Double check occitan terms

[thuchacz]

ISSUE: lack of <oc> tags in the DCE There are +/- two dozen words in the Glossary that have been flagged as Occitan or having Occitan connections (all listed below with their full glossary entry). However, very few of those terms appear to have been tagged consistently with <oc> tags across the DCE.

TASK: 1) determine whether the words in the list below actually merit being marked up as occitan 2) search for those words in the TCN add tags across all three versions (TC/TCN/TL). 3) Add translation using editorial comment

---

All words with an Occitan connection:

• [ ] Ambu (m., Occitan and Middle Fr. embut) = “funnel” (Bavarian dictionary of medieval Occitan DOM, DMF, Cotgrave). Embut is mainly used in Occitan, and synonymous of French “entonnoir” (also arbudel, diminutive). Doujat, Dictionnaire de la langue toulousaine, p. 92 (and 26). Examples in French also tend to be from the South.

• [ ] Armol (m., Occitan) = “orach”, i.e. Atriplex hortensis Sauvatges, 1, p. 28; D’Hombres-Charvet, 1, p. 69.

• [ ] Autan, haultan (Occitan autan) = “Autan wind”, i.e. SW/SSW wind Haultan, f. 13v, is an alternative spelling, Frenchified by the author.

• [ ] Avelane (f., Occitan avelana) = “hazelnut” 116v (MHS)

• [ ] Benarri, benarrin (m., occitan) = keep Fr., i.e. ortolan J. Doujat, Dict. langue toulousaine, p. 37; Salerne, L’histoire naturelle éclaircie, Paris 1767, p. 298.

• [ ] Bornat (m., Occitan, Saintonge bournat, Old and Middle Fr. bournal, bornal, etc.) = “honeycomb”, secondarily beehive Cotgrave: ‘Bornal de miel: a honeycombe”. — Dictionnaire provençal-français 1846: Bornat, ‘Ruche faite avec un panier d’osier ou de paille, en forme de cloche’. Bournat in Saintonge according to Godefroy, under Bournal. NB: this term also came up in #587

• [ ] Cedas (Occitan cedas, sedas) = “hair sieve” Sauvages, Dictionnaire languedocien-français, 2, p. 156

• [ ] Creuset, creuseau (m., Fr.), crusol (m., Occitan) = “crucible” Cotgrave has separate entries for Creuset and Crusol/Cruzeul. The MS also has some hybrid forms (MHS)

• [ ] Cussonner (Occitan) = “to become weeviled”, i.e. weevil-infested, of grain See Les mots de Toulouse: lexique du français toulousain. Only on p088r_5 (CD TT). — Cotgrave only says “worm-eaten” which, by analogy, applies to wood, but is irrelevant here (MHS 2018).

• [ ] Enssus, à l’ (adv. phrase, Occitan) = “upwards”. Doujat, Dictionnaire de la langue toulousaine, p. 99. Equivalent to Fr. “en sus” (without: à l’), also used in Fr. 640 (f. 94v…)

• [ ] Espasier (m., Occitan) = “furbisher” or swordsmith. On p011v_3, it seems to be used in the sense of furbisher, as the making of blades is not mentioned. See Provenzalisches Supplement-Wörterbuch. (Confirmed with JT 2018.)

• [ ] Estoc (m. mod. étau) = “vice” An Occitan word for Fr. étau, see panOccitan. p095r_1 (CD TT)

• [ ] Havets (m. pl., Occitan àbets) = “chaff” (p037v) http://www.etymologie-occitane.fr/2011/06/abes-abet/

• [ ] Mudat (ppl. Occitan) = “move” (p009v) https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k4170z/f169.item

• [ ] Parayre (m., Occitan) = “fuller”, i.e. a profession employed in finishing cloth using fine clay. See also: Terre des parayres

• [ ] Pegue (f., Occitan, Fr. poix) = “pitch” C. Buecheler 06/19/15: A question about this: in (modern) English, pitch is defined as black or dark (OED), which is not apparently the case for Cotgrave (cf. poix blanche de Bourgogne, etc.). Additionally, some "poix" is used in 074v to make a white varnish, suggesting it may be rather light in color. Is there a confusion with the translation "pitch"? Reply - PHS 06/05/16: when it runs from trees, it is often clear...I think pitch probably ok

• [ ] Pomole (f., Occitan paoumoulo, mod. Fr. paumelle) = keep Fr. “pomole”, i.e. a type of barley (9r). The Fr. word is derived from Occitan.

• [ ] Puys rodier (m., Occitan) = keep Fr. Fr. form of the Occitan word for a type of well operated with a wheel or wheels. Origines de la langue françoise (1650)

• [ ] Saba (f., Occitan, mod. Fr. sève) = “sap” (87v) (http://www.micmap.org/dicfro/search/littre/s%C3%A9ve)

• [ ] Sernaille (f., Occitan sarnalha) = “sand lizard”, i.e. Lacerta agilis See Raynouard, Lexique; Moreux & Razou, Les mots de Toulouse, p. 516; Vavassori, A bisto de nas. Rolland, Faune populaire… (MHS)

• [ ] Viron, biron (m., Occitan) = “gimlet” — CHECK spelling, the variant English form “gimblet” seems to have been used when translating guimbelet (MHS 2018) Possibly an alternative Occitan name for the tool that the author usually calls “guimbelet”, 168r (MHS). Appears first as Biron (Gascon pronunciation) then Viron on the same page. NB The word is not unknown in northern French, but rare and archaic (one example from Flanders 1396 in DMF, unrecorded in TLFi), and the “biron” form is clearly regional.

• [ ] Visaube or bisaube, initial uncertain (f., Occitan) = keep in Fr.? i.e. probably white briony, Bryonia alba. Fol. 15v_6. From Latin vitis alba (see Mémoire de la Société archéologique et historique de la Charente p. 248, — date? wrong link removed by MHS), used in Occitan and in the French dialect of the Saintonge (See Glossaire saintongeais 1887, and Revue critique d’histoire et de littérature 1866, p. 27, which lists “visaube” among 200 words used by farmers from Saintonge). Described by Pliny (See Nouveau Dictionnaire d’histoire naturelle appliquée aux arts, 1819). (CD TT). The spelling bisaube would reflect the Gascon pronunciation.

• [ ] Visme (m. Occitan, mod. vime) = a species of willow (often salix viminalis), employed for basket making, wicker, and thatch, among other uses. It is Occitan word for the French “osier,” cultivated along the Garonne. Sometimes called “withy” or “osier” in English. (http://www.etymologie-occitane.fr/2011/11/vim/) (SM, 7/3/2018). See also Arnauld Landric, Advertissement et manière d'enter asseurément les arbres en toute saison de l'année, la vigne sur son sarment, planter sauvageaux et autres, 1580.

[TillmannTaape]

I also changed the TL on 13v, from "Candlemakers never make good candle when the Autan wind blows because it is always melty" to "Candlemakers never make good candles when the Autan wind blows because the candle always tends to melt" – the "it" in the previous TL was ambiguous in the English, whereas in the French it's clear from the grammatical gender that it refers to the candle (therefore no sup tags required). And "melty" just sounds too informal.

[thuchacz]

The only issue there is to, perhaps, NOT tag that pseudo-supped "candle" as a tool—as we always do with every instance of candle—since we can't consistently tag across all three versions. I'm sure that problem partly motivated the "it is always melty" translation.

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 10:03 PM Tillmann Taape notifications@github.com wrote:

I also changed the TL on 13v, from "Candlemakers never make good candle when the Autan wind blows because it is always melty" to "Candlemakers never make good candles when the Autan wind blows because the candle always tends to melt" – the "it" in the previous TL was ambiguous in the English, whereas in the French it's clear from the grammatical gender that it refers to the candle (therefore no sup tags required). And "melty" just sounds too informal.

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[TillmannTaape]

Good point, I won't tag it as tl.

[TillmannTaape]

Re crusol – I don't think it's worth reverting all 52 instances in the TL to "crusol", with a note explaining that it's Occitan for crucible. As MHS notes in the glossary, the ms has hybrid French/Occitan spellings as well, which raises the question how we should treat those. We could treat crusol as a variant spelling of creuset etc., i.e. list it in the glossary table as an alternative spelling, with (Occitan) in parentheses, but not tag it. On the other hand, that would mean that someone pulling out all the oc tags would miss the fact that he uses the Occitan version of the word a lot. But I'm still resisting the idea of keeping crusol every time in the TL and adding a note to the first instance in each entry; it seems very clunky.

[thuchacz]

Yeah. I see the dilemma. Since he doesn't use this term exclusively to refer to a crucible, I think we should tag it. I agree that the editorial comment would be clunky, so we should go the route we went with "crocum" and "crocum ferri"—i.e., give foreign language tags and rendering, but no editorial comments, only a glossary entry.

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 10:59 PM Tillmann Taape notifications@github.com wrote:

Re crusol – I don't think it's worth reverting all 52 instances in the TL to "crusol", with a note explaining that it's Occitan for crucible. As MHS notes in the glossary, the ms has hybrid French/Occitan spellings as well, which raises the question how we should treat those. We could treat crusol as a variant spelling of creuset etc., i.e. list it in the glossary table as an alternative spelling, with (Occitan) in parentheses, but not tag it. On the other hand, that would mean that someone pulling out all the oc tags would miss the fact that he uses the Occitan version of the word a lot. But I'm still resisting the idea of keeping crusol every time in the TL and adding a note to the first instance in each entry; it seems very clunky.

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[TillmannTaape]

That sounds good. And leave it translated in the TL?

[thuchacz]

Anything with OC tags will be italicized, as a rule. So, we shouldn't translate this. Just leave it as crusol and trust that the reader will look it up. It may be a common, pseudo-French variant, but if we want people to notice he's using 2 words, one of which is more occitan than the other, we need to simply treat it as occitan. I'm sure this is not really satisfying...

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:27 PM Tillmann Taape notifications@github.com wrote:

That sounds good. And leave it translated in the TL?

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[TillmannTaape]

Not really, but I see the logic and don't have a better idea. @ps2270 ?

[TillmannTaape]

For words which are derived from Occitan but Frenchified, such as pomole and sernaille, I assume we want to keep it in the TL as writ in the TC/TCN, with an editorial note to explain the meaning and that it comes from an occitan word. But, should we tag it as fr, since it is quite far from the original occitan? Or ignore this and tag as occitan so that it comes up when you pull out oc-tagged terms? I think probably the latter but not sure.

[thuchacz]

Another good question. Since the OC terms (technical or otherwise) are comparatively few, I'm inclined to tag. And, if you think it's a weird enough case, we COULD give both OC and FR tags. The consequence (as above) is that they will be italicized in all three versions. So far, we have decided to provide editorial comments for all but a handful of widely recurring terms (which will be explained in the glossary).

Unsolicited opinion: frankly, I think it is silly of us NOT to give editorial comments for "crocum (ferri)" and "crusol." But that's a discussion for a later date.

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:54 PM Tillmann Taape notifications@github.com wrote:

à l'enssus: Should we tag it oc, but keep the translation "on the top" in the TL since it's just an adverbial phrase and not a technical term?

For words which are derived from Occitan but Frenchified, such as pomole and sernaille, I assume we want to keep it in the TL as writ in the TC/TCN, with an editorial note to explain the meaning and that it comes from an occitan word. But, should we tag it as fr, since it is quite far from the original occitan? Or ignore this and tag as occitan so that it comes up when you pull out oc-tagged terms? I think probably the latter but not sure.

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[ps2270]

I'm trying to close the loop here on this issue, and the question referred to me:

Another good question. Since the OC terms (technical or otherwise) are comparatively few, I'm inclined to tag. And, if you think it's a weird enough case, we COULD give both OC and FR tags. The consequence (as above) is that they will be italicized in all three versions. So far, we have decided to provide editorial comments for all but a handful of widely recurring terms (which will be explained in the glossary). DECISION (if still needed): I think this makes sense to do it this way.

Unsolicited opinion: frankly, I think it is silly of us NOT to give editorial comments for "crocum (ferri)" and "crusol." But that's a discussion for a later date. PHS: I would agree with that, if we can automate it somehow... …

[TillmannTaape]

I have tagged all terms listed above and their cognates in the TL as <oc>, however, I have ONLY reinserted the original word in the TL, with an ed note containing the translation, for the terms ticked in the above list – pending a decision on whether to translate these or not.

[ps2270]

I forgot to bring this up yesterday. Tillmann and I were discussing this a few days ago, and came up with the following idea about <oc> and <po> words: We translate them into English, and direct Nick to italicize all words in tl, and potentially tcn that have these two tag sets. This seems a good idea b/c Some oc words are repeated many, many times (crusol, viron, biron) They are always single words, unlike the Latin passages or Italian strings of words. They are different than the gk and de (German) words, which, although single, are untranslatable. The italicization would signal to the reader that there is something up with this word and they could go to the glossary to read about it. And, of course, the italicization would be noted in a ReadMe document.

Does anyone see any potential problems with this solution? @thuchacz @TillmannTaape @Pantagrueliste @njr2128 ???

[TillmannTaape]

I agree we should translate occitan and poitevin tags but tag them in all three versions. Italicising them in the TL is unproblematic, but I'm not sure it's a good idea in the TCN or TC – this is perhaps a question for Marc.

Alternatively, we could flag these words with a superscript O/P, or "Occ."/"Poit", or some other mark.

[Pantagrueliste]

I do not see any problem with this solution in the TL. I would not apply this in the TC, however.

[ps2270]

DECISION: We translate all <oc> and <po> terms into English, and direct Nick to italicize in the tl ONLY words with these tag sets. If anyone has strong objections, now is the time to state them. If we don't hear today, @TillmannTaape can you please go back and retranslate whatever you have reverted previously!

[thuchacz]

This is a bit different than what we had decided previously, which was to treat Occitan as the separate language that it is (i.e., use <oc> tags, have those words render in italics, give their meaning in the glossary and, if they appear with limited frequency, give the translation in an editorial comment). In this way, we would treat Occitan just as we do Latin, German, Italian, and Spanish. As Poitevin is a French dialect, we decided we would tag all those terms with <po> tags, though not have those tags impact rendering (i.e., no italics), note the Poitevin origin of all those words in the glossary, and we would translate the term as we would any other French word. In other words, <po> tags would be silent tags (like most of our semantic markup) that would be there for the purposes of analysis but not rendering.

In what you are proposing now, you are demoting Occitan from the status of a separate language and promoting Poitevin to something more than French.

[thuchacz]

The issue with Occitan is politically charged, esp. given the French government's active oppression of minority languages (e.g., Occitan, Breton) well into the 20th century. I think it should be treated as a language.

[ps2270]

Thanks. Well, we can not treat poitevin in this way, if that seems a solution to the language issue. My decision can be interpreted not to mean that it's not a separate language, but the fact that these are individual words, not strings of words, or passages, as in other cases (except putative German words). The pages will look very cluttered with all those asterisks for ed comms for biron/viron and crusol.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:28 AM thuchacz notifications@github.com wrote:

The issue with Occitan is politically charged, esp. given the French government's active oppression of minority languages (e.g., Occitan, Breton) well into the 20th century. I think it should be treated as a language.

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[Pantagrueliste]

Setting nationalist considerations aside, Occitan is technically a language. But a language already in decline in the 16th century, especially after the Ordinance of Villers-Cotterêts in 1539. Our manuscript bears witness of this decline, with relatively few Occitan words for a text originated in early modern Toulouse. If signalling Occitan words results in a messy and cluttered rendering of the text, then I have no objection in making all regional tags silent.

[ps2270]

silent, or italicized in the case of Occitan?

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:03 AM Clément Godbarge notifications@github.com wrote:

Setting nationalist considerations aside, Occitan is technically a language. But a language already in decline at the end of the 16th century, especially after the Ordinance of Villers-Cotterêts in 1539. Our manuscript bears witness of this decline, with relatively few Occitan words for a text originated in early modern Toulouse. If signalling Occitan words results in a messy and cluttered rendering of the text, then I have no objection in making all regional tags silent.

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[Pantagrueliste]

I think we either silence all regional tags (including Occitan) or we italicize them (including Occitan).

[TillmannTaape]

I completely agree re the political implications of recognising Occitan as a language, but my sense is that the AP is not using it as a language in the same way he does Latin or Italian. He may very well have no knowledge of Occitan but use a few terms which have made their way into daily French language in the South – hence also his various degrees of gallicisation of these words. So I think we're ok to flag them as Occitan or Occitan-derived words used in French without doing injustice to Occitan as a language. In some ways, we might be doing it a greater injustice by implying that throwing in the odd word into a French sentence constitutes proper use of Occitan as a language.

I'm in favour of italicising in the TL, and even in all three versions if that seems reconcilable with our transcription protocol (has Marc pronounced on this?).

[ps2270]

Marc has not yet been asked, but I think I have everyone opinions at the moment, so I'll ask him now.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:30 PM Tillmann Taape notifications@github.com wrote:

I completely agree re the political implications of recognising Occitan as a language, but my sense is that the AP is not using it as a language in the same way he does Latin or Italian. He may very well have no knowledge of Occitan but use a few terms which have made their way into daily French language in the South – hence also his various degrees of gallicisation of these words. So I think we're ok to flag them as Occitan or Occitan-derived words used in French without doing injustice to Occitan as a language. In some ways, we might be doing it a greater injustice by implying that throwing in the odd word into a French sentence constitutes proper use of Occitan as a language.

I'm in favour of italicising in the TL, and even in all three versions if that seems reconcilable with our transcription protocol (has Marc pronounced on this?).

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[TillmannTaape]

I've reverted to the English word in the TL, except for visaube which we are leaving in the original because we're not entirely sure what it is. I've removed comment anchors and marked the comment for deletion in the comment tracking sheet, except where the comment was fulfilling some additional function besides merely translating the Occitan word.

[ps2270]

Marc's answer: " I rather agree those words should be made as unobtrusive as possible for the reader. There is no clear-cut linguistic boundary there, and the author wouldn't have considered those words foreign, they are seamlessly incorporated into his own language. Some words are names of local things ("millas"), others are local words that can actually be of Occitan origin or just pronounced and written in a more or less southern way. So they are interesting to annotate as cultural evidence and clues to the author's linguistic profile, but hardly more than that. Poitevin of course is even less distinct from standard French (whatever that was at the time)." And he says he would not italicize in the tcn.

DECISION: We'll translate into English and ask Nick to italicize <oc> tags in the TL only. I see Tillmann has already acted on this decision. Thanks. @TillmannTaape have you also changed the Comment Tracking Sheet?

[ps2270]

@TillmannTaape Meant to say: If you haven't changed comment tracking, let me know. I'm deep in it anyway, so I can do it, if not.

[TillmannTaape]

@ps2270 Yes, in the tracking sheet I've marked as "delete" those comments which were only the translation from occitan, and taken out the comment anchors in the files.

[ps2270]

great. thanks.

On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 10:22 AM Tillmann Taape notifications@github.com wrote:

@ps2270 https://github.com/ps2270 Yes, in the tracking sheet I've marked as "delete" those comments which were only the translation from occitan, and taken out the comment anchors in the files.

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[TillmannTaape]

Can we close this issue? Has Nick been told to italicise oc tags in TL only, or is this noted somewhere else?

[ps2270]

@njr2128 If your next meeting with Nick is this week, can you please let him know our decision, or I can make an issue about it in his repo?

[ps2270]

@njr2128 Can we close this issue?

[ps2270]

Final Decision: No italicization of <oc> tag in any version. TT, CAG, & MHS write up a paragraph on the use of these in the ms.

[njr2128]

This has been updated in https://github.com/cu-mkp/making-knowing-edition/issues/235 and a new issue created for the explanation text to be written: #1145