IIDX 27 LDJ 120hz turntable deadzone #68

Open icex2 opened 3 years ago

In GitLab by @Basein2 on Dec 6, 2020, 02:25

Summary

When 120hz is enabled on LDJ mode of IIDX 27, on some IO boards the turntable has a large deadzone. This includes some DAO controllers and official cabinets with C02 / d01 / IO2 (and possibly bio2). issue is only present when 120hz is enabled. Issue is not present with 60hz

Expected behavior

Turntable should be equally sensitive on 120hz and 60hz

Current behavior

Turntable sensitivity is halved when using 120hz on LDJ mode. I haven't / can't test TDJ mode.

Detailed Description

Steps to reproduce

enable 120hz patch with 120hz monitor
use stock dao controller pcb or official cabinet with IO shim

Possible solution

Context (Environment)

Bemanitools version(s) affected

btools 5.33 affected

Game(s) and version(s) affected

IIDX 27, LDJ mode with 120hz enabled.

Log output

See attachment.

Configuration files

See attachment.

Command line arguments

I personally usea d01 cabinet. I've loaded the game with the btools supplemental files and btools 5.33. using ezusb_v1.bin and fpga_d01. I have also tried running with fx2loader, same issue.

APIs used

OS version

Both windows 7 64bit and windows 10 64bit

Hardware specs

CPU:
RAM:
GPU:
Controllers/IO: <d01 IOiidxhook-27.conf>

I don't really have any knowledge on how 120hz mode works and what the implications regarding IO responsiveness. As this "feeling of larger deadzone" is subjective, do you know of other people who also reported/confirmed?

Also, what kind of 120hz mode are you referring to? Official and full TDJ mode or just the 120hz patch (without touch screen)?

Just a shot in the dark, but I would assume that the 120hz custom patch might not be perfect, yet.

@xyen

In GitLab by @Basein2 on Dec 6, 2020, 20:00

There’s a lot of cases on the iidx 27 hdd thread on sows, mostly people with controllers. I know another cab owner with c02 IO that has the same issue.

I don’t have the ability to try with TDJ mode (no touch screen)

Now, I don’t have a technical background, but my understanding is when you move your turntable position (let’s say it moves +1) the game will then read that you moved it and will register a scratch. However on 120hz it expects a reading of +2 before triggering anything, hence the larger deadzone. Which leads me to believe this could either be fixed in a firmware patch to double all turntable inputs, or an edit to how the game reads turntable inputs.

I suspect the reason we are having an issue with it is because this is built into the IO of lightning cabs and we just didn’t know about it because...we don’t have access to it.

I don’t have the ability to try with TDJ mode (no touch screen)

Do you happen to know anyone who could do that? An answer to that might be quite helpful in narrowing this down further.

Now, I don’t have a technical background, but my understanding is when you move your turntable position (let’s say it moves +1) the game will then read that you moved it and will register a scratch. However on 120hz it expects a reading of +2 before triggering anything, hence the larger deadzone.

I don't know how the game interprets and translates any of these values but I would not straight out guess that it needs exactly a delta value of 1 on 60hz or a delta 2 on 120hz.

Which leads me to believe this could either be fixed in a firmware patch to double all turntable inputs, or an edit to how the game reads turntable inputs.

Modifying the firmware is not an easy task and I don't know if this actually achieves what you want. I would rather suggest the latter part and have a look at how the game processes the turntable data before jumping into high effort tasks.

I suspect the reason we are having an issue with it is because this is built into the IO of lightning cabs and we just didn’t know about it because...we don’t have access to it.

Not sure if we even need real hardware here. Again, I think the first thing to look into is actually trying to understand how the game processes the turntable inputs and if there is even a difference for 60hz or 120hz.

In GitLab by @Basein2 on Dec 7, 2020, 01:30

I figured firmware would be too difficult to implement. My understanding of the turntable functionality is very basic, and it probably isn’t as simple as 1 - 60hz vs 2 120hz. I’ll let the team figure that out.

I have a friend with a TDJ setup. I’ll ask them to run some tests using btools 5.33 and their stock DAO pcb.

I’ll get them to run:

IIDX 26: 60hz IIDX 27: 60hz IIDX 27: LDJ 120hz IIDX 27: TDJ 120hz

In GitLab by @xyen on Dec 7, 2020, 01:35

It works fine on my end in both TDJ and LDJ 120, that being said, LDJ 120 is a hack, and may not work in all cases (same with the way TDJ is implemented in other tools with the vtable swap).

I tested with both keyboard (which reduces the input down to simply +/- 1 per polling tick) and a controller.

That being said, if adding a multiplier to the turntable input works, I can consider it if it is indeed happening on all setups.

In GitLab by @Basein2 on Dec 7, 2020, 02:02

Can you confirm what controller and PCB you are using xyen? I know arcin boards and phoenixwan controllers aren’t affected (not sure about official Konami). I’ve seen people have problems with stock fp7 boards and RED boards. (Check the sows iidx27 hdd thread)

Another possibility is maybe it does affect more people, but some have looser turntables than others and notice it less? Yet to confirm, just speculation. My d01 cabinet turntable is relatively stiff, but again, I would’ve had 0 issues on 60hz.

I’ll get my friend to test loosening his turntable also while playing 120hz LDJ / TDJ.

Thank you everyone for the replies so far also! Very appreciated!

Thanks for following up with all the details.

In general, I think this might be difficult to track down if we can't get any non subjective measurements or if we spot something that definitely looks incorrect and might be causing this. I have been playing the game on my cabinet with a C02 board but only in 60hz mode since my monitor doesn't support 120hz. Everything felt just fine so far. There are quite a few factors as you pointed out that need to be considered:

Human factor, probably nobody as an absolute reference to compare their "non perfect" setup to
Hardware: Turntable stiffness/friction as well as whatever IO board they are using
Software: Firmware of the IO board and how it reads/translates turntable movement
Software 2: How the data from the IO board is processed in bemanitools. Depending on the accuracy of the data provided by the firmware, this might also have different effects that are difficult to predict.

I don't really see a lot of options for us to help you or anyone else affect out here. I don't have a setup I can test and try to reproduce this on.

@xyen's approach might be worth a try since I suppose that it's not too difficult to implement and let others give it a try.

In GitLab by @Basein2 on Dec 8, 2020, 01:18

Hi. My friend with a TDJ setup is yet to preform the tests I asked. Sorry!

But, I’ve gotten quite a few testimonials from players using a variety of controllers. Some with arcin report having issues until they increased the sensitivity by 2x. Most dao fp7/FPS players with a LDJ/TDJ setup have reported their turntables as being very under sensitive and often miss scratches they wouldn’t otherwise. I have another from a cabinet player with c02 and myself with d01.

I’m starting to think a factor could be the resistance of the turntable itself, since putting the same effort into your scratches would make your turntable spin faster and for a greater distance. That would explain why some setups are affected differently.

It’s not really an optimal solution to do that though, I think. More of a work around.

In GitLab by @xyen on Dec 11, 2020, 16:11

!65 should help, but does NOT fully address the issue.

We'll be keeping this issue open until a proper fix can be found.

The core of the issue is that when running in 120hz, the game expects not just 2x the values, but 2x the "resolution" in the ticks. Simply multiplying the input data doesn't solve the issue of certain controller / cabinet IO boards simply having too wide of a gap between teeth on the TT grooves.

In GitLab by @HAYU on Oct 31, 2021, 19:50

I ran in C02, IO2 cab with LDJ 120Hz, TDJ Mode and went through the same thing. This continues in bistrover. in IO CHECK, the turntable 0-255 constant goes up normally (72/lap). There are also symptoms of slow scrolling in the music select. Adjusting the turntable multiplier 2x by twice rather causes other problems. Recognize the turntable several times when it starts or stops.

In GitLab by @xyen on Oct 31, 2021, 23:20

Yeah, there's not much that can be done without writing an interpolation algorithm, but given 120hz is kinda a hack, and the game expects a higher resolution turntable response in 120, I'm not sure if there's anything that can really be done here as the information simply isn't there.

72/lap is not the normal / expected value for lightning model cabs, 144 is.

In GitLab by @HAYU on Nov 1, 2021, 03:35

Does the real lightning cab go up 144/lap? oh my.... When using LDJ cab in real arcade, it was confirmed that 72 moved in one lap and that the number of teeth was the same in lighting cab manual, so I was estimated to be 72. Increasing the number of teeth to 144 seems to be the only way.

In GitLab by @xyen on Nov 1, 2021, 09:42

Yes, I had a tech verify this a while back on an actual lightning cab. My assumption is the new IO reads on both signal edges, instead of only on rising (or falling).

djhackersdev / bemanitools