Add "Mold risk" and "Days to mold" sensors (enhancement)

[robertolamm]

Hello, at first thanks for this awesome integration.

Would be fantastic to have also the "mold risk" and "Days to mold" sensors (I am looking at http://www.dpcalc.org/ )

This should permit to automate the dehumidification loops.

Thx Roberto

[rautesamtr]

Hi,

adding preservation metrics sounds usefull. It looks like http://www.dpcalc.org/ code isn't under an open licence so we can't directly reimplement it in python, but since all functions are visible in dp.js it should give enough hints what to look for.

Whats important are their lookup tables for the PI and the EMC value. The "Days to mold" uses the PI table as well. We have to check what they are based on and if we can get an open/libre source for them or a formula to calculate or generate them.

[robertolamm]

Hi, yes I think will be a great implementation, not present in any other HA integration. I am available to help if necessary, even if I am not a python programmer :) Let me know if I can be useful for any task.

Edit: I found the following docs and, if I am not wrong, the tables seems to be in the dp.js file :)

_http://dpcalc.org/dp.js https://s3.cad.rit.edu/ipi-assets/publications/understanding_preservation_metrics.pdf_

[robertolamm]

Hi @rautesamtr, I have seen the dp.js from dpcalc.org and I created a template that use the pitable array to define the days needed to create mold , given the Temperature in Celsius and the Humidity in %.

Hope can be useful :) keep in touch

The script is attached here:
daysToMold sensor.txt

[rautesamtr]

@robertolamm sorry i haven't forgotten this. I'd just like to first finish the config additions (#84 & #86 ) before working on any new sensors. Great work with the template. I am just a bit unsure regarding legal terms of using the code in this project. For private use trough template it should be fine. Do you have an idea if the PI values in the table could be replaced with a calculation? Or have an source with clear licence regarding the content?

[robertolamm]

Hello, Unfortunately I've only read the internal code of dp.js and copied the array of the values to obtain the days to mold.

I am not informed about licenses, but I can try to take a look into the matter.

[robertolamm]

Hi Again, @rautesamtr looking in the www I've seen that some sites are using the tables, they write credits to the "Image Permanence Institute at Rochester Institute of Technology" as provider of the data. So, I think can be enough to write this in a kind of disclaimer. However I think they can be contacted to confirm us this.

Here the contacts:

Rochester Institute of Technology/IPI 70 Lomb Memorial Drive, GAN-2000 Rochester, NY 14623-5604 Phone: (585) 475-5199 ipiwww@rit.edu

[dolezsa]

I wrote them

[dolezsa]

here is their answer:

Hi Anton,

Thank you for your interest in IPI’s Preservation Metrics®. Our web-based software and web application resources are developed specifically for the preservation field, and are unique resources created by IPI. We would be happy to provide more information about how these metrics can and should be used to guide collections preservation planning, but we do not share proprietary information about how our software and other web-based resources function.

IPI’s Preservation Metrics were developed to assist collection stewards in libraries, archives and museums with evaluating the preservation quality and potential for preservation risks associated with environmental conditions, specifically temperature and relative humidity levels. They serve as guides while interpreting environmental data and making decisions related to preservation environmental management programs.

We have a publication about Understanding Preservation Metrics: https://s3.cad.rit.edu/ipi-assets/publications/understanding_preservation_metrics.pdf

Additional information is available at: https://www.eclimatenotebook.com/fundamentals_nl.php

If you have any further questions, please let me know. 

Thanks,

Lauren

my request/question was:

Since we did not find any mention of licensing, I would like to ask you for permission for usage of data / algorithms obtained by analyzing Your project.

how do you interpret that?

[robertolamm]

Wow, I am not an advocate but my personal interpretation, consider also that I am Italian so my English cannot be so enhanced, is that is possible to use the data but they will not share the code of the programs, but I think they are agree for the use in the project of parts or information derived by their environ.

Just my 2cents.

Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 25 gen 2022, alle ore 16:06, dolezsa @.***> ha scritto:

 here is their answer:

Hi Anton,

Thank you for your interest in IPI’s Preservation Metrics®. Our web-based software and web application resources are developed specifically for the preservation field, and are unique resources created by IPI. We would be happy to provide more information about how these metrics can and should be used to guide collections preservation planning, but we do not share proprietary information about how our software and other web-based resources function.

IPI’s Preservation Metrics were developed to assist collection stewards in libraries, archives and museums with evaluating the preservation quality and potential for preservation risks associated with environmental conditions, specifically temperature and relative humidity levels. They serve as guides while interpreting environmental data and making decisions related to preservation environmental management programs.

We have a publication about Understanding Preservation Metrics: https://s3.cad.rit.edu/ipi-assets/publications/understanding_preservation_metrics.pdf

Additional information is available at: https://www.eclimatenotebook.com/fundamentals_nl.php

If you have any further questions, please let me know.

Thanks,

Lauren my request/question was:

Since we did not find any mention of licensing, I would like to ask you for permission for usage of data / algorithms obtained by analyzing Your project. how do you interpret that?

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

[lymanepp]

HA includes a related integration - https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/mold_indicator/

[rautesamtr]

how do you interpret that?

but we do not share proprietary information about how our software and other web-based resources function.

Sounds to me that their software implementation is proprietary and normal copyright also applies to the javascript used. But it feels like their answer is deliberately unclear.

My assumption is still that unless we get access to freely available information that let us in theory reimplement the algorithms, copying their code will always be a case of copyright infringement. On the other hand we don't know if their legal team would notice or even go after a small open source project.

HA includes a related integration - https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/mold_indicator/

That one uses a different approach and can only be used if you provide an additional outside temperature. We could add an optional outside_temperature_sensor config option and enable the mold_indicator only if that one is set. If we want to port this one over.

[robertolamm]

I realized this in a template, using the PI table and RH/Temp sensors.

But this is for my personal use, I think this implementation in the integration would be great. I think can be useful to ask directly the permission to use the "data tables" . The algorithm is simple >65% or <2% is always "no risk", in the other cases the risk is in one array that contains the "days to mold".

I have seen https://energyhandyman.com/knowledge-library/mold-chart-for-temperature-and-humidity-monitors , they use the table and talk about the dpcalc.org site.......

[lymanepp]

I found that equations exist for calculating mold growth from temperature and humidity:

• https://web.ornl.gov/sci/buildings/2016/docs/presentations/workshops/workshop-5/Workshop5_OjananViitanen.pdf (overview)
• https://web.ornl.gov/sci/buildings/2016/docs/presentations/workshops/workshop-5/Workshop5_OjanenViitanen_Eqs.pdf (equations)

Analysis of the VTT equations above:

• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132321009756

[bj00rn]

Hi!

There is also a model called Mould Resistive Design which might be easier to implement given the copyright issues.

The model was developed for wood frame systems, but it should probably suffice for general use.

http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?dswid=-9421&faces-redirect=true&aq2=%5B%5B%5D%5D&af=%5B%5D&searchType=SIMPLE&sortOrder2=title_sort_asc&language=sv&pid=diva2%3A825337&aq=%5B%5B%5D%5D&sf=all&aqe=%5B%5D&sortOrder=author_sort_asc&onlyFullText=false&noOfRows=50

[THX2112]

Just adding my two cents. I think this would be a great feature.

I don't think the number of days until mold is very useful (or accurate), but a "mold-risk" flag or some sort of graduated severity rating would be very useful and easy to calculate from just humidity (relative or absolute) and temperature.

I have an immediate use-case where a ventilation fan would turn on in a storage room if a "mold-risk" flag was activated.

"Corrosion-risk" would also be useful to flag.

[bj00rn]

http://www.ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2011/P_1627.pdf

[kongjudas]

"Corrosion-risk" would also be useful to flag.

Doubling that. If at all possible, it would be a great one in the garage. I don't know how good this dew point sensor is vs. the official mold sensor integration, but I'll give it a try and see. Thanks for the effort!

[flaektrem]

Exactly what im looking for. This would be great

[gpongelli]

Hi, is this enhancement planned to be implemented in some way ?

[bensebborn]

+1

[johndfoss]

Is this still being worked on? It would be lovely to have this added to the integration! Thanks for the great work!

[bj00rn]

Another integration has done some work on this https://github.com/Strixx76/mold_risk_index

Relevant calculations are here https://github.com/Strixx76/mold_risk_index/blob/51dd03e5223dd5fa2ff262d5804defeb10cf42cd/custom_components/mold_risk_index/sensor.py#L170

[Sygnus83]

👍 +1

[nimdaxxx]

Another integration has done some work on this https://github.com/Strixx76/mold_risk_index

Relevant calculations are here https://github.com/Strixx76/mold_risk_index/blob/51dd03e5223dd5fa2ff262d5804defeb10cf42cd/custom_components/mold_risk_index/sensor.py#L170

It's not the same thing, in fact, the author writes:

"For spaces that are heated and where the risk of mold is close to cold surfaces (like in a bathroom) you should use the "Mold Indicator". The formulas for the "Mold Risk Index” is inspired by a forum thread in a Swedish house building forum at byggahus.se. Which in turn are originating (among others) from a publication by Hannu Viitanen named "Factors affecting mould growth on kiln dried wood". Search the net and you will find the publication"

[noelmakubi]

👍

[bj00rn]

Another integration has done some work on this https://github.com/Strixx76/mold_risk_index Relevant calculations are here https://github.com/Strixx76/mold_risk_index/blob/51dd03e5223dd5fa2ff262d5804defeb10cf42cd/custom_components/mold_risk_index/sensor.py#L170

It's not the same thing, in fact, the author writes:

"For spaces that are heated and where the risk of mold is close to cold surfaces (like in a bathroom) you should use the "Mold Indicator". The formulas for the "Mold Risk Index” is inspired by a forum thread in a Swedish house building forum at byggahus.se. Which in turn are originating (among others) from a publication by Hannu Viitanen named "Factors affecting mould growth on kiln dried wood". Search the net and you will find the publication"

The integration I linked to deduces mold risk from relative humidity and temperature much the same way as dpcalc. The calculated index is different though and developed for kiln wood.