoriously loose laws in the united states?

1. How can the CWA be supported in an acceptable way for US citizens living in Europe?

The decision to not publish in the US store means there is NO support for US citizens living in Europe. This is surely on the lower end of unacceptable within that spectrum. An application published in the US store, even without the excellent english localization, with no support or contact information is a better situation than is offered to those with non-german app store accounts today.

1. Intended lifetime of the app and maintenance/delivery in the US app stores.

The intended lifetime of this app in the US store should be no different than that of the EU stores. Can you explain how this is a more relevant concern for international publishing than domestic?

To be incredibly clear: I am so thankful for the work on this application and the service you provide to those who use it. I'm using a german app store account to access the app and have counseled countless others on how to do so as well. I only hope that there may be a resolution so that we can get as many people using this as possible. We're hopefully through the worst of things now, but there will be a need for contact tracing (and as I understand it vaccine pass verification) in the coming months and years that this app could continue to support for those without access to German / EU app store account, or the technical ability or wherewithall to set one up.

Thank you, Charles

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[DaveyM84]

There is still no final decision by the principals to place the app in the US store as well, as it is also possible for Americans to use the CWA with a second account in the app store or by changing the region in the existing account. Currently, some questions are unresolved:

1. Legal status and implications of placing the CWA into the US App Store/Play Store.
2. How can the CWA be supported in an acceptable way for US citizens living in Europe?
3. Intended lifetime of the app and maintenance/delivery in the US app stores.

Hi Giso,

that it's technically possible for Americans to switch region in order to get CWA shouldn't be a reason in itself not to add CWA to US app store, since obviously Americans could have done the same thing with the country apps mentioned above, yet those countries still added their apps to the US store. Doesn't seem like that was an accident or coincidence.

Apart from that, switching regions just to get this one app is very awkward and impractical on the individual user and it means they have to switch back and forth between regions, as not all apps the user has installed will get managed or updated by the other region (i.e. they may not receive updates). The other way is to set up another app store profile (i.e. using a different email) but this equally awkward and impractical for the same reasons, as user needs to log in and out and different app store accounts/profiles. And I'm not even sure that this is entirely legit because Apple seems to discourage people from switching regions: depending on region you sometimes have to enter a new local payment method (e.g. the person may not have a credit card from the other region) and may not have a fixed/valid address or telephone number, and in certain circumstances may even have no choice but to enter a fake address or tel no. You guys call it a simple workaround, but it's not: This is just not ok, the individual user should not be expected to jump through these types of hoops and use these type of tricks just to access this one app.

Finally, regards the open questions you mention, obviously the other countries mentioned clearly went ahead and placed their apps in the US store (as well as in the store of other regions) - I don't think they just ignored the same questions but obviously saw that whatever possible risk (highly doubtful anyway) was negligible and that the benefit of publishing the apps in foreign app store was far greater. And it's been the best part of a year (or more?) for most of these apps, yet they don't seem to have had any repercussions from going ahead. Surely this speaks for itself???

And let's not forget that the CWA has already been added to various other country app stores, well after the Germany launch the fact that alone that it was done shows that just because users could switch countries in those cases was no argument for not making the app not available in those places.

I'm really sorry for speaking so openly but as it stands this seems like yet another case of Germany dragging it's feet, first of all not taking an important issue into appropriate consideration in the planning stages, (I don't think it was ignored, just not enough time given or was glanced over) and then once enough people started asking for it, throwing out a bunch of excuses and arbitrary reasons why it can't be done or is not worth doing, despite the overwhelming amount examples and arguments showing that it is just needed. Otherwise why would this thread exist in the first place?!

[charlesvestal]

I'm fairly sure most people on this thread can make a second account, but there are countless others that don't have the knowledge that it's even possible, search for the app and give up. And unfortunately the virus does not care about our politics or data privacy laws. Hopefully that ruling can be reinterpreted when using anonymized exposure notifications that contain, by design, no personally identifiable information (a randomized, cycled identifier). Regardless, that transfer of said data to US networks is allowed with explicit consent from the user.

As an aside, we've got folks from all genders here, "man up" isn't the language we should be encouraging. It's not about our personal ability, it's about equitable access and getting the most people onto this platform as possible.

[Ein-Tim]

@melancholyaeon

Thanks for your great explanation! Could you explain why we in Germany are the only once having this problem? Is it a problem with our German law and not with EU law?

[melancholyaeon]

Hi again everyone:

I sincerely appreciate the solidarity. I sincerely do. It's all good! :)

And yet it it in no way addresses the problem, which is a legal question that can't be solved by posting here. :)

If the complaint is that expats can't or won't learn 5 words of German to deal with the German app store - this is not going to impress the Germans, I'm afraid. ;)

It really is only three taps or so to install. It's really easy! :)

Since nearly 30 million people have installed the app now, we can see downloading & installing is not a difficult matter for a broad spectrum of the populace.

All the Omas in my nabe seem to manage downloading their Payback Karte app & coupons without any issue, so I'm feeling that Germans of all ages can manage this with at most minor aid.

Finally, we need to look here: the app already has a heavy to-do list of future features from the government that are really necessary, such as improved location check-in & contact info management, better test result handling, & either storing or interfacing with the digital proof of vaccination coming from the EU in just a few weeks.

When that's done & the legal question is clarified, then let's get back to this.

Have a wonderful day, all!

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:38 Amanda Debler @.***> wrote:

To reiterate a point I've made before both here and on Twitter, asking monolingual, non-technical US citizens visiting Germany or here with the US military to create a second account to switch to the German app store to install and maintain the CWA is unrealistic. It's hard enough to explain to my non-technical, older German relatives why they should install this app when I have to deal with their inability to distinguish between their device lock codes and Apple/Google account passwords every time there's a major update to their phones and they have to sign in again?

I intentionally refuse to set up that second account or take any other non-obvious action to access the German app store, in order to continue being able to advocate for these populations.

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[DaveyM84]

If the complaint is that expats can't or won't learn 5 words of German to deal with the German app store - this is not going to impress the Germans, I'm afraid. ;)

"If the complaint is that expats can't or won't learn 5 words of German to deal with the German app store - this is not going to impress the Germans, I'm afraid"

Literally nobody said this was the "complaint". The issue, which has already been clearly outlined multiple times above, is that casual users, which is most people, should not have to switch back and forth between app store regions and account to download AND maintain just one specific app.

[amandadebler]

My final comment for today: any solution that requires the user to do more than type "corona app germany" into the app store search bar, touch the "install" button, and then open the installed app once to scroll through (and ignore) an agreement is worthless for anyone who doesn't know what GitHub is or have a household member who does. The only non-enthusiasts willing to do more for the sake of preventing Covid spread are probably not getting on planes to come to Germany this year, anyway.

[melancholyaeon]

@tim & All

Look, you all there on staff need to have a loooong chat with RKI, Telekom & SAP legal teams.

Please don't rely on a mere student's understanding of how the German courts & states have interpreted the Schrems II case.

To answer you question, that's an EU ruling.

The 2020 Schrems II ruling halted the data sharing agreement with the US. Then came the questions of how to interpret that ruling in light of German law & state administration.

You know we feel about this privacy issue in Germany. :) You know better than I on the German desire for detailed regulations. :)

Some states, like BaWu, published guidance ( https://www.huntonprivacyblog.com/2020/09/02/german-dpa-issues-guidance-on-data-transfers-following-schrems-ii/), which set such strict rules as to still render it nearly impossible.

Among other things, you have to certify the data is encrypted in a manner that US intelligence can't crack! Neither you on your side at Corona-Warn nor Apple can make that guarantee for certain.

As I understand it - and lots of stuff may have happened recently that I won't pretend to be expert or up-to-date on - all these questions & rules are into the court process here in Germany & the German courts have upheld the strict rules.

I'm not kidding when I say this is well beyond my expertise. Talk to your Legal team, please.

But even if your Legal team would decide it's kewl, I don't know that Apple would take the legal risk of accepting the German app either.

A second personal account is an easy solution. It's perfectly do-able. The vast majority of us English-speakers have done it, in my understanding.

Once again I urge you to close this thread until you have clarity from Legal on the current status of the regulations & data rules after the German interpretations & court processes around Schrems II.

Obviously I can't answer to the rules & laws of other EU or third party countries! I can barely manage the German plusquamperfect! :)

Enjoy your afternoon.

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 13:54 Tim @.***> wrote:

@melancholyaeon https://github.com/melancholyaeon

Thanks for your great explanation! Could you explain why we in Germany are the only once having this problem? Is it a problem with our German law and not with EU law?

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[GisoSchroederSAP]

All,

I am totally aware of all the above mentioned pain points/disadvantages/concerns/doubts for not being available with the German Corona Warn App in the US app stores. Believe me, we prudently examined all of your comments, questions, proposals, considerations. And yes, we already had more than 5 iterations of discussions regarding this topic - not only here on GitHub, but also with all parties involved: BMG, RKI, SAP, and all the others including the lawyers, lobbyists, diplomats and our representatives over there in US.

What shall I say? Now, almost a year later, there is still no agreement to go this way and bring the CWA into the US store.

Do I like the current status? Personally - no. Do I like the fact, it is still -after almost a year- an ongoing topic without significant move forward? Personally - no. Do I expect changes in the near future? Personally - no.

If, suddenly and unexpectedly for all, this decision changes, we definitely will communicate this.

Until then, I kindly ask you to reflect and decide for yourself: If you think, it is important/beneficial to use the Corona Warn App while you are located in Germany for the sake of preventing Covid spread, then there are ways to receive this app and it is worth to go that extra step. For now, unfortunately, we are unable to offer the shortcut of placing the app in the US app stores.

[charlesvestal]

@GisoSchroederSAP thank you very much for the human perspective and an update on the valiant efforts so far. I really appreciate all the work you’re doing.

[TheTravelGeek]

It’s been a year since I last traveled to Germany (dual national). I am getting ready for my next trip. Last year I was surprised to find that I couldn’t install the German app on my US devices, but it was early in the pandemic and as a software engineer working for a large (read: bureaucratic) IT company it didn’t surprise me.

Now we are in 2021. We (humanity, or actually our vaccine researchers) have performed a miracle and developed several highly effective vaccines against SARS-Cov-2 and then actually vaccinated many millions of people with those vaccines.

And I still can’t install the app on my phone or tablet. (and yes, I could create a second account etc. but I am writing this from the point of view of a normal non-technical user who doesn’t have the inclination of researching workarounds to the “not available in your country” message).

As a German and as a software engineer I am embarrassed and disappointed.

(not meant as criticism of GisoSchroederSAP or other individuals here)

[melancholyaeon]

@TheTravelGeek

Nice to meet you. We hear your disappointment. We all agree it's a shame.

And yet as thoroughly discussed above, it's not legally possible

Unless you sue each German state to repeal or modify their strict non-sharing regulations around the Schrems II data case, which the German courts have accepted.

And/Or Sue the EU to invalidate Schrems II.

And then Find the money & staff to maintain it.

We're told by our friends here that they've talked to lawyers, diplomats etc to no avail.

It's not something anyone here or at RKI etc can be blamed for, shamed for, or disrespected over. So no worries!

You would apparently need the US Congress to pass a new data law & issue its own new regulations.

Luckily the work-around is simple. "Non-technical users" manage to create Apple, Gmail, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, WhatsApp, Zoom & Payback Karte accounts every day.

It's not ideal. But it's easy & it's many users in Germany, esp. expats, do it all the time.

Best wishes! Have a great summer.

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 20:09 TheTravelGeek @.***> wrote:

It’s been a year since I last traveled to Germany (dual national). I am getting ready for my next trip. Last year I was surprised to find that I couldn’t install the German app on my US devices, but it was early in the pandemic and as a software engineer working for a large (read: bureaucratic) IT company it didn’t surprise me.

Now we are in 2021. We (humanity, or actually our vaccine researchers) have performed a miracle and developed several highly effective vaccines against SARS-Cov-2 and then actually vaccinated many millions of people with those vaccines.

And I still can’t install the app on my phone or tablet. (and yes, I could create a second account etc. but I am writing this from the point of view of a normal non-technical user who doesn’t have the inclination of researching workarounds to the “not available in your country” message).

As a German and as a software engineer I am embarrassed and disappointed.

(not meant as criticism of GisoSchroederSAP or other individuals here)

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[TheTravelGeek]

Creating a FB account isn’t exactly the same as understanding the “not available in your country” message and then finding a workaround (none offered on the official website, of course). Sure, some will look for and find workarounds, but I would bet many will simply not bother with it. And telling people to use a workaround presumably means telling people to break the law.

I personally just installed a fork of the app from the F-Droid store.

Looks like the digital Impfpass app (CovPass) is out… and not available on my US devices.

https://digitaler-impfnachweis-app.de/

[melancholyaeon]

@TheTravelGeek

I'm sorry the difficult state of international privacy law upsets you. We're all annoyed by it.

It is what it is.

If you have valid legal evidence that the RKI's workaround is illegal, please offer it. I'd love to read the court case & related regulations in force. If you can put forward a legal analysis by a professional lawyer too, I'd be very grateful.

As for CovidPass, that's a different app, so I don't think anyone here in this thread can help you with that. Sorry again.

Have a great evening. Best wishes!

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 19:15 TheTravelGeek @.***> wrote:

Creating a FB account isn’t exactly the same as understanding the “not available in your country” message and then finding a workaround (none offered on the official website, of course). Sure, some will look for and find workarounds, but I would bet many will simply not bother with it. And telling people to use a workaround presumably means telling people to break the law.

I personally just installed a fork of the app from the F-Droid store.

Looks like the digital Impfpass app (CovPass) is out… and not available on my US devices.

https://digitaler-impfnachweis-app.de/

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[charlesvestal]

@melancholyaeon the fact that the regulations are in place is clear. the fact that it is frustrating and not ideal is also clear.

The presumption is that if the issue of data transfer across borders is at issue, then an account from another country may in fact also violate that statute. I am of course also not a lawyer but demanding someone produce legal support as a first response is also not a productive line of conversation.

This issue exists because folks want the app on the US app store. Continuing to tell people “it is what it is” only serves to shut down any productive lines of inquiry and is dismissive of any discussion in this thread.

I am choosing to leave this request open despite the current RKI situation because there is still a valid need for supporting those that want the app, and may be unable or unwilling to create a secondary account.

I leave it to RKI to hopefully come to a solution, or the community to evaluate any technical solutions that might conform with the legal requirements.

[MikeMcC399]

@melancholyaeon

As for CovidPass, that's a different app, so I don't think anyone here in this thread can help you with that. Sorry again.

I tend to agree with you. There is a link to the Open Source project on https://github.com/digitaler-impfnachweis/ and https://github.com/Digitaler-Impfnachweis/documentation/issues shows an issue list.

Google Play Store https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.rki.covpass.app&hl=en also shows the developer contact information as impfnachweis-koordination@rki.de. That might be worth trying as a contact.

Edit: Corrected information about GitHub issue list. Apologies for previous misinformation.

[TheTravelGeek]

Agree that this isn't the place to discuss the CovPass app; I just mentioned it because so far it seems RKI have restricted its distribution as well (granted, maybe they haven't gotten around to release it everywhere considering that it is a new app or the legal eagles haven't signed off yet...). Since it presumably doesn't store information about other people and users could opt in to store their own data on their national servers, perhaps it doesn't face the same hurdles. We shall see. I will stop here.

[Ein-Tim]

Sorry for bringing this up again but why is it possible that luca is in the US-App Store and the CWA not? Slowly I start to believe that there is no problem with the law here (or all other EU apps and luca have very bad lawyers). It would be really interesting to get an official answer from the RKI here.

@rugk Would you maybe do a Informationsfreiheitsanfrage on www.fragdenstaat.de for this?

[rugk]

Well… if there would be a document that could outline this, maybe one could ask it. The official legalese documents i.e. contracts etc. are published already however. Maybe there you can find some agreement in which stores/countries it should/is allowed to be published?

I'm not sure there would be another document for that.

[rugk]

As a technical note for everyone affected, maybe you did miss this helpful comment:

I personally just installed a fork of the app from the F-Droid store.

So for everyone affected: You can for now install the fork CCTG from here or from the official F-Droid repository.

F-Droid is a good source for open-source apps anyway, so if you have not tried this yet, sure do. (see also https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-app-android/issues/1483)

[jucktnich]

@Ein-Tim The Luca app is neither by the government nor does it send the IDs to phones running it, so I guess one of this facts are problems

[Ein-Tim]

@jucktnich

If I go after the explanation by @melancholyaeon:

Among other things, you have to certify the data is encrypted in a manner that US intelligence can't crack! Neither you on your side at Corona-Warn nor Apple can make that guarantee for certain.

luca would have to ensure that in case I upload my keys from the USA it can't be cracked by an US intelligence. So either luca found a unhackable solution for this or they are doing something against the law, no?

[jucktnich]

On Luca ur just processing your own data I guess

[Ein-Tim]

I don't know, but even though luca had quite some scandals I can't imagine that they have lawyers that tell them to publish the app in the US store although it's against the law, so maybe somethings different here. I just wanted to add this, since I find it really hard to understand why the lawyers at the RKI decided that way, it would be so great if the reason for their decision could be made public, @GisoSchroederSAP do you see any way you could ask the RKI to do this?

This would not only help the community to better understand why the app isn't on the US store, but also it would be an opportunity for other lawyers to take a look at the reasoning behind the decision.

[jucktnich]

On Luca ur just processing where you have been (you're own data), on the CWA ur processing the data of positive tested persons (they're IDs) (data from other people). Maybe this is an edge case of the GDPR (in German DSGVO)

[yspreen]

Now that the CWA is used to digitalize vaccination statements, this issue is more relevant than ever.

I myself wrote most of the code to enable secure encryption and validation of digital vaccination statements over at DGCA Wallet and DGCA Verifier and still, I am unable to use the feature myself for nonsense political reasons, made by people who don't understand the gravity of their actions.

I'm a German citizen who works for international companies building mobile apps. For my job, I'm required to be registered in the US Apple App Store. I'm unable to install either the CWA or CovPass app. Due to my choice of profession and the consequences it has on my digital accounts, I cannot use the digital vaccination apps that are meant to serve the EU's citizens.

This is a perfect example of the EU failing its people for bogus political reasons, and we're a laughing stock for it. Opinions expressed in this comment are my own, I am no longer working with the DGCA teams or the EU.

[Ein-Tim]

@yspreen

Thank you (and your (ex-)colleagues) for programming and all the other stuff you do over at DGCA. You've enabled us all to use the digital vaccination certificate, and it's really a pitty that you can't use it!

Again: Than you! ❤️

[yspreen]

Thank you for the comment @Ein-Tim​!

It's been a challenging and interesting project like no other, and the people working on it from all sides have done tremendous work with such short deadlines. Congrats to all of them and everyone over here at CWA for exceeding expectations! 🎉

Nonetheless, working on a project with such a big impact comes with a bittersweet taste, when you know you'll be one of the many people who will not be able to use this amazing technology. It's a shame really

[amandadebler]

My solution as an American living in Germany who knows other Americans living in and visiting Germany: use any neighboring country’s notification app (they are literally all available in the US Apple App Store. I checked. Even Poland.) SwissCovid is my current pick, as it’s specifically integrated with Germany’s system. They must all have lazy lawyers or lax interpretations of data privacy laws. Whatever.

This does nothing for the whole digital vaccine pass issue, unless Switzerland is also on your itinerary and any pharmacies or however they’re validating shot records would do so for vaccines given outside of Switzerland. I have not researched that part, but will if we go visit my relatives there before RKI’s lawyers calm down.

Even if RKI’s lawyers never see a way to let CWA and CovPass into the US app stores, there needs to be a placeholder, because otherwise, people will install the spammy matches and really be setting up some privacy violations.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021, at 8:55 PM, TheTravelGeek wrote:

Agree that this isn't the place to discuss the CovPass app; I just mentioned it because so far it seems RKI have restricted its distribution as well (granted, maybe they haven't gotten around to release it everywhere considering that it is a new app or the legal eagles haven't signed off yet...). Since it presumably doesn't store information about other people and users can opt in to store their own data on their national servers, so perhaps it doesn't face the same hurdles. We shall see. I will stop here.

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[jucktnich]

Could please Someone explaine why it's not possible to go to the US AppStore, this would maybe help to mitigate the legal problems