New icon / symbolic icon

[cvfosammmm]

There was some discussion about this at https://gitlab.gnome.org/cvfosammmm/setzer/issues/2 .

It should continue here on GitHub, so all things Setzer are in the same place.

[cvfosammmm]

I made some improvements to the existing logo using the "lines of text" from one of the designs in the Gitlab thread. It looks more interesting now, but I think a completely new icon is still desirable.

[bertob]

Took another stab at this:

[cvfosammmm]

Thanks a lot. To be honest I'm not a fan of this metaphor, but I like how the paper looks in this one.

My latest idea is this: a hand holding a page or maybe a stack of pages, like for review. Imagine the logs icon above with a hand holding the paper instead of the magnifier. What do you think?

[bertob]

a hand holding a page or [...] stack of pages

I'm not sure, that seems very generic and not closely connected enough to what the app does. Something printing/typesetting-related makes more sense metaphor-wise IMO.

I personally quite like the printing press in its latest iteration. Any specific criticisms I could try to address? Otherwise we still can try something else, but I currently can't think of anything better.

[cvfosammmm]

Holding paper: I agree that it's generic, but it seems to fit. It's not more generic than the paper stack you posted on Gitlab. I'm also quite sure that it's an improvement over the current icon, and I'm not sure about that with the other metaphors we have tried. Also the specificity could come through the contents of the paper (what's on in).

Printing press: it just doesn't fit the experience of setting text in LaTeX. You don't print actually, you set text (and graphics, ...). Many people might not even know what this object is.

[cvfosammmm]

Regarding the letters metaphor: what do you think of something like the old Gnome characters icon? I also like the new one.

[bertob]

what do you think of something like the old Gnome characters icon? I also like the new one.

The old one was very non-geometric and doesn't really work in this style, which is why we changed the metaphor when updating it for the new style :)

Something like the new one could work, potentially. What characters would you use?

[bertob]

New attempt: A type case! I'm not sure how recognizable it is, but I wanted to give it a try.

One problem is that in reality the letters wouldn't be nicely stacked, but in random piles. From that PoV the empty case might be better.

[bertob]

Gave the characters-style thing a try. It's a little boring, but it could work.

[bertob]

Tried to make the characters idea more interesting:

[jsparber]

I really love Setzer. The editor has an awesome feel and looks great. But i think the current icon destroys the modern look and feel of the app. I would really like to see a fancy icon which fits the the overall style of the app. I like this one https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-606693670.

[kowalski7cc]

I totally agree with @jsparber about the current icon, but I feel the characters-style (https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-606693670) may be confused with the other characters app. I really like this https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-576743512 and this https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-584570219 (first one) tho (Or even this: https://gitlab.gnome.org/cvfosammmm/setzer/uploads/a034d8e04604fa68feac202467ac703f/image.png)

[bertob]

@cvfosammmm Ping? :)

If you like any of these directions I'd be happy to do more iterations, otherwise we can still try something else.

[cvfosammmm]

Sorry for the long silence. I still don't think any of these is an obvious improvement over the existing icon. My favorite direction currently could be called "letter salad". The old Gnome Characters icon would be an example of that, perhaps. But it could also be flat and seemingly random, with math symbols and letters, and different tones and sizes, but preferably gray scale (maybe with one additional color).

[bebeki]

I'm learning LaTex and am waiting for Setzer to get an icon that's consistent with the GNOME style before fully diving in. I believe any of these icons would be an improvement over the existing one, but I agree that their design metaphors are unclear.

I would add that I only found out what the word Setzer means by reading the previous GitLab page. Many of us have no idea what the name means, which means the icon has to be even more obvious to compensate. That's a big challenge. So far https://gitlab.gnome.org/cvfosammmm/setzer/uploads/a034d8e04604fa68feac202467ac703f/image.png at least communicates to me that the app is about viewing or creating documents, though I personally prefer https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-576743512 as it is very distinct from existing GNOME apps. The "letter salad" idea makes me think about an app centered around characters, like GNOME Characters and GNOME Fonts, not an app about documents.

[bertob]

I still don't think any of these is an obvious improvement over the existing icon.

That's debatable, but I think we can all agree that the current icon is off-style, and that's the main problem I'd like to fix. Seeing as finding the perfect metaphor is proving to be quite challenging, how about just updating the eagle + page metaphor to something more in line with the style for now?

That way it would at least fit in with other apps for now, even if the metaphor isn't super clear. We can continue to try different metaphors of course, but at least the icon would be nicer in the mean time.

[bertob]

Here's a quick attempt at keeping the status quo metaphor but following the style a little better:

[cvfosammmm]

I don't think the status quo metaphor is worth keeping.

Somehow the 4 characters icon is growing on me. I think that's probably a good direction. Can you try combining it with the one after that? I mean 4 characters but with a dark background?

Does anyone strongly dislike the characters direction?

[cvfosammmm]

Maybe we could also use different background colors, like App Icon Preview or Icon Library.

[bertob]

Quick experiment making the characters thing dark:

[cvfosammmm]

I like it. It looks a bit small, and it really is a bit smaller than Characters. I would also maybe reduce the height to be in line with Calculator and App Icon Preview. Can you also try alternating backgrounds?

[bertob]

It looks a bit small, and it really is a bit smaller than Characters

It's exactly the same size as all the other square icons (I just checked and the Characters one is a bit too tall, looks like App Icon Preview ships with an old version). I suspect it maybe visually appears to be smaller on dark backgrounds compared to light icons, because light tends to "bleed out" and make objects appear larger.

By alternating backgrounds you mean something like this?

[cvfosammmm]

Can you try reducing the height, removing the gaps on top, and making the side the same color as the respective top (like AppIconPreview)?

[bertob]

Could work:

[bertob]

@cvfosammmm Ping? :)

[cvfosammmm]

Sorry again for the long silence. Some remarks:

• I think it should be quadratic.
• Maybe the colors can be improved. Maybe different shades of one color? Or maybe 2 colors, but 3 is probably too much.

[bertob]

Do you have any particular colors in mind?

Here are some color explorations with fewer different shades:

[cvfosammmm]

I think we're getting close! Could you reduce the height a bit?

[bertob]

The overall shape is the square base size, so I don't think it makes sense to change that. What we can do is change the thickness of the object, like so:

[taltstidl]

For what it's worth, I think the app icons using the math symbol grids are (a) too generic and (b) look too similar to the new GNOME Characters icon. I wouldn't exactly associate a LaTeX editor with that icon - in fact it reminds me more of an advanced math calculator than a typesetting application (see e.g. a quick Google search for "calculator icon android ios"). Personally, I'd think something that shows a page layout with some typesetting features, such as the decorated drop cap idea, is a lot more recognizable and descriptive. The GNOME Latex icon pretty much nailed it in that respect, but this project's icon would obviously need to differ. I also love the idea of the printing press as it embraces the typesetting part of LaTeX, yet it's a bit too noisy for my taste and focuses too much on the press rather than the document. Maybe a row of letter stamps at the bottom of a drop-cap document could work as a metaphor?

Anyhow, just wanted to put my two cents in :smiley: Kudos to both @cvfosammmm for the great LaTeX editor and @bertob for the amazing work on all the new icons. I really do appreciate all the effort!

[cvfosammmm]

@bertob that's what I meant.

[bertob]

@cvfosammmm cool, I'll open an MR then!

[cvfosammmm]

@bertob the height reduction. I will not pull this right now.

[bertob]

@cvfosammmm I don't follow, the height is reduced. Or what do you mean?

[cvfosammmm]

"change the thickness of the object", that's what I meant by "reduce the height".

@TR4Android I think you have a point. However I do think the new direction works well visually. Maybe we could change the symbols and make them more abstract to make it look less like a calculator.

[cvfosammmm]

About the colors: I think the first and second ones look too much like a game. I like the green one best.

[taltstidl]

@cvfosammmm Since LaTeX is commonly used for mathematical typesetting (one of its greatest strengths in my opinion) I'm not sure what other characters might be representative enough to be recognizable. How about keeping the characters in their current two by two grid, but embedding these in a bookshelf-like type case. Somewhat similar to what @bertob had already previously explored, but with the letters facing the user, like this. Also, if you want to go the extra mile you'd need to mirror the characters so everything's properly typeset when printed :wink: Just an idea, I'm not sure how much the colors actually contribute to the metaphor by the way.

[bertob]

"change the thickness of the object", that's what I meant by "reduce the height".

@cvfosammmm yeah, I did that in the MR though, so I'm not sure what your concern was.

Regarding the symbols, I'd be happy to try different ones but I don't think it currently looks like a calculator.

@TR4Android if you want a less abstract metaphor, the printing press is as good as it gets. We tried various typesetting/letter things, but it ends up being unrecognizable and/or boring. Personally, I'm mostly interested in getting something merged ASAP, we can always change it later...

Here's an iteration on the green one, trying to make it look a little more interesting:

[bertob]

And just FYI, among the more abstract ones my favorite is still this one: It's a lot more unique and visually interesting, while clearly being Latex related.

[cvfosammmm]

@bertob can you upload the green ones as SVGs? I would like to test them in production.

[bertob]

Updated the MR

[cvfosammmm]

@bertob I think the green one doesn't look good in production. But I think the following changes make it look quite a bit better:

• Could you use the following colors (from the gnome palette)? top left - Light 3, top right - Light 2, bottom left - Light 4, bottom right - Dark 1
• Make the text black

This also brings it much closer to the metallic letter metaphor.

[bertob]

Gave that a try, not sure it works:

[taltstidl]

Here's a quick mock-up of what I had in mind. The colors probably need a bit of love, especially to ensure they conform as much as possible with the GNOME HIG colors. I just took a quick stab at it based on the type case idea posted earlier by @bertob, I'm sure he could do a way better job at this than me :smile:. We could probably explore different shades of gray for the metallic letters. Also, don't mind the missing symbolic icon for now, I can take care of this if there's interest. Not sure if this variant has any merit, but wanted to throw it out there.

Edit to add source file for those interested: org.example.Setzer.Source.svg (rename to .svg after download)

[cvfosammmm]

@bertob Can you reintroduce the gaps from https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-647144670 ? But make the much smaller (less wide). Also can you make the letters "stand out" like they did in previous iterations?

[cvfosammmm]

@TR4Android I think that looks very much like a blackboard. But I'm also not a fan of the general direction. What do you think of the latest iteration by @bertob ?

[morgenman]

Personally, the 2x2 grid style does not look like a feature application, it looks like a tool or system shortcut. The best one on here was this one Take this, put a simple looking pen or quill across it, and I think we might be in business. Maybe make the letter a little bit less fancy. Gnome Latex is a good example of what an icon should be like. I know it's some sort of editor/typesetter before I even click on it. Looking at the grid icons above I imagine it's either a calculator or a character select (the grid implies lots of buttons/boxes to press once you open it).

[taltstidl]

@cvfosammmm Here's a new attempt that looks a little less like a blackboard and uses some of the colors that you had suggested earlier (i.e. dark symbols on a light background). Not sure it's significantly better as it moves even farther away from the "metallic letter" metaphor...

In general I tend to agree with @morgenman's assessment. I don't think the color scheme can do a lot to alleviate any of these concerns, hence the latest iteration by @bertob is not a real improvement on this front. But that's just my two cents. I had a feeling that @cvfosammmm seemed to be quite fond of the 2x2 grid recently, which is why I had suggested encasing these characters in a type case sort of thing. It can only do so much in distinguishing this icon from e.g. the Character, Fonts or Minesweeper apps that all sort of follow the 2x2 scheme.

So far, we've had the following suggestions [feel free to edit if I missed some]:

• typesetter press (see https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-576743512)
• type case with or without letters (see https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-584570219)
• single metallic character (see image and https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-622533174)
• 2x2 character grid in various color schemes (too many to list, see this thread)
• 2x2 character grid encased in type case (see above)
• document with calligraphic drop cap (see image)
• status quo icon adapted to new standards (see https://github.com/cvfosammmm/Setzer/issues/6#issuecomment-647047480)

I believe both the "typesetter press" and "document with calligraphic drop cap" ideas to be the best as they give an indication of what this app is for - it's about creating documents using LaTeX! Some form of paper document should ideally be part of the icon. In that respect even the remixed status quo icon is better. Might make a good interim icon that fits the current style, though GNOME in general seems to be moving away from the mascot idiom.

All the character-based icons make too many assumptions about the content of the document. No doubt, mathematical typesetting is one of the major strengths of LaTeX and a common feature among these documents. But only including math symbols here cries too much math, math, math in my opinion and makes it look more like a math suite to me. For what it's worth, I'd say these icons would be better suited for Computer Algebra Systems.

Again, this is only my opinion and I hopefully didn't offend anyone! :smiley:

[cvfosammmm]

I'm using a variant of bertobs latest icon in production. While it may take some getting used to, I think it works well in all contexts. It's interesting what you said about character-based icons, but I think it's possible to make them more abstract. The current set is too much focused on math though, I agree.

[bertob]

New attempt, I like the shape but not sure about the colors: