New weapon: Catalyst DMR

[deferred-impact]

Technically nonlethal ammunition.

copy from M1 magsize 8 damage 0

Bullets which hit an enemy, get "stuck" in that enemy. Once an enemy has 3 Catalyst bullets stuck in them, they can be instakilled by the Catalyst Burst. Reload your weapon. Once the reload finishes, all enemies that are within your line of sight, and have 3 or more Catalyst bullets stuck in them, are immediately killed!

Catalyst bullets can be dislodged by standing still for 10 seconds. This dislodges all bullets stuck in you.

Strong weapon. But also awkward to use. It also sucks in team fights, as it deals no actual damage and only really synergises with other Catalysts

[ghost]

So I would assume some sort of marker would have to indicate how many catalyst bullets someone has been hit with, or maybe make them glow a certain color if they have enough catalyst bullets in them. Basically a c4, but slower, and less efficient. As a counter, I would recommend allowing players to dislodge bullets by standing still for only 5 seconds, or to kill someone (maybe just the catalyst shooter) in order to get rid of them.

[deferred-impact]

Yes, ideally there would be a way to see how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in someone. (Though on the other hand, the game doesn't show enemy HP, so why should it show this?)

Hm, removing all stuck bolts from you upon killing someone sounds rather interesting.

[ghost]

Though on the other hand, the game doesn't show enemy HP, so why should it show this?

Because it doesn't explicitly show health, but it is necessary for both the shooter and enemy to know what situation they are in.

[deferred-impact]

If this is true:

but it is necessary for both the shooter and enemy to know what situation they are in.

then why doesn't the game show health?

Catalyst bolts are the same as health, just processed separately. The amount of bolts stuck in you tells you how close you are to dying. If the game doesn't show enemy health, then why should it show enemy bolts?

Plus, you have previously dismissed my "it's useful to know how much health an enemy has" argument in #225. Now you're asking "for both the shooter and enemy to know what situation they are in"?

[ghost]

then why doesn't the game show health?

You misinterpreted my words. In the context of a catalyst, it is important for one to know if they will be killed instantly by it or not, whether they took 3 shots. Showing how many catalysts you have been hit with does not directly reveal health, but provides enough info for both sides to now react. The catalyst shooter now knows: oh boy! I gotta reload before he kills me! The enemy now knows: Oh boy! I gotta kill him before he reloads (if that is the counter to the catalyst) Again, showing if you have been hit by a catalyst does not explicitly show your current health, but rather the potential position of your health in the future.

If the game doesn't show enemy health, then why should it show enemy bolts?

Because again, like in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/225, knowing if you are to be one-shotted is a priority. Idk what logic you mushed together to come up with "Well if health bar is banned, then so is catalyst one shot info", but they aren't the same feature. Health bar shows current health, and Catalyst shows if you are about to be one shotted or not.

Plus, you have previously dismissed my "it's useful to know how much health an enemy has" argument in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/225. Now you're asking "for both the shooter and enemy to know what situation they are in"?

A. Different context different inputs B. Catalyst nor hit markers display health, exactly. They display damage, which then has the potential to convert into the deduction of health. And that's completely fine, because it shows potential health (important to the attacker and defender), not current health. C. When did I ignore it, exactly?

[deferred-impact]

What is the difference between

how many catalysts you have been hit

and

health

?

"Well if health bar is banned, then so is catalyst one shot info", but they aren't the same feature.

They are incredibly similar.

Health bar shows current health, and Catalyst shows if you are about to be one shotted or not.

The health bar also shows if you are about to be one shotted or not. If it shows i'm at 30 HP, then i know i'll die to the next HS shot. If it shows i'm at 5 HP, then i know i will die to any shot that hits me.

They display damage, which then has the potential to convert into the deduction of health.

Calling it "damage" and "potential deduction of health" is dishonest. It's an instakill.

My point is simple. Just the same way how by knowing health you get to know if you're about to die, knowing how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in you, tells you if you're about to die.

C. When did I ignore it, exactly?

You didn't ignore it, you dismissed it.

[ghost]

They are incredibly similar.

Similar, yes. They aren't the same though. Like I explained, they don't provide the same type of evidence, which is what matters when we decide which one should be visible to everyone.

Calling it "damage" and "potential deduction of health" is dishonest. It's an instakill.

Yeah...? Like what's the point? Ofc, it's an instakill, but that only depends if someone reloads faster than the enemy can counter their catalyst.

My point is simple. Just the same way how by knowing health you get to know if you're about to die, knowing how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in you, tells you if you're about to die.

lmfao you only look at one side of the equation. I can assume you've failed algebra.

A health bar only tells its user if they are going to die, which is reasonable. But it also gives them specifics on what can kill them, whether they can entire a fight safely, or are near to death. Catalyst provides one type of info: you will die.

And even if health and catalyst showed the same statistics, which they don't, it would be necessary to make it visible because it is important for both sides. The shooter needs to know if they are able to kill their enemy, if they can use the weapon at the right time, and the person shot needs to know, in order to realize when they need to counter it.

Imagine being someone who got killed by catalyst, because you didn't even comprehend when 3 strikes killed you, because the game never informed you about your imminent death, and never gave you a chance to counter it.

Imagine being someone in a heated fight, who shoots multiple shots rapidly, and has no guarantee that they have hit 3 shots, because they could have hit them offscreen and not know, or could have missed one an not realized, etc.

You didn't ignore it, you dismissed it.

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

dude you choose to ignore literally 70% of all the points I provide in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/211, because you assumed that they would be shit or something, and you complain about me dismissing a singular sentence of yours??

Something that isn't of priority, just isn't of priority. Knowing health in combat is important, but that would also mean that knowing one shot info is more important knowledge rather than something that you can predict and survive.

[deferred-impact]

A health bar only tells its user if they are going to die, which is reasonable. But it also gives them specifics on what can kill them, whether they can entire a fight safely, or are near to death. Catalyst provides one type of info: you will die.

Catalyst provides the exact same type of info. What can kill you? If 3 bolts, Catalyst can. if 2 or fewer bolts, Catalyst cannot. Can you enter a fight safely? I don't know, does the enemy have a Catalyst DMR?

The shooter needs to know if they are able to kill their enemy, if they can use the weapon at the right time, and the person shot needs to know, in order to realize when they need to counter it.

Literally everything said here applies to ordinary health as well.

Imagine being someone in a heated fight, who shoots multiple shots rapidly, and has no guarantee that they have hit 3 shots, because they could have hit them offscreen and not know, or could have missed one an not realized, etc.

This, but you're using an ordinary AR instead of the Catalyst DMR. Imagine?

dude you choose to ignore literally 70% of all the points I provide in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/211, because you assumed that they would be shit or something, and you complain about me dismissing a singular sentence of yours??

You still haven't replied to me in #211, lmao.

Something that isn't of priority, just isn't of priority. Knowing health in combat is important, but that would also mean that knowing one shot info is more important knowledge rather than something that you can predict and survive.

It's not one shot info, though. Catalyst DMR takes 4 hits to kill: 3 bolts and the final reload blast. In that, it behaves literally, exactly, like health.

[ghost]

Catalyst provides the exact same type of info. What can kill you? If 3 bolts, Catalyst can. if 2 or fewer bolts, Catalyst cannot. Can you enter a fight safely? I don't know, does the enemy have a Catalyst DMR?

fucking what

Literally everything said here applies to ordinary health as well.

How...now, exactly? The person shot already knows they've been hit so like...how would that require an enemy to be able to see your health?

This, but you're using an ordinary AR instead of the Catalyst DMR. Imagine?

Not related. You wanna argue that, start an issue for it (if there isn't one already).

You still haven't replied to me in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/211, lmao.

A. You dismiss most of what I say, no point of it. B. You lack the intelligence to understand my point, I'm not gonna waste time on something with no possible progression. C. Hilarious dodge of my point about you dismissing my words.

It's not one shot info, though. Catalyst DMR takes 4 hits to kill: 3 bolts and the final reload blast. In that, it behaves literally, exactly, like health.

what...???? how the fuck does a four shot weapon compare to a health meter? health doesn't stick 3 bolts in you and kill you lmfao

[deferred-impact]

How...now, exactly? The person shot already knows they've been hit so like...how would that require an enemy to be able to see your health?

Are we discussing being able to see how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in you, or being able to see how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in an enemy? The two are different and the conflation of them creates confusion. Please pick one.

Not related. You wanna argue that, start an issue for it (if there isn't one already).

Very related. I don't think we have an issue for it. But if you want this Catalyst DMR to show enemy ~health~ amount of bolts stuck in them, then all weapons should show enemy health. I just want consistency.

B. You lack the intelligence to understand my point, I'm not gonna waste time on something with no possible progression.

How ironic, given how long i've been trying to explain to you how "amount of bolts stuck in player" is the same as "amount of health a player has"

A. You dismiss most of what I say, no point of it. C. Hilarious dodge of my point about you dismissing my words.

I didn't dismiss them. All of your words are about "omg what if enemy shoots rocks, then there will be fire everywhere!!1" My reply is a simple illustration showing that no, there won't be fire everywhere.

how the fuck does a four shot weapon compare to a health meter?

The M1 is a 4 shot kill weapon. How does that compare???? Really?

[ghost]

Are we discussing being able to see how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in you, or being able to see how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in an enemy? The two are different and the conflation of them creates confusion. Please pick one.

Dude, it's not that complex. I explained both perspectives, and its a seemingly simple relationship. If one scenario upsets you, then you can choose the other one to dissect. Either way, catalyst bolts are necessary to be visible.

Very related. I don't think we have an issue for it. But if you want this Catalyst DMR to show enemy health amount of bolts stuck in them, then all weapons should show enemy health. I just want consistency.

A. I was talking about AR bullets and them hitting random bullets all over the place B. I don't see how...that would lead to consistency.....We have to show bolts in order to make sure neither the shooter or the enemy has a disadvantage, of not understanding if they are going to one shot someone, or be one shotted. C. If you want to make health visible, you'll have to do so for ammo as well lmfao. And then be forced to show when someone reloads, even if they're not on your team or not. These stats are things which are kept private, because they keep other players from being able to overpower others, or learn stuff that nerfs a player. It's like a poker bluff face, you'll never know they were at 10% health, even after they clutch and kill you. You won't know that while they were running away, they also secretly reloaded their RPG, to then shoot again. Thus, I think health shouldn't be visible to enemies, but bolts should, because it is necessary for the enemy and the shooter.

How ironic, given how long i've been trying to explain to you how "amount of bolts stuck in player" is the same as "amount of health a player has"

Again, you're confusing my point with something completely different. I'm not even talking about this issue.

I didn't dismiss them. All of your words are about "omg what if enemy shoots rocks, then there will be fire everywhere!!1" My reply is a simple illustration showing that no, there won't be fire everywhere.

And my simple explanation was that P50 has the potential to spawn loads of fire, seeing its firerate and mag size, which is why it just wouldn't work, because you could simply just spam that shit and spawn fire everywhere, and that would result chaos that we can't possibly describe or discuss through text, because it can only be seen in actual gameplay.

The M1 is a 4 shot kill weapon. How does that compare???? Really?

No, the M1 isnt, it's 3 shot. But the Catalyst adds an extra reload shot, which I count as a fourth shot.

Like I don't understand how thats supposed to be the same as a meter. The 3 bolts tell you: "I can kill him now! I can reload!" A health meter tells you: "I'm at full health! I can take on this guy!"

And lets say for a minute, I do believe you. Sure homey, health and catalyst bolts are the same, why not. It still doesn't provide why health should be visible to enemies, and bolts shouldn't. Health would allow for enemies to predict how effective their attacks are, which would give them an unfair advantage over their opponent, to keep them from being able to defend, without letting their opponent gain the advantage of how weak they are, and whether they can overpower them or not. Catalyst however, needs to be visible, because it would be an unfair advantage if it wasn't. Like I stated above, for the enemy, it will be absurd to one shot them without them even knowing lmfao. For the shooter it would be crazy if they didn't even know if they could one-shot or not, and would lose the opportunity to act accordingly.

Now would be a good time to determine what an effective counter would be, btw, because I doubt standing still for 10 seconds would be a very good idea.

[deferred-impact]

Wow, lots of words, little substance.

B. I don't see how...that would lead to consistency.....We have to show bolts in order to make sure neither the shooter or the enemy has a disadvantage, of not understanding if they are going to one shot someone, or be one shotted.

We have to show health in order to make sure neither the shooter or the enemy has a disadvantage, of not understanding if they are going to one shot someone, or be one shotted.

These stats are things which are kept private, because they keep other players from being able to overpower others, or learn stuff that nerfs a player. It's like a poker bluff face, you'll never know they were at 10% health, even after they clutch and kill you.

Sure, this is not an unreasonable perspective. But it yet does not explain why Catalyst bolts are exempt from the poker bluffing aspect. Why do you get to know the amount of bolts stuck in an enemy, but not the amount of health they have???

You won't know that while they were running away, they also secretly reloaded their RPG, to then shoot again.

Ironically a terrible example, because it's really obvious when someone is reloading a Rocket

Thus, I think health shouldn't be visible to enemies, but bolts should, because it is necessary for the enemy and the shooter.

You say "thus" but the word fails to deliver. Where is the logical connection?

Again: everything you say about bolts, i can say about health. Everything you say about health, i can say about bolts. Thus, I think bolts should be visible to enemies, and health should too, because it is necessary for the enemy and the shooter.

Again, you're confusing my point with something completely different. I'm not even talking about this issue.

Oh i fully understood that you were talking about what i said in #211. But, you can't complain about my behavior in #211 and then yourself participate in the exact same behavior here. And i do have the right to point that out, even if it's "a separate issue".

No, the M1 isnt, it's 3 shot.

Hm. That is idiotic balancing, but i digress. I suppose i am wrong, yes, M1 is normally a 3 shot kill.

Point is, there are weapons in this game that take 4 shots to kill an enemy. Why are we treating Catalyst DMR any differently??

Like I don't understand how thats supposed to be the same as a meter. The 3 bolts tell you: "I can kill him now! I can reload!" A health meter tells you: "I'm at full health! I can take on this guy!"

Okay, so is your argument as follows, "if someone is one hit from dead with any normal weapon, nothing changes, you just keep firing. If someone is one hit from dead with Catalyst, you need to press different buttons to finish them off"?

It's certainly a more compelling argument than whatever you have been saying thus far.

Catalyst however, needs to be visible, because it would be an unfair advantage if it wasn't.

Unfair? Unfair why? How about you, the Catalyst user, learn to count your hits instead? All other sniper weapon users need to count their hits, so why shouldn't you? Perhaps it's part of the skill. Why should the game straight up tell you when an enemy has enough bolts, if instead it could be made into part of the challenge???

Like I stated above, for the enemy, it will be absurd to one shot them without them even knowing lmfao.

I'm not disputing the "i should know how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in me" part. That part is perfectly fine. I'm disputing the "i should know how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in the enemy" part.

For the shooter it would be crazy if they didn't even know if they could one-shot or not, and would lose the opportunity to act accordingly.

It would be crazy if they learned how to count to three.

Now would be a good time to determine what an effective counter would be, btw, because I doubt standing still for 10 seconds would be a very good idea.

Depending on how long the Catalyst reload is, it probably would be viable to kill it before it fires off the kill burst

[ghost]

Wow, lots of words, little substance.

Ironically, that's exactly what your response looks like.

We have to show health in order to make sure neither the shooter or the enemy has a disadvantage, of not understanding if they are going to one shot someone, or be one shotted.

You really don't. You can kill someone without knowing their health, because either way, you have to shoot, and you'll find out. I have a flint. I see random guy walking. I shoot him. He dies. Now I know his health was below 50% If he doesn't die, then he was above that percentage. It really doesn't change how much damage I have to deal to the person. However, what does matter, is that it keeps players from being targeted, and gives them a chance to escape and regen, which is the main reason it shouldn't be visible.

But it yet does not explain why Catalyst bolts are exempt from the poker bluffing aspect. Why do you get to know the amount of bolts stuck in an enemy, but not the amount of health they have???

A. I provided why health shouldn't be visible, read above. B. In the case of learning how many bolts are in an enemy, and their health, I'd rather know bolts because they one shot, regardless of health. C. And again, like I said, showing catalyst bolts is to keep an attacker from miscalculating when they need to reload to kill. However, that's not my priority, my main concern is making sure that someone shot with 3 bolts is able to see that they have 3 catalyst bolts in them.

Ironically a terrible example, because it's really obvious when someone is reloading a Rocket

You may imagine this with any other gun, if this one upsets you.

You say "thus" but the word fails to deliver. Where is the logical connection?

"These stats are things which are kept private, because they keep other players from being able to overpower others, or learn stuff that nerfs a player. It's like a poker bluff face, you'll never know they were at 10% health, even after they clutch and kill you. "

Again: everything you say about bolts, i can say about health. Everything you say about health, i can say about bolts. Thus, I think bolts should be visible to enemies, and health should too, because it is necessary for the enemy and the shooter.

I'll add a copyright to my examples then.

Oh i fully understood that you were talking about what i said in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/211.

If you know what I'm talking about, why be an idiot. You said this:

How ironic, given how long i've been trying to explain to you how "amount of bolts stuck in player" is the same as "amount of health a player has"

Hm. That is idiotic balancing, but i digress. I suppose i am wrong, yes, M1 is normally a 3 shot kill.

what??? Are you saying catalyst is idiotically balanced or the m1?

Point is, there are weapons in this game that take 4 shots to kill an enemy. Why are we treating Catalyst DMR any differently??

Which ones 4 shot again (besides catalyst)?

Okay, so is your argument as follows, "if someone is one hit from dead with any normal weapon, nothing changes, you just keep firing. If someone is one hit from dead with Catalyst, you need to press different buttons to finish them off"?

It's really not an argument, it's more of a question, which ponders how exactly a gun's 4 shot damage and health bar are precisely the same thing.

Unfair? Unfair why? How about you, the Catalyst user, learn to count your hits instead? All other sniper weapon users need to count their hits, so why shouldn't you? Perhaps it's part of the skill. Why should the game straight up tell you when an enemy has enough bolts, if instead it could be made into part of the challenge???

What about desync, is that part of the challenge too? How about off screen hits? Is that included as well?

I'm not disputing the "i should know how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in me" part. That part is perfectly fine. I'm disputing the "i should know how many Catalyst bolts are stuck in the enemy" part.

be specific then

Depending on how long the Catalyst reload is, it probably would be viable to kill it before it fires off the kill burst

Sure, but I honestly don't like the idea of standing still for any reason, because of how vulnerable it makes you. They could just easily pull out a secondary or explosive and kill you by surprise, instead of trying to reload their Catalyst DMR.

[deferred-impact]

I shoot him. He dies. Now I know his health was below 50% If he doesn't die, then he was above that percentage. It really doesn't change how much damage I have to deal to the person.

It changes how you will play against him

However, that's not my priority, my main concern is making sure that someone shot with 3 bolts is able to see that they have 3 catalyst bolts in them.

I'm not arguing against this

And again, like I said, showing catalyst bolts is to keep an attacker from miscalculating when they need to reload to kill.

Miscalculating is a skill issue

I'll add a copyright to my examples then.

???????????

Are you saying catalyst is idiotically balanced or the m1?

The M1, since it has the same shots to kill as the Light Sniper

Which ones 4 shot again (besides catalyst)?

Dude, really? You really gonna be that pedantic and force me to go through all the weapons to check which ones take 4 shots to kill? One of the pistols does, i'm sure. Falcon might, i'd need to check the stats

a question, which ponders how exactly a gun's 4 shot damage and health bar are precisely the same thing.

Both provide you with info of what you need to do to finish off an enemy

They could just easily pull out a secondary or explosive and kill you by surprise, instead of trying to reload their Catalyst DMR.

But they couldn't, because your health is full

[ghost]

It changes how you will play against him

How? Either way, my first shot tells me everything. I can kill him instantly, or I have to shoot again.

Miscalculating is a skill issue

Yeah, it's the Skill's issue.

The M1, since it has the same shots to kill as the Light Sniper

Make a new issue for that then, or add it to the list of copypasta guns (if you haven't already done so).

Dude, really? You really gonna be that pedantic and force me to go through all the weapons to check which ones take 4 shots to kill? One of the pistols does, i'm sure. Falcon might, i'd need to check the stats

Dude, im not being pedantic. I was genuinely curious which ones did, because I wasn't sure either, and couldn't be arsed to go check. You said there were guns, so I thought you knew. Idk about falcon, it used to, but after it being nerfed for the umpteenth billionth time, I can't be sure.

Okay, future yoyo here: I checked, and the only pistol with 4 shots is 1912.

Both provide you with info of what you need to do to finish off an enemy

You don't need a health bar to do that, your shots can tell. If you hit them once with a flint, then you know you need to hit them again, if they don't die. Seeing a health bar doesn't change the damage you need to do, but it just promotes targeting players with lower health. Me killing a dude with my HS in two shots, doesn't change when I can see his healthbar. It's obvious I need to hit them again, when he doesn't die. The information of how many shots a weapon takes to kill can help eliminate the need for making health visible.

But they couldn't, because your health is full

Dude it takes like 3 seconds to kill someone with a deagle. You could even just cook a nade or shoot them with an rpg lmfao. Or, they could even have overkill and could use a spam gun or anything to kill them by surprise.

[deferred-impact]

You don't need a health bar to do that, your shots can tell. If you hit them once with a flint, then you know you need to hit them again, if they don't die.

You don't need a Catalyst bar to do that, your shots can tell. If you hit them three times with a Catalyst DMR, then you know you need to reload

Seeing a health bar doesn't change the damage you need to do, but it just promotes targeting players with lower health.

It changes how you play though, you yourself admit it. It's valuable information

The information of how many shots a weapon takes to kill can help eliminate the need for making health visible.

The DMR always takes 3 shots to kill (+ reload). How the hell does this not eliminate the need to see how many bolts are stuck in the enemy??

Dude it takes like 3 seconds to kill someone with a deagle. You could even just cook a nade or shoot them with an rpg lmfao. Or, they could even have overkill and could use a spam gun or anything to kill them by surprise.

Yes but they have full health (since you were shooting them with Catalyst DMR, which doesn't deal direct damage) and you only have some of your health (since they were shooting you with a normal weapon). So if you switch away from Catalyst you are at a disadvantage

[ghost]

You don't need a Catalyst bar to do that, your shots can tell. If you hit them three times with a Catalyst DMR, then you know you need to reload

"Catalyst bar"

Again, my main point exists. Desync. What if you don't hit that third shot, and you reload not knowing? Is interpolation their fault? What if they hit a shot offscreen?

It's valuable information

At the expense of nerfing a player, yes.

The DMR always takes 3 shots to kill (+ reload). How the hell does this not eliminate the need to see how many bolts are stuck in the enemy??

And what if you can't be sure if every shot hits in the first place? Again, dude, off screen shots, or desync. Either of the two can cause a miscalculation, which isn't the players fault.

Yes but they have full health (since you were shooting them with Catalyst DMR, which doesn't deal direct damage) and you only have some of your health (since they were shooting you with a normal weapon). So if you switch away from Catalyst you are at a disadvantage

No, you are not. I hit them with 3 catalysts, they stand still. Now, I have the ball in my court. I could hide behind a roof, or wall, while they wait for their bolts to dislodge, and promptly cook a grenade, or just spam their secondary. Like I said, it would be way too unexpected, and the chance of killing the still person would be much more higher than dying to them.

[ghost]

Also I think we can remove discussion needed from this issue.

[deferred-impact]

Again, my main point exists. Desync. What if you don't hit that third shot, and you reload not knowing? Is interpolation their fault? What if they hit a shot offscreen?

Bro you cannot be serious... your own words in #225:

dude, you like, love making things sound like they happen way more often than they really do lmfao

On average, desync happens like, 1/200 bullets fired, and that too, if the bullet is nearly at the end of its range, which means in 9/10 cases, you will hit the shot.

And now you're arguing from a position that desync is a problem and we need to address it?

????????????????

At the expense of nerfing a player, yes.

Being able to see the enemy's stuck Catalyst bolts nerfs the enemy the same way as being able to see the enemy's health.

And what if you can't be sure if every shot hits in the first place? Again, dude, off screen shots, or desync. Either of the two can cause a miscalculation, which isn't the players fault.

Offscreen shots and desync happen with normal weapons as well. What if i shoot my HeavySniper and hit the enemy offscreen but am not informed of it, and because of that choose not to pursue them to finish them off?

I hit them with 3 catalysts, they stand still. Now, I have the ball in my court. I could hide behind a roof, or wall, while they wait for their bolts to dislodge, and promptly cook a grenade, or just spam their secondary. Like I said, it would be way too unexpected, and the chance of killing the still person would be much more higher than dying to them.

They're not gonna stand still in the middle of nowhere and no matter what, lmao. They'll react according to how you play. If they are in the open they will seek cover while also firing back at you. If you try to cook a grenade they may very well rush you.

And again, they are at full health, you are not.

Also I think we can remove discussion needed from this issue.

????????????

Yoyo, i need you to behave, or i will fucking ban you from this board. 2 infractions:

• dismissing desync in #225 and now bringing it up as a concern
• removing the "discussion needed" label when we are literally in the middle of the discussion

[ghost]

Bro you cannot be serious... your own words in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/225:

What, that desync was not an issue? No, that wasn't my main argument, it was that nades had a higher priority. Also my point was based on keeping HS into consideration, not M1. In addition, I was talking about off screen shots, if desync would occur in combination with it, not when the bullets are in your view.

And now you're arguing from a position that desync is a problem and we need to address it?

yes, because HS, and M1 are different, as well as how desync in your view is different from it not being in your view.

Being able to see the enemy's stuck Catalyst bolts nerfs the enemy the same way as being able to see the enemy's health.

Depending on the situation, if desync hits.

Offscreen shots and desync happen with normal weapons as well. What if i shoot my HeavySniper and hit the enemy offscreen but am not informed of it, and because of that choose not to pursue them to finish them off?

Well then don't pursue them. The fact that you hit them offscreen is already unfair, since they couldn't even see you, and neither could you see them. And if you were so worried about finishing off a random unfair kill, that you don't even have an idea about, then you'd try to see them before you tried to kill them in the first place.

They're not gonna stand still in the middle of nowhere and no matter what, lmao. They'll react according to how you play. If they are in the open they will seek cover

They see for cover while I prompty reload, and by the time they do stand still, my reloading will finish.

also firing back at you. If you try to cook a grenade they may very well rush you.

What if they don't even see me cooking a nade? What if: I'm shooting them, they are shooting at me, while I am constantly trying to escape. I am using Catalyst, so I hit them with 3 shots, and they realize that. I run away to reload under a roof (or i could just start immediately while moving) And now they stand still, to dislodge, while I have multiple weapons to aid me in killing this person, in this situation. The whole point is, I can keep my enemy in a very bad and unfair position, where I can choose to reload, or not reload and attack them with any other weapon. They have to debate whether they should stand still, or try to hunt me down, hoping I haven't started to reload yet.

Yoyo, i need you to behave, or i will fucking ban you from this board.

My apologies.

dismissing desync in https://github.com/deferred-impact/battledudes-issue-tracker/issues/225 and now bringing it up as a concern

Alright. If that upsets you, I shall switch to a different argument.

removing the "discussion needed" label when we are literally in the middle of the discussion

Wasn't discussion needed for issues that were dead, and no one talked about? I thought it wasn't needed for this one because we had a discussion going for it. Either way, I apologize, won't tamper with lables again.

[deferred-impact]

No, that wasn't my main argument, it was that nades had a higher priority.

But it was an argument that you used. You either think desync is a problem or you don't. Choose a viewpoint and stick with it.

Also my point was based on keeping HS into consideration, not M1.

HS suffers more from desync than the M1

The fact that you hit them offscreen is already unfair, since they couldn't even see you, and neither could you see them. And if you were so worried about finishing off a random unfair kill,

First, allow me to point out that i am explicitly against offscreen attacks. I believe all bullets should disappear the moment they reach the edge of the screen, and i believe Eagle Eye and look ahead should be deleted.

With that said, why do you assume that was an unfair kill? Perhaps we were fighting for a while, hopping in and out of each other's view, until it just so happened that i hit the enemy while they were off my screen for just a moment. Does that make it unfair? Why?

They see for cover while I prompty reload, and by the time they do stand still, my reloading will finish.

By the time you reload, they may well have peppered you with bullets and reduced your health to -156

And now they stand still, to dislodge, while I have multiple weapons to aid me in killing this person, in this situation.

Dude, they're not gonna fucking stand there, they'll act according to the situation

The whole point is, I can keep my enemy in a very bad and unfair position, where I can choose to reload, or not reload and attack them with any other weapon. They have to debate whether they should stand still, or try to hunt me down, hoping I haven't started to reload yet.

That... sounds like fun and engaging gameplay for both parties..?

Wasn't discussion needed for issues that were dead, and no one talked about?

Well until we actually agree on stuff we can't just end the discussion halfway through

[ghost]

First, allow me to point out that i am explicitly against offscreen attacks. I believe all bullets should disappear the moment they reach the edge of the screen, and i believe Eagle Eye and look ahead should be deleted.

Why worry about an offscreen kill so much then?

With that said, why do you assume that was an unfair kill? Perhaps we were fighting for a while, hopping in and out of each other's view, until it just so happened that i hit the enemy while they were off my screen for just a moment. Does that make it unfair? Why?

A. You didn't get the kill, you just hit them once. B. Offscreen shots are unfair shots that are stupid, its a no scope with no actual direct aim, damaging someone to make them weak. Not realizing about it, is an effective counter to that, which is fair, if you do not know about it. However, I think Catalyst is an exception to this because it deals no direct damage. And even then, I don't think you would be able to tell if they have been hit by 3 shots, because they would need to be on your screen, for you to see if they are stuck with 3 bolts (Seeing that you are able to see whether if your enemy is hit by 3 catalyst or not, would be represented by them glowing, or some other feature.).

By the time you reload, they may well have peppered you with bullets and reduced your health to -156

I can reload while dodging and running. As they try to hunt me down, i reload, and they die.

Dude, they're not gonna fucking stand there, they'll act according to the situation

The situation, as I explained, is a fucking unfair deadlock.

That... sounds like fun and engaging gameplay for both parties..?

It's also an unfair deadlock for an enemy, forcing them to debate whether to move or not...?

Well until we actually agree on stuff we can't just end the discussion halfway through

Basically forever then.

[deferred-impact]

Why worry about an offscreen kill so much then?

Huh? Whuh? You're the one worrying about offscreen kills "so much" and complaining about them being unfair, you're the one who brought up this topic

A. You didn't get the kill, you just hit them once.

The question was why is it unfair, and this does not answer the question

Offscreen shots are unfair shots that are stupid, its a no scope with no actual direct aim, damaging someone to make them weak. Not realizing about it, is an effective counter to that, which is fair, if you do not know about it.

Is this English..? What?

And even then, I don't think you would be able to tell if they have been hit by 3 shots, because they would need to be on your screen, for you to see if they are stuck with 3 bolts

For the 50th time, if you think offscreen Catalyst shots should have a healthbar, i think all weapon offscreen shots should have a healthbar. The logic is exactly the same, i still don't get why Catalyst DMR should get unique treatment here.

I can reload while dodging and running. As they try to hunt me down, i reload, and they die.

Maybe they die, maybe you die. That depends heavily on how Catalyst DMR is balanced (the reload time, mainly) and how well you dodge enemy fire, and also on the cover availability. (Need i remind you that while you're reloading the Catalyst DMR, your opponent will gladly slam a C4 in your face and instantly delete you?)

The situation, as I explained, is a fucking unfair deadlock.

I fail to see how it is unfair (you hit them 3 times and then finished a long reload = you deserve the kill), and i fail to see how it is a deadlock (both players are encouraged to kill each other as soon as possible)

It's also an unfair deadlock for an enemy, forcing them to debate whether to move or not...?

Should we delete health completely, then? Debating whether to move or not is a major point of this game, lmao. You having 3 Cata bolts stuck in you is equivalent to you being at 1 HP. The only difference is how the regen works - with ordinary health it kicks in no matter what you do, with Cata you need to stand still for some time

[ghost]

Huh? Whuh? You're the one worrying about offscreen kills "so much" and complaining about them being unfair, you're the one who brought up this topic

You're the one who decided to somehow relate this to a random HS kill that you didn't get, while I was talking about catalyst shots that could possibly be hit, and would force you to miscalculate further into the gameplay. If you randomly hit someone offscreen with an HS, they can come back, healed. After hitting someone with a catalyst bolt, they could possibly come to fight you in the future, without their bullet being dislodged.

Is this English..? What?

If you don't understand, just ask me to elaborate smh

For the 50th time, if you think offscreen Catalyst shots should have a healthbar, i think all weapon offscreen shots should have a healthbar. The logic is exactly the same, i still don't get why Catalyst DMR should get unique treatment here.

I wasn't saying they should have a healthbar. I was thinking to propose the idea of a player glowing, when they are hit with 3 bolts.

Maybe they die, maybe you die. That depends heavily on how Catalyst DMR is balanced (the reload time, mainly) and how well you dodge enemy fire, and also on the cover availability.

Well then set stats for the weapon, unless you wanna keep on debating on something that isn't even confirmed.

(Need i remind you that while you're reloading the Catalyst DMR, your opponent will gladly slam a C4 in your face and instantly delete you?)

Need I remind you, that while he cooks a c4, I'll be long away from their sight, since holding a c4 slows you down., and has less throwing range Ironically, that's the worst explosive/throwable for killing someone who is running away.

I fail to see how it is unfair (you hit them 3 times and then finished a long reload = you deserve the kill), and i fail to see how it is a deadlock (both players are encouraged to kill each other as soon as possible)

I have a catalyst. You have a SMG. We fight, and I hit you with 3 shots. You realize this, and now you understand, that you desperately need cover, because I can reload, and once it starts, it will be too long before you can stand still for a while. Thus, now you have a choice, in which either way you will have a very low chance of winning.

A. You try to chase me: I'm already off, reloading, and dodging, and running away. And since you're not standing still, I can reload and kill you once I'm done.

B. If you choose to find cover inside a building quickly, and stand still, then I can use other weapons. I can throw a nade, and one shot you, switch to my deagle and kill you. Why can't you defend so easily? Because I could be hiding under a roof, or out of your range, and catch you by surprise, and overpower you.

C. I could be running away, reloading, and you would be standing still. An enemy (my teammate) comes out of nowhere (or it could be my enemy as well, we could be playing FFA), and attacks you. Now what? You gonna stand still to protect from my catalyst, or try to survive the enemy shooting you?

My point is, you have a low chance of countering a catalyst, which makes it unfair.

Should we delete health completely, then?

What?

You ask an idiotic question, then answer it yourself:

with ordinary health it kicks in no matter what you do, with Cata you need to stand still for some time

Yes, catalyst is hard to dislodge, is what I interpret from your response.

Debating whether to move or not is a major point of this game, lmao. You having 3 Cata bolts stuck in you is equivalent to you being at 1 HP.

Which is why you should have a better way to counter the bolts, since its basically at being 1 health. That's my point.

[deferred-impact]

If you randomly hit someone offscreen with an HS, they can come back, healed. After hitting someone with a catalyst bolt, they could possibly come to fight you in the future, without their bullet being dislodged.

What??????

If the enemy who got hit by the HS, can "come back healed"

why can't the enemy who got hit by Cata, "come back dislodged"?!

I wasn't saying they should have a healthbar. I was thinking to propose the idea of a player glowing, when they are hit with 3 bolts.

It's not about how it's displayed, it's about what information it offers. If players glow when they are "ready" for the final Cata blow, then players should probably also glow when they are "ready" for the final blow for any other weapon. If i am carrying around a HeavySniper, make all enemies who have 30 or less health, glow.

Well then set stats for the weapon, unless you wanna keep on debating on something that isn't even confirmed.

I think the stats should be the output of this debate, not the input.

Need I remind you, that while he cooks a c4, I'll be long away from their sight, since holding a c4 slows you down., and has less throwing range Ironically, that's the worst explosive/throwable for killing someone who is running away.

If you run away, so will he. You need line of sight to kill him, if he runs away he'll find cover and dislodge

A. You try to chase me: I'm already off, reloading, and dodging, and running away. And since you're not standing still, I can reload and kill you once I'm done.

B. If you choose to find cover inside a building quickly, and stand still, then I can use other weapons. I can throw a nade, and one shot you, switch to my deagle and kill you. Why can't you defend so easily? Because I could be hiding under a roof, or out of your range, and catch you by surprise, and overpower you.

You are conveniently ignoring the important point: by the time you hit 3 Cata shots, you have 20 HP, i have full 52 HP. I have a rather massive advantage in the context of conventional firearms, and have a very decent chance of killing you.

C. I could be running away, reloading, and you would be standing still. An enemy (my teammate) comes out of nowhere (or it could be my enemy as well, we could be playing FFA), and attacks you. Now what? You gonna stand still to protect from my catalyst, or try to survive the enemy shooting you?

Finally, a somewhat compelling point from you! Yes, i will concede, in the 2v1 context, Catalyst could be quite powerful. Though even then, you have to recognize that it's a weapon that works with a completely separate damage channel. I would rather run into a Cata and an SMG, than run into two SMGs: the latter combo can combine their damage, whereas the former cannot.

My point is, you have a low chance of countering a catalyst, which makes it unfair.

Well then fucking nerf the gun until it is no longer unfair! Is the concept of balancing weapons foreign to you?

Yes, catalyst is hard to dislodge, is what I interpret from your response.

Cata "damage" (i.e. stuck bolts) is harder to regenerate than normal damage, at least as it has been described so far. If that is the factor you consider to be OP, we can discuss other ways bolts could be dislodged.

Which is why you should have a better way to counter the bolts, since its basically at being 1 health.

The primary way for countering the bolts is by obliterating the enemy who put them there, i think.

I still don't get why you consider this weapon OP. All it is is a weapon that is harder to run away from. If the reload is long enough (~2 seconds), it would have much longer (= worse) TTK than other weapons, so what's the big deal?

In other words, you are crying so much about getting hit by 3 Cata shots and then being deleted 2 seconds later, whilst already in the game, an SMG can delete you in half a second

[ghost]

why can't the enemy who got hit by Cata, "come back dislodged"?!

A. Because standing still for 10 seconds is not something anyone will prefer B. Its only one shot, so they most likely won't care C. Their fight could be much sooner than they would like, they may be forced to engage in combat, while they try to dislodge.

It's not about how it's displayed, it's about what information it offers. If players glow when they are "ready" for the final Cata blow, then players should probably also glow when they are "ready" for the final blow for any other weapon. If i am carrying around a HeavySniper, make all enemies who have 30 or less health, glow.

Huge difference. Catalyst requires 3 shots to kill, and since it doesn't do direct damage, it can't kill unless you reload. You need to make sure that they are hit with 3 bolts first, unlike any other weapon, where you can damage them, and understand how many shots you need to hit them with again. Someone who is hit with a catalyst, takes no direct damage, which means you have no way to determine the amount of bolts stuck in them, simply by knowing the amount of shots it takes for catalyst to shoot. HS on the other hand, can give you all the info you need in its first shot. if they die, then congrats. if they don't, then hit them again.

I think the stats should be the output of this debate, not the input.

I think it should be the input, because having a predetermined set of stats, will guide the debate better, and allow us to not have to guess about the reload time, and counter, and other stats.

You need line of sight to kill him,

I may or may not have forgotten that detail. Either way though, you could still keep them in your line of sight, and dodge them with cover.

You are conveniently ignoring the important point: by the time you hit 3 Cata shots, you have 20 HP, i have full 52 HP. I have a rather massive advantage in the context of conventional firearms, and have a very decent chance of killing you.

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that I have two different methods of one shotting you, either with an explosive, or just reloading.

Finally, a somewhat compelling point from you!

You choosing to not understand my other, just as valid points, is not my problem, and nor does it make the other arguments any less stronger.

I would rather run into a Cata and an SMG, than run into two SMGs: the latter combo can combine their damage, whereas the former cannot.

It really doesn't matter. In the former you either die to the cata one shot, or die to the SMG. The latter, you die to two SMG's spamming at you. The difference is that you have a chance at dodging them and maybe surviving the double SMG's, though that chance is low seeing that double the damage is not easy to survive.

Well then fucking nerf the gun until it is no longer unfair! Is the concept of balancing weapons foreign to you?

What the...fuck???

I am resisting the strong urge to say certain words right now.

Homey, you do realize, this entire time, I have been suggesting a method to nerf the catalyst by suggesting a better counter, whereas you have been suggesting against it? And you say to me: "Is the concept of balancing weapons foreign to you?" I've been trying to convince you to nerf the gun for the entirety of this debate, and you ask me if I'm scared to nerf the gun?

we can discuss other ways bolts could be dislodged.

????????????????

I beg your pardon sir, What the fuck you think I've been trying to do right now? What exactly did you think when I said:

Now would be a good time to determine what an effective counter would be, btw, because I doubt standing still for 10 seconds would be a very good idea.

moron

[deferred-impact]

A. Because standing still for 10 seconds is not something anyone will prefer

Sure, that's fair enough. Standing around is indeed boring. Perhaps "10 seconds without shooting" or "10 seconds with melee in hand" would be a better condition for dislodging bolts.

which means you have no way to determine the amount of bolts stuck in them, simply by knowing the amount of shots it takes for catalyst to shoot.

They can learn to count shots like every other player does when using every other weapon

I may or may not have forgotten that detail. Either way though, you could still keep them in your line of sight, and dodge them with cover.

It's a very crucial detail. Obviously if simply seeing them on the screen was enough, the gun would be busted as hell. With line of sight, it's rather balanced, i think.

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that I have two different methods of one shotting you, either with an explosive, or just reloading.

Explosives take time (grenades) or can be countered (C4 = just stay at range 4head). Reloading inherently takes time. And i have access to explosives as well, lmao.

You choosing to not understand my other, just as valid points, is not my problem, and nor does it make the other arguments any less stronger.

Indeed, it doesn't make your arguments any less strong. Your "Cata bolts on enemies should be shown but ordinary damage on enemies should remain hidden" point is already as weak as it can possibly get.

It really doesn't matter. In the former you either die to the cata one shot, or die to the SMG. The latter, you die to two SMG's spamming at you.

Well, it does matter, though, because 2v1 is a very winnable scenario, it's far from decided. And especially if one of the enemies is Cata, there's a very high chance of defeating both. The entire issue is that they cannot conveniently combine their damage output, they are working within separate "damage channels"

The difference is that you have a chance at dodging them and maybe surviving the double SMG's, though that chance is low seeing that double the damage is not easy to survive.

Dodging Cata + SMG is easier than dodging SMG + SMG

Homey, you do realize, this entire time, I have been suggesting a method to nerf the catalyst by suggesting a better counter, whereas you have been suggesting against it? And you say to me: "Is the concept of balancing weapons foreign to you?" I've been trying to convince you to nerf the gun for the entirety of this debate, and you ask me if I'm scared to nerf the gun?

Were you? Were you really? Because i really didn't get that feel. So far it's been constant whining about how Cata is OP as fuck, and zero actual input on how to make it more balanced. Go ahead, prove me wrong: show me where you gave an actual suggestion on how the gun should behave.

On the contrary, i have multiple times stated that the reload time is up to balancing. And i still think the concerns you raise are certainly valid in some balancing propositions, but not all. Say if the Cata had a 5 second reload, all your whining becomes fucking pointless and silly.

Furthermore:

I think the stats should be the output of this debate, not the input. I think it should be the input, because having a predetermined set of stats, will guide the debate better, and allow us to not have to guess about the reload time, and counter, and other stats.

You literally admit you do not want to discuss how to balance this gun, lmao. If the goal is to nerf this gun, then the stats should be the output of this discussion. If the goal is to whine about silly hypothetical scenarios built upon a ton of assumptions, then sure, the stats can be the input.

I beg your pardon sir, What the fuck you think I've been trying to do right now? What exactly did you think when I said:

Now would be a good time to determine what an effective counter would be, btw, because I doubt standing still for 10 seconds would be a very good idea.

Okay, cute. You did seem to be interested in discussing balance at some point. You know what you did wrong there? You went on to provide the most contrived, bullshit scenarios to support your case. "What if the enemy hits me with 3 bolts" just hide behind cover, stand still and dislodge. "But what if the enemy rushes me", you just shoot them and kill them. "No you don't understand, they can switch to their other weapon and kill me!" no they cannot, because you have more health than them. "No no no, what if they throw an explosive at me!!!" explosives can be countered, and you can also throw explosives at them. None of your hypothetical scenarios were even remotely valid complaints.

You know what was a valid complaint? That standing still is fucking boring. There we go. Crystal clear and undeniable. As i stated above, let's consider two other options:

• not shooting for 10 seconds clears the bolts
• using melee for 10 seconds clears the bolts

[ghost]

Oh nice, you responded.

[deferred-impact]

Damn, github is a realtime chat now

[deferred-impact]

Also, when the fuck did this discussion sway away from "enemy healthbar vs enemy Catalyst bolts counter" and into "this gun is OP as hell but i won't give suggestions on how to balance it better"?

[ghost]

Sure, that's fair enough. Standing around is indeed boring. Perhaps "10 seconds without shooting" or "10 seconds with melee in hand" would be a better condition for dislodging bolts.

10 seconds without melee would be too simple, so I will agree with 10 seconds without shooting. Additionally, you could choose a 10 second requirement for moving in a specific direction only. (Only hold right, or only hold down, or up, etc.)

They can learn to count shots like every other player does when using every other weapon

Every other weapon? So you count the amount of AR or SMG shots you hit someone with? That's wild.

Explosives take time (grenades) or can be countered (C4 = just stay at range 4head). Reloading inherently takes time. And i have access to explosives as well, lmao.

A. Countered? How exactly? If I was to throw a nade, well cooked at you, how do you "counter" that, without either dying or moving?

B. You cannot say that reloading takes much more time than cooking a nade because:

1. That is not long enough, nades cook fast.
2. You haven't even determined a reload time, so theres nothing to compare with nade time (why I prefer for data to be the input)

C. You have access for sure, but you need me to be in your line of sight, without moving. Besides, I can shoot you while you try to cook, whereas you can't kill me when I cook, because I can move, while you can't (unless you want to keep those bolts, of course.)

Indeed, it doesn't make your arguments any less strong. Your "Cata bolts on enemies should be shown but ordinary damage on enemies should remain hidden" point is already as weak as it can possibly get.

fax brother, spit your shit indeed.

And especially if one of the enemies is Cata, there's a very high chance of defeating both. The entire issue is that they cannot conveniently combine their damage output, they are working within separate "damage channels"

Working with different damage channels is exactly what makes it harder. You can't avoid damage from one channel, without taking damage from the other one. If you try to escape the SMG, you get one shotted by the cata, and if you stay still for the cata, then you die to the SMG. Two same damage channels would be easier, because you need to perform the same act, to dodge both. If I face two SMG's then atleast I don't need to worry about different things per different channel, I just need to avoid and dodge their bullets.

Were you? Were you really? Because i really didn't get that feel. So far it's been constant whining about how Cata is OP as fuck, and zero actual input on how to make it more balanced. Go ahead, prove me wrong: show me where you gave an actual suggestion on how the gun should behave.

Say if the Cata had a 5 second reload, all your whining becomes fucking pointless and silly.

Then do it. If you have the power to balance, and eliminate my complaints, then do it. The sole purpose of them, is to get you to understand that what you are suggesting isn't the best. This is exactly why I want the stats to be the input, and not the output, simply because then we don't have anything to work with, and to eliminate concerns that don't need to be here. If you can make the reload longer than the amount of time required to dislodge, then yes, I will shut up about the counter method.

"What if the enemy hits me with 3 bolts" just hide behind cover, stand still and dislodge.

No one is going to stand still for 10 whole seconds, and make them vulnerable.

"But what if the enemy rushes me", you just shoot them and kill them.

And if they throw an explosive?

"No you don't understand, they can switch to their other weapon and kill me!" no they cannot, because you have more health than them.

I am also standing still, possibly unaware, and vulnerable lmfao

explosives can be countered, and you can also throw explosives at them.

Countered? With what, trophy? What if I don't have a trophy, just like the average 70% of bd players who aren't playing hardpoint, payload, or control point? By the time you react to place one down, the explosive will have detonated.

You know what was a valid complaint? That standing still is fucking boring.

The only one you didn't have shit to spit for

not shooting for 10 seconds clears the bolts using melee for 10 seconds clears the bolts

Not shooting is best.

Also, when the fuck did this discussion sway away from "enemy healthbar vs enemy Catalyst bolts counter" and into "this gun is OP as hell but i won't give suggestions on how to balance it better"?

idk, and idc, unless github gave xp for talking.

[ghost]

Damn, github is a realtime chat now

I happened to be on my break when you posted it.

[deferred-impact]

10 seconds without melee would be too simple,

Read, please. 10 seconds holding melee. That's not particularly simple.

Additionally, you could choose a 10 second requirement for moving in a specific direction only. (Only hold right, or only hold down, or up, etc.)

Ew, no, ugly asymmetry.

Every other weapon? So you count the amount of AR or SMG shots you hit someone with?

Well, okay, you pedantic fuck. Obviously ARs and SMGs don't require counting of shots. But many weapons do. All snipers (including secondaries such as Flint, CBow, Rev), the Deagle, and the shotguns

A. Countered? How exactly? If I was to throw a nade, well cooked at you, how do you "counter" that, without either dying or moving?

Why is moving banned? Lmao. I would move.

Oh, "because you must stand still to dislodge Cata bolts". No, if a grenade is about to be thrown at me, dodging the grenade is my primary priority. My next priority will be going directly at you and firing everything i have at you. (Which, given that i'm at full health, and you are not, is a rather massive advantage for me)

B. You cannot say that reloading takes much more time than cooking a nade because: That is not long enough, nades cook fast. You haven't even determined a reload time, so theres nothing to compare with nade time (why I prefer for data to be the input)

I... didn't say reloading takes "much more" time...

You have access for sure, but you need me to be in your line of sight, without moving. Besides, I can shoot you while you try to cook, whereas you can't kill me when I cook, because I can move, while you can't (unless you want to keep those bolts, of course.)

??????? I'm not glued in place while there are 3 bolts in me, lmao, if you challenge me to an explosive duel then i'll just accept the challenge, kill you, and then deal with the bolts

Working with different damage channels is exactly what makes it harder.

I continue to be amazed by the levels of idiocy you manage to reach.

You can't avoid damage from one channel, without taking damage from the other one. If you try to escape the SMG, you get one shotted by the cata, and if you stay still for the cata, then you die to the SMG.

Cata + SMG is literally longer time-to-kill than SMG + SMG, dude, what the FUCK are you talking about???

Two same damage channels would be easier, because you need to perform the same act, to dodge both.

Bro, the act of dodging Cata is moving side to side. The act of dodging an SMG is moving side to side. They are both ordinary guns at the end of the day, the only difference is in what happens after you get hit. If you don't get hit then it doesn't matter

If I face two SMG's then atleast I don't need to worry about different things per different channel

No, you won't have time to worry, because you'll be obliterated by the stacked damage of two weapons. Something that the Cata + SMG scenario does not have

I just need to avoid and dodge their bullets.

Is literally true in both scenarios.

Were you? Were you really? Because i really didn't get that feel. So far it's been constant whining about how Cata is OP as fuck, and zero actual input on how to make it more balanced. Go ahead, prove me wrong: show me where you gave an actual suggestion on how the gun should behave. As a counter, I would recommend allowing players to dislodge bullets by standing still for only 5 seconds Hm, removing all stuck bolts from you upon killing someone sounds rather interesting.

Yeah, it seems at the beginning of this convo we were both interested in discussing actual balance, instead of having you come up with nonsensical complaints about hypothetical scenarios and me having to say how you're wrong over and over!

Then do it. If you have the power to balance, and eliminate my complaints, then do it.

I have as much power to balance as you do

The sole purpose of them, is to get you to understand that what you are suggesting isn't the best. This is exactly why I want the stats to be the input, and not the output, simply because then we don't have anything to work with, and to eliminate concerns that don't need to be here.

My question is, how the fuck are you having these concerns when you literally don't even know the reload time of the weapon..?

If you can make the reload longer than the amount of time required to dislodge, then yes, I will shut up about the counter method.

Why would it be longer, lmao wtf. If it's longer than the time required to dislodge, it's trivial to write a script that would auto-dislodge bolts

No one is going to stand still for 10 whole seconds, and make them vulnerable.

Vulnerable to what??? Again, they're not glued to the ground, if you try to shoot them with another weapon, they'll just dodge

I am also standing still, possibly unaware, and vulnerable lmfao

Unaware? Skill issue.

Countered? With what, trophy? What if I don't have a trophy, just like the average 70% of bd players who aren't playing hardpoint, payload, or control point? By the time you react to place one down, the explosive will have detonated.

Trophy, wall, or, y'know, the best and most versatile counter of them all... dodging

The only one you didn't have shit to spit for

Yes, because it's the only one that's valid and not grounded in complete and utterly obvious nonsense

idk, and idc, unless github gave xp for talking.

average g*mer grind mindset

[ghost]

Read, please. 10 seconds holding melee. That's not particularly simple.

Yeah, something to do with melee or whatever. I think it's pretty simple, you just have your melee out I assume? Or do you mean continuously attacking with it for 10 seconds?

My next priority will be going directly at you and firing everything i have at you. (Which, given that i'm at full health, and you are not, is a rather massive advantage for me)

My next priority would be to dodge for and run away for a couple more seconds, until my regen kicks in (if it hasn't already this entire time). Then I may challenge you with whatever I want, whether it be a nade, or cata, or just my secondary.

I... didn't say reloading takes "much more" time...

You said:

Reloading inherently takes time.

Quite similar.

I'm not glued in place while there are 3 bolts in me, lmao, if you challenge me to an explosive duel then i'll just accept the challenge, kill you, and then deal with the bolts

You switch to nades, while I switch to cata to reload. Whatever you use, I can use the opposite. You run around trying to cook and throw a nade at me, while i run away and reload. You stand still, and I throw nades.

Cata + SMG is literally longer time-to-kill than SMG + SMG, dude, what the FUCK are you talking about???

How the fuck does time compare to your survival chances? Sure, shit takes time, but essentially it is inevitable. Two SMG's can kill you faster, yeah. It isn't 100% guaranteed to kill you, though, you have a chance of dodging, and defending against both SMG's, if you can react fast enough.

Against a cata, whether you die fast enough, you have much more higher chances of dying because you can't defend aganst the cata and the SMG at the same time.

I never said Cata + SMG is a better method, or is superior to double SMG's, my point stated that Cata and SMG combo is just as deadly, if not more.

Bro, the act of dodging Cata is moving side to side. The act of dodging an SMG is moving side to side. They are both ordinary guns at the end of the day, the only difference is in what happens after you get hit. If you don't get hit then it doesn't matter

Read, Mf, Read. I am talking about a Cata reload, combined with an SMG attacking you, vs two smgs. I wasn't talking about dodging cata and SMG bullets.

No, you won't have time to worry, because you'll be obliterated by the stacked damage of two weapons. Something that the Cata + SMG scenario does not have

Why would i care about combined dmg, when one of them can just one shot me If I can react fast enough, I can run away from the double SMGs. I am stuck in a deadlock if a cata is about to reload, and an SMG is attacking me.

Yeah, it seems at the beginning of this convo we were both interested in discussing actual balance, instead of having you come up with nonsensical complaints about hypothetical scenarios and me having to say how you're wrong over and over!

Yeah, and you felt the need to bring your stupid little "No1!! Why isn't health visible then! !1!!1grrrr"

My question is, how the fuck are you having these concerns when you literally don't even know the reload time of the weapon..?

🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️

That's why I want it to be the input, so that we have information about stats before we even debate about them.

Why would it be longer, lmao wtf.

So that you have a better chance to dislodge, before they reload

it's trivial to write a script that would auto-dislodge bolts

huh

Vulnerable to what??? Again, they're not glued to the ground, if you try to shoot them with another weapon, they'll just dodge

Vulnerable to bullets you idiot, or anything that deals damage from a range.

I stand still to dislodge Enemy attack Now I move, and my dislodge time is reset They reload I am too slow to dislodge I die Me sad

Unaware? Skill issue.

Ah yes, it must be my fault that roofs exist.

Trophy, wall, or, y'know, the best and most versatile counter of them all... dodging

At the expense of losing your dislodge time, yes.

average g*mer grind mindset

sigma grindset

[deferred-impact]

I think it's pretty simple, you just have your melee out I assume?

I mean melee is not a very powerful weapon, given the range, so it's not simple during combat. Outside of combat it would be easy, yes.

My next priority would be to dodge for and run away for a couple more seconds, until my regen kicks in (if it hasn't already this entire time). Then I may challenge you with whatever I want, whether it be a nade, or cata, or just my secondary.

By the time you run away, regen, and come back, i have dislodged the bolts, so what's your point?

I... didn't say reloading takes "much more" time...

You said:

Reloading inherently takes time.

Quite similar.

How the absolute hell is that similar?????

You switch to nades, while I switch to cata to reload. Whatever you use, I can use the opposite. You run around trying to cook and throw a nade at me, while i run away and reload. You stand still, and I throw nades.

Neither player has an explicit advantage here. If you "run away and reload", i will also run away and hide behind cover, blocking your reload. If i see you cook a grenade, i will stop standing still. What is your point?

How the fuck does time compare to your survival chances?

Bro has yet to learn the idea of "damage per second" lmao

Against a cata, whether you die fast enough, you have much more higher chances of dying because you can't defend aganst the cata and the SMG at the same time.

Why can't i? Why can't i??? Both of them are guns, they weigh kilograms, fire cartridges, cost dollars. They can be dodged and it's not even like Cata requires a different dodging pattern. It's an ordinary spam gun

I never said Cata + SMG is a better method, or is superior to double SMG's, my point stated that Cata and SMG combo is just as deadly, if not more.

????????????????????????????????????

If it's "more deadly" then it's inherently a better method, what?

I am talking about a Cata reload, combined with an SMG attacking you, vs two smgs. I wasn't talking about dodging cata and SMG bullets.

And I am talking about both Cata and SMG encountering you at the same time. In my scenario, Cata + SMG is terrible compared to SMG + SMG.

Your comparison is bullshit either way. If you insist on comparing [Cata (3 bolts stuck) + an SMG walks in], then how about i compare [SMG (you are at 5 health) + another SMG walks in]? Again, which scenario is worse??

Yeah, and you felt the need to bring your stupid little "No1!! Why isn't health visible then! !1!!1grrrr"

Not stupid, nor little. I feel the need to point out and address hypocrisy, and i want consistency across game mechanics. Cata bolts are not fundamentally different from the healthbar, so if one is visible, the other should be as well.

So that you have a better chance to dislodge, before they reload

If reload is longer than dislodge, Cata will literally never kill anyone

I stand still to dislodge Enemy attack Now I move, and my dislodge time is reset They reload I am too slow to dislodge I die Me sad

I stand still to dislodge Enemy attack Now I move, and my dislodge time is reset They reload I shoot my gun at them and kill them I stand still and dislodge I get a kill and back to full health Me happy

Ah yes, it must be my fault that roofs exist.

You could use the "I am also standing still, possibly unaware, and vulnerable lmfao" complaint against literally every weapon in the game, then. Roofs are not Cata-specific. They are a global problem

At the expense of losing your dislodge time, yes.

Tradeoffs are the foundation of good gameplay

[ghost]

I mean melee is not a very powerful weapon, given the range, so it's not simple during combat. Outside of combat it would be easy, yes.

Well it also makes you faster and two shots (unless fists).

By the time you run away, regen, and come back, i have dislodged the bolts, so what's your point?

If you don't chase after me, I simply keep attacking. Either way, I can force you to engage in whatever way I want, with you having no control.

How the absolute hell is that similar?????

Something that takes more time, takes more time.

Neither player has an explicit advantage here. If you "run away and reload", i will also run away and hide behind cover, blocking your reload.

Yeah, but I've already started reloading. I've got a headstart, and you'll be too slow.

Bro has yet to learn the idea of "damage per second" lmao

I'm not denying the fact that two SMG's can kill way faster. My point is that in the context of two weapons that can kill you fast, and can still be avoided, it is not as powerful as a slow combination of two weapons, which ensure your death.

Why can't i? Why can't i??? Both of them are guns, they weigh kilograms, fire cartridges, cost dollars. They can be dodged and it's not even like Cata requires a different dodging pattern. It's an ordinary spam gun

tf....?

They weigh in kilograms, fire bullets, so they are the same in gamplay, lmfao? You never fail to amuse me.

I don't understand your point. If a cata reloads, and if a smg attacks you, then tell me deffered impact, how will you defend against both, now? How are the cartridges, and the weight, going to save you against two different damage channels?

If it's "more deadly" then it's inherently a better method, what?

huh

Your comparison is bullshit either way. If you insist on comparing [Cata (3 bolts stuck) + an SMG walks in], then how about i compare [SMG (you are at 5 health) + another SMG walks in]? Again, which scenario is worse??

Lmfao, why do the 2 SMG scenarios have the user at 5 health? If you want to compare effectively, both scenarios have same variables, with the gun combination as your manipulative/independant var, and everything else as control excluding health.

Not stupid, nor little. I feel the need to point out and address hypocrisy, and i want consistency across game mechanics. Cata bolts are not fundamentally different from the healthbar, so if one is visible, the other should be as well.

??????????? Consistency????? Hypocrisy???

You advise a weapon that promotes camping, while also being against it, and then you talk about consistency???

If reload is longer than dislodge, Cata will literally never kill anyone

If dislodge is longer than reload, no one will be able to dislodge.

I stand still to dislodge Enemy attack Now I move, and my dislodge time is reset They reload I shoot my gun at them and kill them I stand still and dislodge I get a kill and back to full health Me happy

I stand still to dislodge Enemy attack Now I move, and my dislodge time is reset They reload I shoot my gun at them and try to kill them They run away, while reloading. I can't dislodge I can't kill I die Me sad

You could use the "I am also standing still, possibly unaware, and vulnerable lmfao" complaint against literally every weapon in the game, then. Roofs are not Cata-specific. They are a global problem

what the fuck are you on about bro

standing still for 10 seconds under a roof, is different from being able to move under a roof. And that doesn't change shit. Whether it's a problem with all guns, or cata, it still doesn't change the fact that it makes you vulnerable.

Tradeoffs are the foundation of good gameplay

Yeah, you're right. fuck my survival chances and shit, i should care about gameplay.

[deferred-impact]

Well it also makes you faster and two shots (unless fists).

Melee is weaker than guns. If you disagree with this statement, why are you still on this github dashboard?

If you don't chase after me, I simply keep attacking. Either way, I can force you to engage in whatever way I want, with you having no control.

I have plenty of control, because i have more HP than you, so you cannot "simply keep attacking" with zero thought put into it. I have the advantage. I can dictate where and how you attack, and you going against my wishes is very risky.

Something that takes more time, takes more time.

Yes, but i literally didn't say "it takes more time", i only said "it takes time" so how the hell is what i said similar???

Yeah, but I've already started reloading. I've got a headstart, and you'll be too slow.

Depends very heavily on how the cover is positioned in the fight, and how much health you have left. You reloading is meaningless if i just kill you before you finish reloading.

I'm not denying the fact that two SMG's can kill way faster. My point is that in the context of two weapons that can kill you fast, and can still be avoided, it is not as powerful as a slow combination of two weapons, which ensure your death.

The "slow combination of two weapons" is easier to avoid, and does not ensure your death at all.

If a cata reloads, and if a smg attacks you, then tell me deffered impact, how will you defend against both, now?

I will focus my damage on the Cata, who is already half dead due to the damage i already dealt to them, and at the same time focus my dodges on the SMG, who is the only entity that can deal damage to me at this moment. I hope it is clear that only dodging a single enemy is easier than dodging 2 such enemies.

Lmfao, why do the 2 SMG scenarios have the user at 5 health?

If you insist on saying "Cata user is reloading", that means they already hit you with 3 bolts. If you actually use your brain for a moment and think about it, you will realize that the situation is absolutely similar to: you have 5 health, there's an SMG enemy near you, and their magazine is empty. They only need to reload to kill you.

If you want to compare effectively, both scenarios have same variables, with the gun combination as your manipulative/independant var, and everything else as control excluding health.

You're the one who's refusing to have the same variables, lmao. If the victim is almost-dead to Cata (= has 3 bolts stuck in them), the victim should be almost-dead to the SMG as well (= has 5 HP). Anything else is apples to oranges

You advise a weapon that promotes camping, while also being against it, and then you talk about consistency???

how the actual

FUCK

does Catalyst DMR promote camping

????????????????????????????

If dislodge is longer than reload, no one will be able to dislodge.

Yea they will be able to, because cover exists, and zoning abilities exist (walls, grenades, C4, mines, suppressive fire)

I stand still to dislodge Enemy attack Now I move, and my dislodge time is reset They reload I shoot my gun at them and try to kill them They run away, while reloading. I can't dislodge I can't kill I die Me sad

They run away, you run away. They attack, you attack. You may not be able to dislodge, but neither can they kill you, really. And throughout all of this, they are taking actual damage, while you are just vibing with the 3 bolts stuck in you.

And that doesn't change shit. Whether it's a problem with all guns, or cata, it still doesn't change the fact that it makes you vulnerable.

If it's a problem with all guns, you can't really use it as an argument against adding Catalyst DMR specifically

Yeah, you're right. fuck my survival chances and shit, i should care about gameplay.

I mean... yes? Literally. You should care about having fun, not about not dying. Would battledudes be a fun and engaging game if all players were invulnerable?

[ghost]

Melee is weaker than guns.

Yeah. What about it? I didn't say thats a bad method, my point indicates that it's a better counter than standing still for 10 seconds. It makes you vulnerable, but not too much, you still have the power to attack, just not as ranged, which is a decent idea. It's much more logical than standing still, so It's fine with me.

why are you still on this github dashboard?

I genuinely don't know. I'm puzzled as to why I'm banned from the discord, but not the repo lmfao.

I have plenty of control, because i have more HP than you, so you cannot "simply keep attacking" with zero thought put into it. I have the advantage. I can dictate where and how you attack, and you going against my wishes is very risky.

A. The fact that you assume that a cata player has low health when fighting someone with a normal gun, is hell of an assumption. Why? Because the gun promotes camping, since it deals no direct damage, it would be risky to use in a direct fight, so why fight directly? Now you might argue, that 4 shots aren't that effective in a camping situation, why would anyone try that?

1. It's better than directly fighting, that's for sure.
2. M1 bullets are fast. By the time a player reacts, they could easily be hit by two shots, and 3 shots are possible as well. Then all that's left, is reloading.

B. I can attack you, while securing myself, by just playing passive aggressive. You stand still, then I throw a nade to stop you from dislodging. Then what? You either try to stand still again and dislodge, or chase me. If you try to chase me, I will run around reloading, and my regen will kick in by that point. If you try to dislodge, I throw another nade, and then instantly begin to reload. Now since I have a headstart at reloading, you won't have enough time to dislodge, before my reloading is complete.

Yes, but i literally didn't say "it takes more time", i only said "it takes time" so how the hell is what i said similar???

Alright Mr. English, as you wish. Bro hates the word 'more'.

You didn't say it literally, yes.

Depends very heavily on how the cover is positioned in the fight, and how much health you have left. You reloading is meaningless if i just kill you before you finish reloading.

Do not forget, I can move while reloading. By the time all this action engages, with the nade throwing and running around, my regen will kick in.

I will focus my damage on the Cata, who is already half dead due to the damage i already dealt to them, and at the same time focus my dodges on the SMG,

??????? How, now? I have a cata, and my teammate has a SMG. I shoot 3 shots, and begin reloading, while my teammate starts blasting at you. Even if you do manage to kill me, your health will be very low, enough for my teammate to kill you. You try to chase me down, while my teammate chases you down.

If you insist on saying "Cata user is reloading", that means they already hit you with 3 bolts. If you actually use your brain for a moment and think about it, you will realize that the situation is absolutely similar to: you have 5 health, there's an SMG enemy near you, and their magazine is empty. They only need to reload to kill you.

Why are we comparing cata and SMG now?? Cata + SMG is more deadly than SMG + SMG. It's very simple.

does Catalyst DMR promote camping

Me use cata Me play against player Me get teamed up on Me do no actual damage Me die Me sad

Then, Me camp Me wait Someone comes Me jumpscare them Me kill them Me feel encouraged to camp

And I will bet my paycheck for this month, that that's exactly what's gonna happen if this idea is implemented lmfao.

Yea they will be able to, because cover exists, and zoning abilities exist (walls, grenades, C4, mines, suppressive fire)

If I start my reload before you, then you're fucked. You simply just don't have enough dislodging time. Now whether you try and shoot at me, chase me, attack me, cover will exist for me too. What's funny is that running around chasing me, would be the most stupidest thing to do, because it would be pointless, since I'll just run and reload. On the contrary, standing to dislodge wouldn't do much either, because again:

A. I can hit you with an explosive when you try to stand still, if i feel too lazy to complete my ongoing reload for some reason. B. I've started my reload before you, so dislodging won't work. C. One of my teammates may appear out of thin air, and put you in a deadlock.

You may not be able to dislodge, but neither can they kill you, really.

fucking what

If it's a problem with all guns, you can't really use it as an argument against adding Catalyst DMR specifically

So you agree it applies to Cata as well??

You should care about having fun, not about not dying.

My survival is directly connected to my fun.

Would battledudes be a fun and engaging game if all players were invulnerable?

Holy fuck, No. We aren't gonna add -or propose- an built-in godmod cheat to the game.

[deferred-impact]

I genuinely don't know. I'm puzzled as to why I'm banned from the discord, but not the repo lmfao.

I never banned you. I never even kicked you. I have no idea how you managed to convince yourself that you are banned. It's truly impressive.

A. The fact that you assume that a cata player has low health when fighting someone with a normal gun, is hell of an assumption.

It's not a hell of an assumption, it's a perfectly reasonable assumption. If you had the time to stick 3 bolts into me, that means i had the time to hit you with several bullets. You are not at full health.

Why? Because the gun promotes camping, since it deals no direct damage, it would be risky to use in a direct fight, so why fight directly?

Do this gun's bullets go through walls or something? You can see me - means i can see you - means i can shoot you in retaliation

Now you might argue, that 4 shots aren't that effective in a camping situation, why would anyone try that? It's better than directly fighting, that's for sure. M1 bullets are fast. By the time a player reacts, they could easily be hit by two shots, and 3 shots are possible as well. Then all that's left, is reloading.

What?

B. I can attack you, while securing myself, by just playing passive aggressive. You stand still, then I throw a nade to stop you from dislodging. Then what? You either try to stand still again and dislodge, or chase me. If you try to chase me, I will run around reloading, and my regen will kick in by that point. If you try to dislodge, I throw another nade, and then instantly begin to reload. Now since I have a headstart at reloading, you won't have enough time to dislodge, before my reloading is complete.

Or how about i throw a nade while running away, blocking you from chasing me, and then disappear into the edge of screen never to be found again

Alright Mr. English, as you wish. Bro hates the word 'more'. You didn't say it literally, yes.

I hate people twisting my words

Do not forget, I can move while reloading. By the time all this action engages, with the nade throwing and running around, my regen will kick in.

Do not forget, it takes less time for me to kill you, than it takes for you to reload

I have a cata, and my teammate has a SMG. I shoot 3 shots, and begin reloading, while my teammate starts blasting at you. Even if you do manage to kill me, your health will be very low, enough for my teammate to kill you. You try to chase me down, while my teammate chases you down.

A perfectly reasonable and balanced outcome of a 1v2, all things considered. Unless you're a god player, most 1v2 situations you won't be able to kill both enemies. Gotta appreciate killing at least one

Why are we comparing cata and SMG now??

Because they are both guns with the same goal, the same way of accomplishing that goal, and the only thing different between them is the damage channel each gun uses

Cata + SMG is more deadly than SMG + SMG. It's very simple.

No, never. SMG + SMG is more deadly. It's very simple. SMG damage stacks with SMG damage, Cata damage stacks with Cata damage, SMG damage does not stack with Cata damage

Me use cata Me play against player Me get teamed up on Me do no actual damage Me die Me sad Then, Me camp Me wait Someone comes Me jumpscare them Me kill them Me feel encouraged to camp

How is this a Catalyst DMR specific complaint? This applies to every single gun. The problem is not Cata, the problem is the game encouraging camping.

And I will bet my paycheck for this month, that that's exactly what's gonna happen if this idea is implemented lmfao.

You need to also consider that most guns kill in under 1 second. Cata, by its very nature, needs like 3 seconds to kill (let's assume a 2 second reload for now). So it would actually be worse for camping than any other campgun. You'd have more success with a Sawed Off.

If I start my reload before you, then you're fucked. You simply just don't have enough dislodging time.

I have enough time to kill you, though.

Now whether you try and shoot at me, chase me, attack me, cover will exist for me too. What's funny is that running around chasing me, would be the most stupidest thing to do, because it would be pointless, since I'll just run and reload.

No, it wouldn't be pointless. It turns the battle into a positional challenge. My job is to make us move in such a way that, while you are reloading, there isn't a wall between us (allowing me to kill you), but when you finish reloading, there's a wall between us (blocking your instakill burst). Your job is to make us move in such a way that, while you are reloading, there is a wall between us (blocking my damage), and when you finish reloading, there isn't a wall between us (allowing your reload to instakill me). It's actually a rather interesting and engaging gameplay loop, by the sounds of it.

On the contrary, standing to dislodge wouldn't do much either, because again:

I will concede that standing still is probably not the solution most of the time. It still could be the right action in certain circumstances. If someone has a wall, or a C4, they could block your only path and simply stand there

So you agree it applies to Cata as well??

Obviously, and? My point is, if it's a problem that plagues all guns, you cannot use it as an argument against adding a new gun.

My survival is directly connected to my fun.

Then a TDM game with sub-second TTK is not the game for you. Go play diep.io or something.

Holy fuck, No. We aren't gonna add -or propose- an built-in godmod cheat to the game.

Oh yea? Why not? I thought your fun depended on you surviving??? If this game had a godmod, you could survive forever!

[ghost]

I never banned you. I never even kicked you. I have no idea how you managed to convince yourself that you are banned. It's truly impressive.

It's not a hell of an assumption, it's a perfectly reasonable assumption. If you had the time to stick 3 bolts into me, that means i had the time to hit you with several bullets. You are not at full health.

I could very well be playing against a HS user, who has terrible aim.

Do this gun's bullets go through walls or something? You can see me - means i can see you - means i can shoot you in retaliation

"You can see me - means i can see you" - deffered-impact 2023

So, have you heard of this thing, called roofs?

What?

You may argue that camping with Cata is useless, because it doesn't kill as fast as other guns, it actually takes 4 shots to kill. Still, it gives someone camping a very high advantage, for all you know, by the time you notice them, they'll have stuck almost 3 M1 cata bullets into you, seeing the high firerate and bullet speed of a M1 copy weapon.

Or how about i throw a nade while running away, blocking you from chasing me, and then disappear into the edge of screen never to be found again

If you cook the nade, it'll slow you down, which is more than enough time for me to kill you with my secondary before that nade even escapes your hands. If you toss that shit with a simple click, it will take a whole 3 seconds to blow up, which is plenty of time for me to pass the nade, and chase you.

I hate people twisting my words

I hate people who argue with me for weeks about balancing a weapon, and then proceed to tell me I never was talking about balancing it.

Do not forget, it takes less time for me to kill you, than it takes for you to reload

By all means, of course you may kill me, if:

You can get to me, while I run and reload If my regen hasn't kicked in by that point

A perfectly reasonable and balanced outcome of a 1v2, all things considered. Unless you're a god player, most 1v2 situations you won't be able to kill both enemies.

? So what was the original complaint about then? If you admit cata and SMG can kill you, unless you have extreme skill to somehow kill both, then I see no reason for argument.

Because they are both guns with the same goal, the same way of accomplishing that goal, and the only thing different between them is the damage channel each gun uses

The topic is about cata + SMG vs SMG + SMG

not Cata vs SMG, because that is a different situation.

SMG damage does not stack with Cata damage

Which is why you can't defend against both. You either dodge the SMG, or stop the cata from reloading.

How is this a Catalyst DMR specific complaint?

Because Cata doesn't deal direct damage, unlike other guns.

needs like 3 seconds to kill (let's assume a 2 second reload for now). So it would actually be worse for camping than any other campgun. You'd have more success with a Sawed Off.

Yes, compared to the other weapons, it would be terrible for camping. However, that's most likely the best use your average player will find for it, because again, fighting with it directly will be worse, if facing multiple people grouped up together, which happens very often.

I have enough time to kill you, though.

I have enough time to run though.

My job is to make us move in such a way that, while you are reloading, there isn't a wall between us (allowing me to kill you), but when you finish reloading, there's a wall between us (blocking your instakill burst).

There's no way for you to tell when my reload has started. I could have started way earlier than you thought, and then you chase me at the wrong time.

Your job is to make us move in such a way that, while you are reloading, there is a wall between us (blocking my damage), and when you finish reloading, there isn't a wall between us (allowing your reload to instakill me). It's actually a rather interesting and engaging gameplay loop, by the sounds of it.

If you're chasing me, I don't need to worry much about cover. I can run around a building, and while you chase me, as soon as my reload finishes, I turn around, and face you, so that you are in my line of sight, as you instantly die.

If someone has a wall, or a C4, they could block your only path and simply stand there

I can shoot a c4. What would be worse, if the c4 user were standing close to the c4, who then takes damage from the c4 after i blow it up. A better explosive would be a mine.

Obviously, and? My point is, if it's a problem that plagues all guns, you cannot use it as an argument against adding a new gun.

I could use it against cata, because unlike other guns, it does not deal any direct damage. So why would anyone risk using it, when they have a high chance of encountering more than one player? (Assuming they play a fully filled game) I do admit it would be terrible for camping usage, but it would be a much more preferred method, rather than trying to engage in a fight with multiple enemies.

Then a TDM game with sub-second TTK is not the game for you.

?

Go play diep.io or something.

lmfao that game involves death as well, so I don't see your point

Oh yea? Why not? I thought your fun depended on you surviving??? If this game had a godmode, you could survive forever!

My fun relies on how well I can survive with my skills, and my weapons. If I die, because the enemy just had an absurd deadlock on me, then no, I won't have fun.

[ghost]

I wonder if we can get this to 100 messages.

[deferred-impact]

I never banned you. I never even kicked you. I have no idea how you managed to convince yourself that you are banned. It's truly impressive.

All evidence points towards some sort of a bug in the discord database. Or, you're an alt account of one of these 4

I could very well be playing against a HS user, who has terrible aim.

Yes but if we're discussing weapon balance, we are obligated to consider both players equally skilled

"You can see me - means i can see you" - deffered-impact 2023 So, have you heard of this thing, called roofs?

Roofs don't block bullets, they only block vision. If i see your Cata spam appear from under a roof, nothing really stops me from spamming back at you.

And again, this isn't a Cata-specific issue, it ruins gameplay no matter the weapon.

You may argue that camping with Cata is useless, because it doesn't kill as fast as other guns, it actually takes 4 shots to kill.

It's not just "4 shots to kill", it's shot - wait 200ms - shot - wait 200ms - shot - wait 2 seconds - kill. It's quite slow, compared to other guns.

Still, it gives someone camping a very high advantage, for all you know, by the time you notice them, they'll have stuck almost 3 M1 cata bullets into you, seeing the high firerate and bullet speed of a M1 copy weapon.

You continue to misunderstand, perhaps on purpose? Or are you genuinely that stupid? If a Vector spammer jumps out from a roof and sprays you, and gets you down to 5 HP, how long do you have until you die to their next shot? Roughly 0 seconds. If a Cata player jumps out from a roof and gets you "down" to 3 bolts, how long do you have until you die to their reload? Several seconds.

If you cook the nade, it'll slow you down, which is more than enough time for me to kill you with my secondary before that nade even escapes your hands.

Secondaries are way weaker than that.

If you toss that shit with a simple click, it will take a whole 3 seconds to blow up, which is plenty of time for me to pass the nade, and chase you.

Okay, and if i throw a C4 or a sticky?

I hate people who argue with me for weeks about balancing a weapon, and then proceed to tell me I never was talking about balancing it.

You suck at making compelling points.

By all means, of course you may kill me, if: You can get to me, while I run and reload If my regen hasn't kicked in by that point

Couple of paragraphs above you said you would try and chase me if i tried to run away. That sounds like the perfect opportunity for me to turn around and "get to you" and kill you rather easily.

? So what was the original complaint about then? If you admit cata and SMG can kill you, unless you have extreme skill to somehow kill both, then I see no reason for argument.

As far as i remember, your original complaint was that Cata + SMG is a stronger combo than SMG + SMG. Which is just idiotic.

Let's put it this way. I have a higher chance to win 1v2 against Cata + SMG, than to win 1v2 against SMG + SMG.

The topic is about cata + SMG vs SMG + SMG not Cata vs SMG, because that is a different situation.

What????

That's like saying "the topic is 3 + 5, vs 5 + 5, and the difference between a 3 and a 5 is not important!!1" The difference between 3 and 5 is literally what defines the outcome

Which is why you can't defend against both. You either dodge the SMG, or stop the cata from reloading.

I literally explained 3 messages ago that it's possible to dodge the SMG and kill Cata at the same time. I don't need to dodge Cata if i can kill it before it kills me. Ultimately it works vice versa, i don't need to dodge the SMG if i can kill it before it kills me. Killing either unit completely erases whatever damage it already dealt, from the scenario.

In a SMG + SMG scenario, even if i focus on dodging A, and try to kill B, B is dealing damage to me, and even after B is dead, A can stack on top of that damage.

[Cata users would prefer camping] Because Cata doesn't deal direct damage, unlike other guns.

I have explained several times that Cata would suck for camping. If you're trying to surprise kill, you want a weapon that can kill instantly. Cata is slow compared to other guns. If someone wanted to camp, they would pick a Vector or a Sawed Off.

There's no way for you to tell when my reload has started. I could have started way earlier than you thought, and then you chase me at the wrong time.

Yeah there's a way, it's called noticing patterns in how people act and predicting the opponent's next move. Some even consider it a skill.

If you're chasing me, I don't need to worry much about cover. I can run around a building, and while you chase me, as soon as my reload finishes, I turn around, and face you, so that you are in my line of sight, as you instantly die.

When your reload finishes, i will be positioned in such a way that it cannot hit me. By which point you're back to square one, and i get to continue the chase.

I could use it against cata, because unlike other guns, it does not deal any direct damage. So why would anyone risk using it, when they have a high chance of encountering more than one player? (Assuming they play a fully filled game) I do admit it would be terrible for camping usage, but it would be a much more preferred method, rather than trying to engage in a fight with multiple enemies.

For the 50th time, Cata is not good for camping.

Actually i would argue that Cata would work very well as a crowd control weapon. You only need to hit each player with 3 shots. You have however many shots in your magazine. Then once you have tagged them all, you can reload and kill multiple players in a single epic burst.

lmfao that game involves death as well, so I don't see your point

Surviving in diep is much easier than surviving in battledudes

My fun relies on how well I can survive with my skills, and my weapons. If I die, because the enemy just had an absurd deadlock on me, then no, I won't have fun.

The enemy had an absurd deadlock on you simply because you didn't use your skills and weapons correctly.

I wonder if we can get this to 100 messages.

This is so sad can we hit 50 likes

[ghost]

All evidence points towards some sort of a bug in the discord database. Or, you're an alt account of one of these 4

I'm neither of those. If I was banned, I wouldn't have been able to join in the first place, assuming you've banned them before I joined.

Yes but if we're discussing weapon balance, we are obligated to consider both players equally skilled

A. No, skill isn't a number, so you really can't say they have the same exact skill. They may be similar, but not the same. B. Alright, if you don't prefer the nerfing of a player, how about we try buffing instead.

I could very well be playing against a HS user, who I am able to dodge, and shoot them at the same time. In every situation, we can't be sure that the enemy has an AR or SMG, since HS and Pump, and other things are common weapons as well.

Roofs don't block bullets, they only block vision. If i see your Cata spam appear from under a roof, nothing really stops me from spamming back at you.

Why would I shoot from under a roof? I would wait for you to enter the roof, and then start spamming you by surprise, just like any camper does.....

And again, this isn't a Cata-specific issue, it ruins gameplay no matter the weapon.

That's not my point. Of course camping can be applied to any weapon, even if it's terrible at it, but it isn't enforced. Even if you have an AR or SMG, or a secondary or whatever, you also have a good chance at using it directly, because it deals direct damage. Cata however, has a terrible chance against multiple players, which is why your average player would consider camping with it instead, even if its terrible, because that's about the best situation for it, besides a 1v1 maybe.

It's not just "4 shots to kill", it's shot - wait 200ms - shot - wait 200ms - shot - wait 2 seconds - kill. It's quite slow, compared to other guns.

Slow? M1? Didn't I have an argument with you in discord, that you conveniently ditched, about how fast that shit was, and how it challenged an AR despite being classified as a sniper?

0.2 second firerate is enough to jumpscare anyone. The only thing I'd say is slow, would be the reload.

If a Vector spammer jumps out from a roof and sprays you, and gets you down to 5 HP, how long do you have until you die to their next shot? Roughly 0 seconds. If a Cata player jumps out from a roof and gets you "down" to 3 bolts, how long do you have until you die to their reload? Several seconds.

A. Vector has a hilariously small ammo rounds, if they manage to get me at 5, and don't kill me, then they need to reload, which is convenient for me to run away. B. Dude no one jumps out of their roof, they wait for you to come in. C. And the death time seconds matter because...? How is cata promoting camping related to vector now? My point is that cata encourages camping more than any other weapon, since it's so bad against multiple enemies, meaning its bad in basically any gamemode in pubs (with a filled lobby).

Secondaries are way weaker than that.

Flint, deagle, and crossbow mald in a corner

Okay, and if i throw a C4 or a sticky?

I can shoot a c4. Or actually, I can just walk around it lmfao.

Again, same logic for sticky, if you barely cook that shit, I can passby (I think sticky takes even longer to blow up than nade, pretty sure), and if you cook it, I'll have killed you before you even throw it.

You suck at making compelling points.

You suck at understanding them. Not my problem.

Couple of paragraphs above you said you would try and chase me if i tried to run away. That sounds like the perfect opportunity for me to turn around and "get to you" and kill you rather easily.

Kill regen.

As far as i remember, your original complaint was that Cata + SMG is a stronger combo than SMG + SMG. Which is just idiotic.

Ok. Go. Find me a screenshot where I said it is stronger. I said it was more deadly, more of a deadlock.

That's like saying "the topic is 3 + 5, vs 5 + 5, and the difference between a 3 and a 5 is not important!!1" The difference between 3 and 5 is literally what defines the outcome

Wha...?

So we're defining the guns with numbers now or something?

I don't need to dodge Cata if i can kill it before it kills me. Ultimately it works vice versa, i don't need to dodge the SMG if i can kill it before it kills me.

Good luck killing a cata with an SMG on your ass, and the cata constantly reloading. Good luck dodging a SMG, while the cata prepares to one shot you.

You purposefully don't want to understand my point, then don't. Don't waste my time.

In a SMG + SMG scenario, even if i focus on dodging A, and try to kill B, B is dealing damage to me, and even after B is dead, A can stack on top of that damage.

The exact same can be said for cata vs SMG lmfao You kill a SMG, the cata will have reloaded You kill the cata (if you even do so without dying to the SMG by that point) the SMG, that's on your ass, kills you.

I have explained several times that Cata would suck for camping. If you're trying to surprise kill, you want a weapon that can kill instantly. Cata is slow compared to other guns. If someone wanted to camp, they would pick a Vector or a Sawed Off.

Do you see me disagreeing???? Like have I said, its better in camping than other weapons??? Find me a fucking screenshot of that, go ahead, prove me wrong.

My point, which I have stated explicitly, is that camping would be a much better way than fighting against multiple enemies, its the best option one would be encouraged to use, rather than risking fighting against multiple players. It's a shit idea, yes, but its their best idea, seeing that a gun like cata would be useless against multiple enemies. You yourself admitted it in the description.

Yeah there's a way, it's called noticing patterns in how people act and predicting the opponent's next move. Some even consider it a skill.

What pattern indicates that I've reloaded? I could be running away while reloading, on purpose, to make you think I haven't finished it yet, even though I am 100ms away from killing you.

When your reload finishes, i will be positioned in such a way that it cannot hit me. By which point you're back to square one, and i get to continue the chase.

Again, how will you realize when my reload has finished?

Actually i would argue that Cata would work very well as a crowd control weapon. You only need to hit each player with 3 shots. You have however many shots in your magazine. Then once you have tagged them all, you can reload and kill multiple players in a single epic burst.

??? Are we just gonna ignore the entire team hitting you? I mean sure, you can hit them all with three shots, if you can survive until then.

Man i wish i was on the github server, I'd be able to find that quote of yours: "Don't contradict yourself in front of me, you will regret it" in a screenshot. Would be beautifully paired with the last sentence of your description of cata.

Surviving in diep is much easier than surviving in battledudes

🤷‍♂️ maybe it is, idk Played it like, twice in my entire life.

The enemy had an absurd deadlock on you simply because you didn't use your skills and weapons correctly.

More like because I got jumpscared by a speedy M1 gun that stuck 3 (or 2) bolts in me before I could even react.

This is so sad can we hit 50 likes

don't forget to hit the notification bell

[ghost]

Wow i've never spelled deferred right. Took me years to realize.

[deferred-impact]

I'm neither of those. If I was banned, I wouldn't have been able to join in the first place, assuming you've banned them before I joined.

Discord does IP bans. In fact i think i just realized who you are, ha! Weren't you visiting another place recently? If true, that would explain why you were able to join. Your other account is banned, but another place = another IP = able to bypass the IP ban

A. No, skill isn't a number, so you really can't say they have the same exact skill.

Breaking News: Local Gamer Completely Destroys All Ranking Systems With a Single Statement

I don't need them to have "same exact skill", i need them to be close enough where the difference doesn't matter

B. Alright, if you don't prefer the nerfing of a player, how about we try buffing instead.

How does that address my point, that you're using players of different skill as a baseline for game balance?

Why would I shoot from under a roof? I would wait for you to enter the roof, and then start spamming you by surprise, just like any camper does.....

Cuz once i enter the roof i can see you, and most of your surprise is completely lost

Even if you have an AR or SMG, or a secondary or whatever, you also have a good chance at using it directly, because it deals direct damage. Cata however, [sucks at dealing damage directly]

In one thread you're saying that Cata is OP as all hell, because it can lock down players, and because healing its damage is really hard. In other thread you're saying that it's a terrible and ineffective weapon. No, chief, can't both be true.

Think of it this way: sure, Cata deals damage less effectively than a "direct" weapon, but the damage it deals is much harder to heal. It's a tradeoff, and one that many players, me included, would gladly go for. Without camping.

Slow? M1? Didn't I have an argument with you in discord, that you conveniently ditched, about how fast that shit was, and how it challenged an AR despite being classified as a sniper? 0.2 second firerate is enough to jumpscare anyone. The only thing I'd say is slow, would be the reload.

It can't fucking kill without reloading, so you could make it have 0.01 second firerate (which would make it a shotgun at that point, i guess) and it would still be shit at camping. No matter how quickly you fire those bolts, you cannot kill the enemy without 2 seconds (or whatever) of reload time

A. Vector has a hilariously small ammo rounds, if they manage to get me at 5, and don't kill me, then they need to reload, which is convenient for me to run away.

I didn't say they emptied their magazine while firing at you. I just said, at this exact hypothetical moment, there's a Vector spammer near you, and you are at 5 HP. They most likely still have bullets in the mag. Additionally, Extended Mags is a thing.

The point about Cata is that no matter how big the mag is, shooting it becomes useless as soon as the target has 3 bolts in them. And the long reload ruins camping with it.

B. Dude no one jumps out of their roof, they wait for you to come in.

Ok, sure. Doesn't change my points in the slightest.

C. And the death time seconds matter because...? How is cata promoting camping related to vector now?

Death time seconds time to kill is an incredibly important stat, that pretty much defines how good a weapon is at its job, which is killing the target. Especially in a fast paced short TTK game like battledudes, TTK is very important.

My point is that cata encourages camping more than any other weapon, since it's so bad against multiple enemies, meaning its bad in basically any gamemode in pubs (with a filled lobby).

Every sniper weapon is "bad against multiple enemies". Does that mean that snipers promote camping?

Flint, deagle, and crossbow mald in a corner

Flint and Crossbow are easily dodgeable. Deagle is mediocre.

I can shoot a c4. Or actually, I can just walk around it lmfao.

The path around it is longer, and - middle school physics lesson - longer path is more time. By the time you are done walking around it, i'll be off your screen.

You can shoot it, yes. And i can throw another one.

I use C4s all the time in this game. They are incredibly good zoning tools and discourage players from chasing you very, very well. I think i know what i'm talking about.

Again, same logic for sticky, if you barely cook that shit, I can passby (I think sticky takes even longer to blow up than nade, pretty sure), and if you cook it, I'll have killed you before you even throw it.

No you won't have me killed, because i'm at full health, the only """damage""" you dealt so far is hit me with 3 bolts that don't do anything unless you reload

Couple of paragraphs above you said you would try and chase me if i tried to run away. That sounds like the perfect opportunity for me to turn around and "get to you" and kill you rather easily.

Kill regen.

?????

Do you not understand what triggers Kill Regen? It's in the goddamn name

Ok. Go. Find me a screenshot where I said it is stronger. I said it was more deadly, more of a deadlock.

More deadly = stronger. Literally.

Wha...? So we're defining the guns with numbers now or something?

The way you talk makes me assume you are capable of comprehending simple allegories and parallels, but evidently, you are not.

Re-read that 3+5 statement i said, couple of times, maybe you'll get it eventually.

Good luck killing a cata with an SMG on your ass, and the cata constantly reloading. Good luck dodging a SMG, while the cata prepares to one shot you.

I don't need luck, i don't even need that much skill. Are you completely incapable of doing two things at once? Aim at one guy, dodge the other. It's the most basic skill

You purposefully don't want to understand my point, then don't. Don't waste my time.

Oh i understand it all very well. Problem is, most of it is complete wack.

The exact same can be said for cata vs SMG lmfao You kill the cata (if you even do so without dying to the SMG by that point) the SMG, that's on your ass, kills you.

No, the exact same cannot be said. In a SMG + SMG fight, i have to dodge both sets of bullets. In the SMG + Cata fight, i only need to dodge one set of bullets (i mean if you think about it, Cata won't even be firing, it's too busy reloading). Dodging a single set of bullets is not particularly hard. As long as i dodge well enough, and kill Cata before it reloads - both tasks perfectly achievable - i can confront and kill the SMG afterwards.

Do you see me disagreeing???? Like have I said, its better in camping than other weapons??? Find me a fucking screenshot of that, go ahead, prove me wrong.

You said people would want to camp with Cata, because it sucks at direct combat. Thing is, it sucks at camping. Why would anyone want to camp with it? It's literally stronger in direct combat, than it is when camping. And if someone did want to camp, they'd use a better weapon, more suited for the task.

seeing that a gun like cata would be useless against multiple enemies. You yourself admitted it in the description.

What i meant by "in team fights" is, it's not effective in a scenario where you have teammates - because you cannot stack your damage with their damage.

Whether it's good against multiple enemies... certainly up to debate. With the correct usage of cover, it could be quite deadly against even a large group. The "damage" it deals is hard to heal, and it can kill multiple enemies in a single reload, so.

I also don't get why you've set up this false dichotomy of "you either camp or you fight multiple enemies". No, 1v1 fights are rather common, and Cata seems to be the perfect weapon for that (considering how it doesn't stack damage with teammates). With correct positioning and use of zoning tools, a Cata user would be able to force 1v1s often enough.

What pattern indicates that I've reloaded?

I mean, i would expect the reload burst to have a visible effect.

I could be running away while reloading, on purpose, to make you think I haven't finished it yet, even though I am 100ms away from killing you.

Damn. Never play fighting games, bro. "How are you gonna know when the enemy will throw their next punch?!" It's a skill, called "reading your opponent"

Man i wish i was on the github server, I'd be able to find that quote of yours: "Don't contradict yourself in front of me, you will regret it" in a screenshot. Would be beautifully paired with the last sentence of your description of cata.

Have fun

More like because I got jumpscared by a speedy M1 gun that stuck 3 (or 2) bolts in me before I could even react.

Who cares if you could react or not? You're not dead, for fuck's sake. You have 2 more seconds to react, to pay your bills, to call your mother, or, y'know, kill the enemy maybe?

Literally every other weapon is deadlier in this scenario and more frustrating to fight against. A Sawed Off jumpscare does not give you those 2 seconds of react time

[ghost]

Discord does IP bans. In fact i think i just realized who you are, ha! Weren't you visiting another place recently? If true, that would explain why you were able to join. Your other account is banned, but another place = another IP = able to bypass the IP ban

Huh? I was in Europe for a week, when I was traveling, which is much more time than I have spent on the github server. I do not ban evade, do not accuse me of it.

I don't need them to have "same exact skill", i need them to be close enough where the difference doesn't matter

Then say that then.

How does that address my point, that you're using players of different skill as a baseline for game balance?

They are similar in skill, enough that the difference doesn't matter. One of them however, is able to dodge the enemies HS shots better, because those shots are much slower in firerate. The enemy however, lets say, isn't as fortunate, because they are not able to dodge as well because the user's M1 shots are much faster in firerate, and have more ammo capacity.

Cuz once i enter the roof i can see you, and most of your surprise is completely lost

Well the idea is that the milisecond you enter the roof, not expecting me, I instantly begin to blast my shots at you. The surprise doesn't end after you see me, the surprise is that you see me.

In one thread you're saying that Cata is OP as all hell, because it can lock down players, and because healing its damage is really hard. In other thread you're saying that it's a terrible and ineffective weapon. No, chief, can't both be true.

I said its counter is trash, when fighting against a single opponent. I said it is terrible, when fighting against multiple opponents.

They are not the same.

Think of it this way: sure, Cata deals damage less effectively than a "direct" weapon, but the damage it deals is much harder to heal. It's a tradeoff, and one that many players, me included, would gladly go for. Without camping.

Works for me, if you may find players that agree with you. I'll have to make a poll for that, to see what exactly bd players have to say about cata. My next response will have an update for that.

It can't fucking kill without reloading, so you could make it have 0.01 second firerate (which would make it a shotgun at that point, i guess) and it would still be shit at camping. No matter how quickly you fire those bolts, you cannot kill the enemy without 2 seconds (or whatever) of reload time

I mean sure, you can't kill them instantly, but sticking 3 bolts into them basically does half the job.

I didn't say they emptied their magazine while firing at you. I just said, at this exact hypothetical moment, there's a Vector spammer near you, and you are at 5 HP. They most likely still have bullets in the mag. Additionally, Extended Mags is a thing.

And that matters because? I don't disagree, like i've stated about 50 other times in my responses, Cata is absolute trash for camping, but I see no better method to which a player will prefer. The only thing the gun is good at, is 1v1's which is terrible for pubs, which then leads to camping. Of course, a vector could do the job better perhaps, but I don't think a cata user will be too thrilled to march up to a group of 4 enemies, and take them on.

And the long reload ruins camping with it.

It also ruins fighting against multiple enemies.

Death time seconds time to kill is an incredibly important stat, that pretty much defines how good a weapon is at its job, which is killing the target. Especially in a fast paced short TTK game like battledudes, TTK is very important.

And you know what matters in fighting against teams? Doing direct damage.

Every sniper weapon is "bad against multiple enemies". Does that mean that snipers promote camping?

A. Which sniper are you talking about, besides HS? M1 and LS are basically the same, with speedy firerate and good ammo capacity. B. Unlike cata, those weapons actually deal direct damage.

Flint and Crossbow are easily dodgeable. Deagle is mediocre.

I'm not rating secondaries here, I'm talking about whether they can do the job of killing someone while they cook a nade, and the answer is yes.

The path around it is longer, and - middle school physics lesson - longer path is more time. By the time you are done walking around it, i'll be off your screen.

A. What if I have beserker? B. It hardly takes much time...I could walk around it in roughly half a second. And even if you aren't on my screen, I can chase you by estimating where you could have gone. If you go down a road, which leads to a specific building, lets say, then I have a good idea of where to find you. And it would be even worse, lets say, if I was hunting you down, and crashed in on you while you were fighting one of my teammates who had an SMG... Feel the Deja vu?

You can shoot it, yes. And i can throw another one.

You're going to leave me a c4 trail to follow? How nice of you!!

No you won't have me killed, because i'm at full health, the only """damage""" you dealt so far is hit me with 3 bolts that don't do anything unless you reload

I was talking about using my secondary, not cata. Whether if cata can kill someone before they can cook a nade properly depends on the reload time of cata.

Do you not understand what triggers Kill Regen? It's in the goddamn name

Of all the time you spend running, and then to plan a moment to turn around and "get me", my kill regen will have most definitely triggered.

More deadly = stronger. Literally.

I hate people who mangle my words.

I don't need luck, i don't even need that much skill. Are you completely incapable of doing two things at once? Aim at one guy, dodge the other. It's the most basic skill

You greatly overestimate the skill of an average bd player. Please, do me a favor and never become a game developer.

Oh i understand it all very well. Problem is, most of it is complete wack.

yeah, your brain is quite wack ngl

No, the exact same cannot be said. In a SMG + SMG fight, i have to dodge both sets of bullets. In the SMG + Cata fight, i only need to dodge one set of bullets

Well then dodge both. Its a basic skill to dodge and aim right? Now you have only one action required to survive: dodge. Should be basic, right?

What i meant by "in team fights" is, it's not effective in a scenario where you have teammates - because you cannot stack your damage with their damage.

Why should I care for their damage? They are already trying to survive my team's bullets (if my team isn't being beaten), now they have to worry about my bolts in a separate damage channel too. As a benefit, I don't even need to worry about my kills being stolen.

Whether it's good against multiple enemies... certainly up to debate. With the correct usage of cover, it could be quite deadly against even a large group. The "damage" it deals is hard to heal, and it can kill multiple enemies in a single reload, so.

Again, you greatly overestimate the skill of a bd player.

I also don't get why you've set up this false dichotomy of "you either camp or you fight multiple enemies". No, 1v1 fights are rather common, and Cata seems to be the perfect weapon for that (considering how it doesn't stack damage with teammates). With correct positioning and use of zoning tools, a Cata user would be able to force 1v1s often enough.

You shouldn't have to force a 1v1. My belief is that weapons should allow you to give you a good chance to deal with any type of crowds, whether they are multiple, or single. Besides, just because one thing is common, doesn't mean we can disregard the other. And I've already argued with you about its deadlock in 1v1s.

I mean, i would expect the reload burst to have a visible effect.

Pardon my phrasing, but I meant to ask, What pattern indicates that I'm reloading?

Damn. Never play fighting games, bro. "How are you gonna know when the enemy will throw their next punch?!"

[Street Fighter] Normally, I don't let that occur. I'll have rattled them with combos, before they can even hit me with a light punch, or even a light kick, if they get that chance. And if I use Akuma by any chance, with Wrath of raging demon, then they are fucked.

It's a skill, called "reading your opponent"

And what.....kind of message allows you to tell precisely when I've reloaded? And if there is one, that is the chance I cannot manipulate those reading patterns to make you think I have not reloaded yet, when I am just about to finish?

Who cares if you could react or not? You're not dead, for fuck's sake. You have 2 more seconds to react, to pay your bills, to call your mother, or, y'know, kill the enemy maybe?

Literally every other weapon is deadlier in this scenario and more frustrating to fight against. A Sawed Off jumpscare does not give you those 2 seconds of react time

2 more seconds until I shove another bolt in you, and then begin the reloading game, where I put you in a deadlock.

[deferred-impact]

Huh? I was in Europe for a week, when I was traveling, which is much more time than I have spent on the github server. I do not ban evade, do not accuse me of it.

Things align a bit too well for my liking.

Then say that then.

Goodness gracious, how pedantic.

Well the idea is that the milisecond you enter the roof, not expecting me, I instantly begin to blast my shots at you. The surprise doesn't end after you see me, the surprise is that you see me.

If i saw you, 90% of your surprise is gone. What i consider a true camping jumpscare, is if i walk by a roof without looking into it (perhaps i'm fighting someone else, perhaps i just forgot) and i get blasted by ??? that i don't even see.

Plus, to see someone under a roof, you need to aim at them. At which point blasting them is quite trivial

I said its counter is trash, when fighting against a single opponent. I said it is terrible, when fighting against multiple opponents.

Okay, so what's the problem then? A weapon that's good against single targets and bad against groups. "Oh no, anyway", cried the sniper weapon users

I'll have to make a poll for that, to see what exactly bd players have to say about cata.

I highly suspect the battledudes discord members won't have enough brain capacity to understand Cata from text

I mean sure, you can't kill them instantly, but sticking 3 bolts into them basically does half the job.

It doesn't matter how much of the "job" is done, what matters is the time. Assuming a 0.2s firerate, it takes 0.4s to stick 3 bolts. You can call it half the job, you can call it 95% of the job, the truth is, it's only 16% of the time needed to kill. (And also note, it assumes 0 misses)

And that matters because? I don't disagree, like i've stated about 50 other times in my responses, Cata is absolute trash for camping, but I see no better method to which a player will prefer. The only thing the gun is good at, is 1v1's which is terrible for pubs, which then leads to camping. Of course, a vector could do the job better perhaps, but I don't think a cata user will be too thrilled to march up to a group of 4 enemies, and take them on.

If it's good at 1v1, then that's literally the better method that players will prefer. Stop acting like pubs are all about team fights. It's really not that hard to avoid team fights and stick to 1v1s.

[long reload] also ruins fighting against multiple enemies.

So don't fight against multiple enemies.

A. Which sniper are you talking about, besides HS? M1 and LS are basically the same, with speedy firerate and good ammo capacity. B. Unlike cata, those weapons actually deal direct damage.

All snipers suck against multiple targets, though certainly M1 and LS have an easier time in such a scenario. The truth is simple - ARs have higher DPS, which is offset by the fact that they miss most of their shots. But if you're fighting a group of enemies, you're not missing those shots

I'm not rating secondaries here, I'm talking about whether they can do the job of killing someone while they cook a nade, and the answer is yes.

The answer is "depends". Depends on the skill of players involved. Again, a good player will trivially dodge Flint shots

A. What if I have beserker?

Do you know how berserker works..? Since the last update?

B. It hardly takes much time...I could walk around it in roughly half a second. And even if you aren't on my screen, I can chase you by estimating where you could have gone. If you go down a road, which leads to a specific building, lets say, then I have a good idea of where to find you. And it would be even worse, lets say, if I was hunting you down, and crashed in on you while you were fighting one of my teammates who had an SMG... Feel the Deja vu?

All of these complaints apply to you, and perhaps even more so. Imagine running away from an SMG, and running into another SMG, and now having to fight 2 SMGs, with your much beloved and "very OP you cannot run from me" Catalyst DMR

I was talking about using my secondary, not cata. Whether if cata can kill someone before they can cook a nade properly depends on the reload time of cata.

My point is that in any scenario where Cata is involved, switching to a different weapon is a death wish. You are at low HP. I am at full HP. If you switch to a secondary weapon, i have the advantage.

Of all the time you spend running, and then to plan a moment to turn around and "get me", my kill regen will have most definitely triggered.

Are you trolling or are you truly that stupid?

Kill Regen perk description: "Instantly start regenerating health after a kill"

Now, i get what you're trying and failing to say. You mean the ordinary auto regen. No, i don't think it will have triggered by that time. It takes like 5-7 seconds to start, and that's a long time

I hate people who mangle my words.

I'm not mangling your words. You are creating a distinction where no distinction needs to exist. If a weapon is deadlier, it is stronger. Please explain how i'm wrong, because i feel like i'm missing some really deep philosophy lesson here, if you're right.

You greatly overestimate the skill of an average bd player. Please, do me a favor and never become a game developer.

People adapt to their environment. The reason players in this game are so stupid, is because the game doesn't ask them to be smart. If we give them more guns like this - guns that require thinking and strategy - some will leave, some will adapt and get better. In the end the playerbase will be smarter and more skilled.

A favor? Oh, i'll do you a favor, alright.

Well then dodge both. Its a basic skill to dodge and aim right? Now you have only one action required to survive: dodge. Should be basic, right?

I mean, if i am fighting 2 SMGs, i won't just stand still and accept defeat, lmao. Of course i'll try to dodge both. But i also recognize that it is harder to dodge both. Especially if they position themselves 90 degrees apart. Crossfire is really hard to dodge because trying to side-to-side one set of bullets makes you walk exactly along the line of the other set of bullets.

Why should I care for their damage? They are already trying to survive my team's bullets (if my team isn't being beaten), now they have to worry about my bolts in a separate damage channel too.

Damage stacking from multiple conventional guns is a bigger problem than dealing with 2 non-stacking damage channels.

As a benefit, I don't even need to worry about my kills being stolen.

????????? Yes you do, in fact Cata will almost never get a kill if there's a teammate nearby, because the teammate can kill in under 1 second, Cata takes ~2.4 seconds to kill

You shouldn't have to force a 1v1. My belief is that weapons should allow you to give you a good chance to deal with any type of crowds, whether they are multiple, or single.

So all weapons should be a Rocket Launcher with a massive splash area if it hits an enemy. Hm. Well i wouldn't be against that, y'know?

I think you would be against that, though. Most people would be against that. And that's reasonable. Ensuring that weapons have a specialization is the only way to save this game from being a boring piece of trash that it is right now.

Cata's specialization is of some support type. It's not deadly, but it can't really be ignored, and it does lock people down. Of course it sucks in certain scenarios. The shotguns suck at long range fights, so should we delete them? The snipers (and especially the Rocket!) suck at multi target damage, so should we delete them? You can't have every weapon be good at everything

And I've already argued with you about its deadlock in 1v1s.

Yes, you've already argued about how it's the most OP thing in 1v1s. Yet at the same time you for some reason argue nobody will want to use it in 1v1s because it sucks.

Pardon my phrasing, but I meant to ask, What pattern indicates that I'm reloading?

The pattern of my previous fights against you, and people like you. Humans are quite predictable, and it wouldn't be too hard to learn when a Cata user prefers to finish the reload in a given situation.

Normally, I don't let that occur. I'll have rattled them with combos, before they can even hit me with a light punch, or even a light kick, if they get that chance. And if I use Akuma by any chance, with Wrath of raging demon, then they are fucked.

So you just completely sidestep the problem, that's funny. Well, that's fitting, i suppose.

And what.....kind of message allows you to tell precisely when I've reloaded?

As i've said, the reload burst should be visible.

And if there is one, that is the chance I cannot manipulate those reading patterns to make you think I have not reloaded yet, when I am just about to finish?

You can manipulate it. I can observe the way you move, and read through my previous experiences, to guess how you will try and manipulate it. Guessing what the opponent plans to do is a major thing of most multiplayer games, so i don't see why you're acting up. In strategy games, for example, the majority of your opponent's decisions are obscured by the fog of war, and while you can scout through some of it, always some of it will have to be guessed.

2 more seconds until I shove another bolt in you, and then begin the reloading game, where I put you in a deadlock.

You completely misunderstood what i was saying, nice. The 2 seconds is the ongoing reload - i.e. the "deadlock".

Thing is, the deadlock goes both ways. Sure, you may have put me in a deadlock - but now you're the one taking the damage from me, and you best hope you can dodge well. Which, considering we're fighting in short range (camping jumpscare, remember?), won't be easy for you.

[ghost]

If i saw you, 90% of your surprise is gone. What i consider a true camping jumpscare, is if i walk by a roof without looking into it (perhaps i'm fighting someone else, perhaps i just forgot) and i get blasted by ??? that i don't even see.

Plus, to see someone under a roof, you need to aim at them. At which point blasting them is quite trivial

If you get the vision of a roof before entering, then yes, the surprise is gone. But the idea is that someone comes in, trying to heal, running away from a fight, and you then jumpscare them.

Okay, so what's the problem then? A weapon that's good against single targets and bad against groups.

The problem is that its ass in pubs. And no, HS strawmans don't work here, because HS deals direct damage, while cata does not

I highly suspect the battledudes discord members won't have enough brain capacity to understand Cata from text

It doesn't matter how much of the "job" is done, what matters is the time. Assuming a 0.2s firerate, it takes 0.4s to stick 3 bolts. You can call it half the job, you can call it 95% of the job, the truth is, it's only 16% of the time needed to kill. (And also note, it assumes 0 misses)

Depends on the reload time, entirely.

It's really not that hard to avoid team fights and stick to 1v1s.

???? It is, now? The entire point of pubs, is to fight with a team....I don't think your enemies will line up to 1v1 you, turn by turn bro.

So don't fight against multiple enemies.

I'm just randomly supposed to expect my enemies to follow that rule? See a cata, and line up to 1v1? You could tell me to avoid multiple enemies, but how do you tell that to the 2 guys hunting me down?

The truth is simple - ARs have higher DPS, which is offset by the fact that they miss most of their shots. But if you're fighting a group of enemies, you're not missing those shots

Which matters in the context of cata because?

The answer is "depends". Depends on the skill of players involved. Again, a good player will trivially dodge Flint shots

A good player will trivially aim flint shots well.

My point is that in any scenario where Cata is involved, switching to a different weapon is a death wish. You are at low HP. I am at full HP. If you switch to a secondary weapon, i have the advantage.

Why so? Why is it a death wish, now? You may very well be at full health, but there really is no guarantee I'm as low as you want me to be, or that my regen hasn't triggered the entire time you have been running around and playing games with me. And again, I may always switch right back to cata, to reload, back to square one.

Now, i get what you're trying and failing to say. You mean the ordinary auto regen. No, i don't think it will have triggered by that time. It takes like 5-7 seconds to start, and that's a long time

It's plenty time for running around, and chasing......

If a weapon is deadlier, it is stronger.

what.....? A deadly weapon is anything that has the potential to cause damage and deadlock an enemy, nearly ensuring their death.. A strong weapon is something that deals a lot of damage. Doesn't essentially ensure death, or definitely not as much as a weapon like cata combined with SMG.

People adapt to their environment. The reason players in this game are so stupid, is because the game doesn't ask them to be smart. If we give them more guns like this - guns that require thinking and strategy - some will leave, some will adapt and get better. In the end the playerbase will be smarter and more skilled.

Eh, fair.

I mean, if i am fighting 2 SMGs, i won't just stand still and accept defeat, lmao. Of course i'll try to dodge both. But i also recognize that it is harder to dodge both. Especially if they position themselves 90 degrees apart. Crossfire is really hard to dodge because trying to side-to-side one set of bullets makes you walk exactly along the line of the other set of bullets.

Why, what a staged scenario.

it's almost as if cover doesn't exist.

I prefer these scenarios, because they are more realistic, because they relate to the features of maps, and show what a potential scenario may be like, where cover actually exists, just like how 80% of fights in a BD map have cover involved.

In this scene, you can try to shoot the cata, only to be killed by the SMG user, within seconds, because SMG only takes 5 shots to kill I believe. That is enough time that you will waste trying to shoot me (the cata user) while my buddy kill you.

What's funny, is that trying to shoot me, is the stupidest thing, because you just ignore the other SMG which is hilarious, because you'll die in 3 seconds, while 5 bullets take away all your life. Even if you do take down the cata with you....death is ensured by the SMG, and vice versa.

I don't deny that 2 SMG users can kill faster, or deal double damage, but I also don't accept the fact that they can't be dodged. The double SMG's can be dodged, possiblly with a placeable wall which is a very common special. The cata + SMG scenario however, puts you in a softlock between trying to survive two different damage channels, which aren't as simple to dodge. That in my definition is more deadly, something that almost ensures your death, despite different damage types.

????????? Yes you do, in fact Cata will almost never get a kill if there's a teammate nearby, because the teammate can kill in under 1 second, Cata takes ~2.4 seconds to kill

Huh. That's interesting. You argue SMG + cata is weak, even though an SMG can kill you much faster than you can kill a cata....

So all weapons should be a Rocket Launcher with a massive splash area if it hits an enemy. Hm. Well i wouldn't be against that, y'know?

I think you would be against that, though. Most people would be against that. And that's reasonable. Ensuring that weapons have a specialization is the only way to save this game from being a boring piece of trash that it is right now.

Cata's specialization is of some support type. It's not deadly, but it can't really be ignored, and it does lock people down. Of course it sucks in certain scenarios. The shotguns suck at long range fights, so should we delete them? The snipers (and especially the Rocket!) suck at multi target damage, so should we delete them? You can't have every weapon be good at everything

A. A crowd control gun, must be a rpg with a massive amount of AOE? Wow. Direct damage exists bro. Anything that can allow me to deal direct damage to anyone, while I face multiple enemies, can help me, because it can allow me to hit deal with my enemies with realistic damage, not damage after 3 shots. B. "Ensuring that weapons have a specialization is the only way to save this game from being a boring piece of trash that it is right now." Tell that to the AR users who happily change between falcon, scar, and AK, M4, like they're different lmfao. We have copycat guns everywhere dude.

The pattern of my previous fights against you, and people like you. Humans are quite predictable, and it wouldn't be too hard to learn when a Cata user prefers to finish the reload in a given situation.

And what ensures I've played with you previously? What ensures that you had the time and scenario to observe, and learn my fighting patterns? While someone fights, I believe they are more focused on trying to defend/attack, rather than actually observe patterns. Again, its the same bd player IQ shit.

So you just completely sidestep the problem, that's funny. Well, that's fitting, i suppose.

It's how streetfighter works pal. There's no indication what my opponent is about to do, so my best bet is to get them in my grasp, before they begin to smash combos at me. Don't get me wrong, I know how to parry, but a simple combo could override my stun bar, and stun me.

As i've said, the reload burst should be visible.

yeah but...thats after the reload finishes? After you've died?

You can manipulate it. I can observe the way you move, and read through my previous experiences, to guess how you will try and manipulate it. Guessing what the opponent plans to do is a major thing of most multiplayer games, so i don't see why you're acting up. In strategy games, for example, the majority of your opponent's decisions are obscured by the fog of war, and while you can scout through some of it, always some of it will have to be guessed.

Bro again, average bd player skill and mindset, is NOT gonna work like that. They focus with what they currently have, rather than what they previously had, and will most likely care about how to react to the current moves...not based on previous moves. Though that may be smarter, it would be incredible to somehow remember a previous fight precisely, learn exactly what you need to learn from it, and effectively use it in battle against a specific player.

Thing is, the deadlock goes both ways. Sure, you may have put me in a deadlock - but now you're the one taking the damage from me, and you best hope you can dodge well. Which, considering we're fighting in short range (camping jumpscare, remember?), won't be easy for you.

Camping jumpscare? I'll run, and start reloading. You chase me, and then I turn around as soon as my reload finishes, and BAM. You're dead.

[deferred-impact]

The problem is that its ass in pubs. And no, HS strawmans don't work here, because HS deals direct damage, while cata does not

I think it's perfectly fair to compare to HS, which indeed does also suck in pubs. I don't see why the method of dealing damage matters so much.

I highly suspect the battledudes discord members won't have enough brain capacity to understand Cata from text

[poll]

Oh wow, what an utterly idiotic poll completely misrepresenting the entire idea. Let's unpack.

"Deals damage less effectively than other guns" - perhaps, i will grant you this much.

"isn't direct" - that is true i guess? But without any actual context, it's literally a meaningless statement. Wtf does "isn't direct" mean? Do the bullets curve around walls? Do they teleport through walls? It's utterly confusing to someone who hasn't opened this suggestion

"can oneshot" - what??? How??? How tf is that a "oneshot"???

"is hard to counter" - no, it's quite easy to counter. Especially if in the open

Depends on the reload time, entirely.

Well i've been assuming a 2 second reload time for the past 5 messages or so, and that's a really short reload time, but even with that, the weapon is still very balanced

???? It is, now? The entire point of pubs, is to fight with a team....I don't think your enemies will line up to 1v1 you, turn by turn bro.

Then force them to. Use grenades or C4s, run away when needed, attack when needed. Picking off enemies one by one is possible and often necessary

And again, if your point is that all fights in pubs are against multiple enemies, we should also get rid of the sniper weapons, then

[ARs are better than snipers against multiple enemies]

Which matters in the context of cata because?

Bruh??? Read the goddamn thread again, and you'll get why i said it

A good player will trivially aim flint shots well.

The entire thing about Flint, at longer ranges, is that no matter how good a shot is aimed, it can and often will be dodged

You may very well be at full health, but there really is no guarantee I'm as low as you want me to be

Of course it's not a guarantee, yes. But statistically it's likely. If you managed to hit me 3 times, i probably hit you about 3 times as well, which leaves you at low HP

A deadly weapon is anything that has the potential to cause damage and deadlock an enemy, nearly ensuring their death.. A strong weapon is something that deals a lot of damage. Doesn't essentially ensure death, or definitely not as much as a weapon like cata combined with SMG.

I wish to meet your drug dealer. You're on some high quality shit

A weapon that "deals a lot of damage", inherently has "the potential to cause damage" (literally) and it can "deadlock the enemy" (by killing them and placing them in the respawn screen). So i remain confused as to how a weapon can be deadly but weak, or even more importantly, strong but non-deadly.

Why, what a staged scenario.

> complains about a staged scenario > immediately stages an even more contrived scenario

In this scene, you can try to shoot the cata, only to be killed by the SMG user, within seconds, because SMG only takes 5 shots to kill I believe. That is enough time that you will waste trying to shoot me (the cata user) while my buddy kill you.

I can dodge the SMG (or personally, i'd throw a C4 at them here) and prioritize dealing damage to the Cata

The situation you drew is literally still worse if both players are using SMG

I don't deny that 2 SMG users can kill faster, or deal double damage, but I also don't accept the fact that they can't be dodged. The double SMG's can be dodged, possiblly with a placeable wall which is a very common special.

Bro WHAT are you talking about? If 2 SMGs can be dodged, then a single SMG is twice as easy to dodge. If that is the case, then your Cata + SMG example is easier. All i have to do is dodge the SMG and focus on the Cata

The cata + SMG scenario however, puts you in a softlock between trying to survive two different damage channels, which aren't as simple to dodge. That in my definition is more deadly, something that almost ensures your death, despite different damage types.

I don't need to dodge Cata if i can kill it

Doesn't ensure my death if i can kill it first

even though an SMG can kill you much faster than you can kill a cata....

Wait, why is that the case??? Imagine i am also using an SMG in this scenario. The time it takes for me to kill Cata is by definition exactly the same as the time it takes for the other SMG to kill me. What am i missing here??

Wow. Direct damage exists bro. Anything that can allow me to deal direct damage to anyone, while I face multiple enemies, can help me, because it can allow me to hit deal with my enemies with realistic damage, not damage after 3 shots.

Yeah but if you complain about Cata "not being good enough" against groups of enemies, you should also complain about every weapon that doesn't have AOE splash, since it's also not good enough. Splash damage is the ultimate solution against groups

"Ensuring that weapons have a specialization is the only way to save this game from being a boring piece of trash that it is right now." Tell that to the AR users who happily change between falcon, scar, and AK, M4, like they're different lmfao. We have copycat guns everywhere dude.

The same people who are unironically voting for tank battle now, yes. Let's listen to them and follow their opinions as to what this game should become, yes.

And what ensures I've played with you previously? What ensures that you had the time and scenario to observe, and learn my fighting patterns?

You are not that special. Other players exist and behave in similar ways. I don't need to have played exactly against you, to be able to reason about how you'll play.

While someone fights, I believe they are more focused on trying to defend/attack, rather than actually observe patterns. Again, its the same bd player IQ shit.

My point remains - players adapt to the game

yeah but...thats after the reload finishes? After you've died?

Or after it hit a wall and didn't deal any damage to me. The perfect signal for me to rush you and delete you.

Bro again, average bd player skill and mindset, is NOT gonna work like that. They focus with what they currently have, rather than what they previously had, and will most likely care about how to react to the current moves...not based on previous moves. Though that may be smarter, it would be incredible to somehow remember a previous fight precisely, learn exactly what you need to learn from it, and effectively use it in battle against a specific player.

Not all of them are brainless amoeba, dude. They'll learn

Camping jumpscare? I'll run, and start reloading. You chase me, and then I turn around as soon as my reload finishes, and BAM. You're dead.

You for some reason act as if you staying out of my line of sight is somehow easy and trivial (while you are running away) but when i have to try and stay out of your line of sight, it's really hard (when you finish reloading). Why is it so asymmetrical, exactly?

[ghost]

I think it's perfectly fair to compare to HS, which indeed does also suck in pubs. I don't see why the method of dealing damage matters so much.

You yourself complain to me that the damage channel matters so much when we talk about SMG and cata, but not here? The whole thing about cata is that it doesn't deal damage directly....

Oh wow, what an utterly idiotic poll completely misrepresenting the entire idea. Let's unpack.

"Deals damage less effectively than other guns" - perhaps, i will grant you this much.

"isn't direct" - that is true i guess? But without any actual context, it's literally a meaningless statement. Wtf does "isn't direct" mean? Do the bullets curve around walls? Do they teleport through walls? It's utterly confusing to someone who hasn't opened this suggestion

"can oneshot" - what??? How??? How tf is that a "oneshot"???

"is hard to counter" - no, it's quite easy to counter. Especially if in the open

Alright, instead of me wasting time arguing with you about what is correct and what is not, why don't we have you decide a poll description, and I'll post it.

Well i've been assuming a 2 second reload time for the past 5 messages or so, and that's a really short reload time, but even with that, the weapon is still very balanced

Yeah, I'd say 2 seconds is relatively fast in the real world, but again, this is a faced paced shooter game, so I'll concede to that.

Then force them to. Use grenades or C4s, run away when needed, attack when needed. Picking off enemies one by one is possible and often necessary

I try to pick them off, while they simply hunt me. To them, I'm just another free kill, because it's a literal 4v1, where if one dies, that buys enough time for the others to attack me. Simply trying to shoot them off is difficult, because they can literally shoot back, but with 4 times as many bullets. And of course, my bullets don't even deal direct damage.

Bruh??? Read the goddamn thread again, and you'll get why i said it

Reading the thread gets tiring, you know.

No, my original point still exists. I'm talking about cata not dealing direct damage, not AR's being good at dealing with multiple enemies. Even if you wanna compare other snipers, to catalysts, or even ARs for that matter, they have a crucial difference, and the difference is that it doesn't deal direct damage through its shots.

The entire thing about Flint, at longer ranges, is that no matter how good a shot is aimed, it can and often will be dodged

Long range? You're trying to cook a grenade which makes you within my range, and also slow. I think that's a perfect opportunity for a flint, chief.

Of course it's not a guarantee, yes. But statistically it's likely. If you managed to hit me 3 times, i probably hit you about 3 times as well, which leaves you at low HP

Depends on what weapon you have. I don't think 3 P50 shots would be very harmful.

I wish to meet your drug dealer. You're on some high quality shit

With a supplier like you, shit will always be high quality.

A weapon that "deals a lot of damage", inherently has "the potential to cause damage" (literally) and it can "deadlock the enemy" (by killing them and placing them in the respawn screen). So i remain confused as to how a weapon can be deadly but weak, or even more importantly, strong but non-deadly.

I remain confused as to when you sold your brain in the black market, chief.

I'll go through this again. I have a catalyst, and my teammate has a SMG. You come across me first, where I manage to hit you with 3 shots. At this time, my teammate appears, and now you face both of us. I take cover, and start to reload. He starts firing at you. Now, assuming that the reload is 2 seconds, as you have been using in the previous scenarios, How do you manage to kill the both of us? Remember, he needs to hit you with just 5 shots, and I just need to reload. I might be low on health, but I can run, while he's literally chasing you.

You kill him, 2 seconds are over. You chase me, he kills you. Quite deadly.

Now, let's say we have the same scenario. This time, I have an SMG, just like my teammate. We appear before you, and just the way I had cover (as a catalyst), you have cover to dodge as well. Now they both try to shoot you, and you may simply run by holding melee, and dodge them, because they are stacking damage. Pretty strong in terms of damage those guns are, but if they can't kill, then they are nothing but useless and non-deadly guns in this scenario.

complains about a staged scenario immediately stages an even more contrived scenario

Contrived? Need I remind you, Cover exists, in every single map? Someone using the map's geographical features to their advantage is much more likely than them taking their chances in an open area, especially seeing who they're up against. So I'm puzzled as to how that's contrived.

I can dodge the SMG (or personally, i'd throw a C4 at them here) and prioritize dealing damage to the Cata

😂 Dude you really know how to be a comedian.

You try to "dodge" the SMG = You avoid the SMG, but the cata remains an issue, and will finish their reload in 2 seconds. And I hope you realize, they can dodge you too.

You try to c4 the SMG (even worse) =

A. 5 bullets are fast, you'll be dead before you throw it. Trust me I've been in that scenario multiple times, throwing a c4 faster is nearly impossible. B. You manage to throw and detonate it before you die, at that close range, the c4 damage will kill you. And even if you don't die, those 2 seconds are still ticking on the clock.

Bro WHAT are you talking about? If 2 SMGs can be dodged, then a single SMG is twice as easy to dodge. If that is the case, then your Cata + SMG example is easier. All i have to do is dodge the SMG and focus on the Cata

Well yeah...but the cata isn't just gonna like...stand there bro... Neither is the SMG....

I don't need to dodge Cata if i can kill it

Doesn't ensure my death if i can kill it first

Good luck doing that with an SMG on your ass. Even if you do kill the cata, SMG is still ready to kill you.

Wait, why is that the case??? Imagine i am also using an SMG in this scenario. The time it takes for me to kill Cata is by definition exactly the same as the time it takes for the other SMG to kill me. What am i missing here??

The fact that the cata is dodging you, and that the SMG is shooting you?

Yeah but if you complain about Cata "not being good enough" against groups of enemies, you should also complain about every weapon that doesn't have AOE splash, since it's also not good enough. Splash damage is the ultimate solution against groups

Why so? ARs don't have splash damage? How are they so good with crowd control?

The same people who are unironically voting for tank battle now, yes. Let's listen to them and follow their opinions as to what this game should become, yes.

Hey I'm all for getting rid of the copypasta guns and tank battle bro, it's not in my control though.

You are not that special. Other players exist and behave in similar ways. I don't need to have played exactly against you, to be able to reason about how you'll play.

What..the fuck? Players must have a similar playstyle? I simply can't have a moving pattern that's different?

Or after it hit a wall and didn't deal any damage to me. The perfect signal for me to rush you and delete you.

Theres another shot that hits you after you reload? Doesn't that make it..a 5 shot???

Not all of them are brainless amoeba, dude. They'll learn

Sure, have as much faith as you wanna have in a bunch of 14 year olds playing a shooter game.

You for some reason act as if you staying out of my line of sight is somehow easy and trivial (while you are running away) but when i have to try and stay out of your line of sight, it's really hard (when you finish reloading). Why is it so asymmetrical, exactly?

What?

A. You are chasing me, so I'm staying out of your line of sight, so that you can't shoot me. B. I'm also reloading, and you don't have an idea of when precisely its gonna end. C. I can turn around instantly, knowing that you're chasing me, when my reload ends, and kill you as soon as you come into my line of sight.

So like, what's your point?