Where is the Microsoft VB Development Team?

[WolvenRA]

Who are the MS VB Development Team members? How many are there? Why aren't we hearing anything from them? How are we supposed to have a "community" when there's virtually no interaction from the leaders of the community?

I realize MS employees are busy but someone needs to mind the store. And if they are all THAT busy, then MS should hire some people whose primary job is to interface with the community and make sure the Development Team spends at least some time interacting with the community.

I'm sure MS uses the lack of activity in this github repository as evidence that there aren't many VB.Net programmers (or many that care) since there aren't many members\contributors here. But I would strongly suggest that the lack of participation here is mainly because 99% of VB.Net programmers probably aren't even aware this "community" exists...

And 99% of the 1% that did stumble across it didn't stay very long when the only responses they got were "That would require approval\work from the Roslyn team", "That would require approval\work from the ASP team", "That would require approval\work from the (pick your name) team", "That would require too much work and we're all too busy doing... whatever", "That won't work because..." or "We'll look into that" and then never hear anything.

As I said elsewhere, I suspect most VB.Net programmers are Business Application programmers rather than System Level programmers and consequently don't feel they can contribute on that level and\or don't have the time (or interest) to learn System Level programming. I'm absolutely positive that they damn sure care about the language and it's evolution but aren't aware that the future of the language is becoming dependent on them. It's hard enough to keep up with our day jobs and write our applications without having to take time to write the entire language development system as well. :)

[Hamenopi]

Let me know if they're hiring. I'd love to get paid for continuously geeking out about VB. Actually, I kinda already go that.

On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 12:31 PM WolvenRA notifications@github.com wrote:

Who are the MS VB Development Team members? How many are there? Why aren't we hearing anything from them? How are we supposed to have a "community" when there's virtually no interaction from the leaders of the community?

I realize MS employees are busy but someone needs to mind the store. And if they are all THAT busy, then MS should hire some people whose primary job is to interface with the community and make sure the Development Team spends at least some time interacting with the community.

I'm sure MS uses the lack of activity in this github repository as evidence that there aren't many VB.Net programmers (or many that care) since there aren't many members\contributors here. But I would strongly suggest that the lack of participation here is mainly because 99% of VB.Net programmers probably aren't even aware this "community" exists...

And 99% of the 1% that did stumble across it didn't stay very long when the only responses they got were "That would require approval\work from the Roslyn team", "That would require approval\work from the ASP team", "That would require approval\work from the (pick your name) team", "That would require too much work and we're all too busy doing... whatever", "That won't work because..." or "We'll look into that" and then never hear anything.

As I said elsewhere, I suspect most VB.Net programmers are Business Application programmers rather than System Level programmers and consequently don't feel they can contribute on that level and\or don't have the time (or interest) to learn System Level programming. I'm absolutely positive that they damn sure care about the language and it's evolution but aren't aware that the future of the language is becoming dependent on them. It's hard enough to keep up with our day jobs and write our applications without having to take time to write the entire language development system as well. :)

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[tverweij]

This question has been asked before - without any results. Nobody would reveal itself - making me think there is no team.

[tverweij]

I want to add one thing: as the previous 2 threads did not get any attention from any MS employee, it looks like they don't even care ...

[tverweij]

And I just found the answer about the commitment to Visual Basic. Anthony D Green made some prototypes for top level code in VB. See: https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/04/23/top-level-code-scenario-a/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/04/24/top-level-code-scenario-b/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/04/30/top-level-code-scenario-c/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/05/03/top-level-code-scenario-d/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/05/23/top-level-code-scenario-e/

And they might incorporate this in ……….. C# and not VB, see https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/blob/master/meetings/2020/LDM-2020-01-22.md

[WolvenRA]

Yes... The silence from MS is deafening. Instead of trying to quietly deprecate VB.Net, MS should have a major marketing and educating campaign to inform; new programmers, current programmers, schools, and businesses about the many benefits of VB.Net and the fact that VB.Net is every bit as powerful, capable and performant as C#. In fact, they should have been doing this since launching .Net.

[VBAndCs]

Not only they are taking proposed features from VB to C#, but worst Anthony D Green's title is now a former VB.MET PM! They are literally shutting down VB.NET!!

[gafter]

@KathleenDollard Is the VB PM. @AnthonyDGreen is the VB PM Emeritus.

[WolvenRA]

I'm not sure Anthony even works for Microsoft anymore.

[tverweij]

No, he doesn't

[ericmutta]

@WolvenRA And 99% of the 1% that did stumble across it didn't stay very long when the only responses they got were...

That's the part that killed it for me personally. Hearing "no" to everything and "yes" to nothing (even stuff from @AnthonyDGreen that is well researched and prototyped).

Back when @AnthonyDGreen was running things, we had very active discussions here and I believe the reason was that @AnthonyDGreen actively engaged in those discussions with overwhelming detail. You felt the energy and passion and it kept us all talking and experimenting with ideas even though they may never get implemented. We really need that spirit back!

[zspitz]

@ericmutta

Hearing "no" to everything and "yes" to nothing

From the discussions I've read on this repo, there are two features the language design team would like very much to bring to VB:

1. pattern matching, and
2. distinguishing between nullable and non-nullable reference types

I theorize that both of these features are of interest to the LDT, because both features provide value across a wide spectrum of use cases and programmer experience levels, and much of the groundbreaking work has already been done for both of these in C#.

New features like Unchecked for VB provide far less bang for the buck -- the number of times when Unchecked would have been useful for me over the last 10 years can be counted on one hand. You might argue that that is because I've been writing pretty much standard LOB apps; but I would answer that because the VB user base is an order of magnitude smaller than the C# user base, and the difference in community is greater even by proportion, the VB language team has to choose their battles very carefully.

[tverweij]

Hearing "no" to everything and "yes" to nothing

I wish that was true. We don't even hear "no".

[tverweij]

hat because the VB user base is an order of magnitude smaller than the C# user base

And the F# userbase is an order of magnitude smaller than the VB user base. And on FSharpLang, there is normal activity and discussion, also from Microsoft employees - and there are things that are just implemented.

So the size of the user base is clearly not the problem.

[zspitz]

@tverweij I get the feeling that the F# userbase while smaller, is far more energetic and passionate about F#, than the LOB-centric VB userbase, Also, F# was written from day one as open source; that might also be a contributing factor.

[tverweij]

@zspitz It used to be energetic and passionated here. But we are getting disillusioned by lack of any attention. We are just calling in the dark - there seems to be no one there that is listening to us.

[ericmutta]

@zspitz ...there are two features the language design team would like very much to bring to VB:

I would be really happy to see any new features added to VB at this point...or at least clearer communication from the LDT on what's coming down the pipeline (if anything!).

Like @tverweij said this place used to be energetic and passionate. Then it went quiet. Like really really quiet. In a seperate conversation @KathleenDollard thought it an odd conversation to talk about whether or not she loves VB...and here we are months later seeing that it is not an odd conversation at all. If there's no love from the top for the technology, eventually we get the ghost town that this repo has become.

But it doesn't have to be this way! @AnthonyDGreen showed us what passion for VB looks like. We need more of that from the LDT :+1:

[AdamSpeight2008]

@zspitz Can we have Implicit Default Optional Parameters please? They claimed it should be a relatively simple change to the binder (to me it wasn't). If it it so small a change then implement it.

[ocdtrekkie]

As a spectator, I kinda feel like every time people "show passion for VB", it's pitching a fit about why it's not a bigger priority for Microsoft. I feel like a "VB is abandoned!" issue is filed here every six months or so.

Meanwhile, I don't feel like the VB language is at all where Microsoft is languishing: We need a cross-platform desktop framework that works with Linux. I also wouldn't mind if the "Windows service" project template was replaced by a .NET Core template that could run on either OS, which should be a trivial change comparatively. And neither of those are really "VB language needed" items, AFAICT, but would significantly improve the versatility of using Visual Basic in the modern world.

[aarondglover]

As a spectator, I kinda feel like every time people "show passion for VB", it's pitching a fit about why it's not a bigger priority for Microsoft. I feel like a "VB is abandoned!" issue is filed here every six months or so.

Meanwhile, I don't feel like the VB language is at all where Microsoft is languishing: We need a cross-platform desktop framework that works with Linux. I also wouldn't mind if the "Windows service" project template was replaced by a .NET Core template that could run on either OS, which should be a trivial change comparatively. And neither of those are really "VB language needed" items, AFAICT, but would significantly improve the versatility of using Visual Basic in the modern world.

I can feel just about certain that should such a cross-platform desktop framework (which it won't) ever become a thing in any foreseeable future in .NET that VB would NOT be included.

Perhaps you should consider Electron?

[ocdtrekkie]

@aarondglover If Microsoft were truly a force for good, it would take it's new ownership of GitHub as an opportunity to nuke Electron from orbit.

[tverweij]

@ocdtrekkie: ???

[ocdtrekkie]

@tverweij "Let's dump an entire Google-built web browser in your executable so you can write your UI in JavaScript" is a crime against nature and humanity. It's certainly not a good alternative for a proper cross-platform desktop development framework.

[tverweij]

Ok - understood :-)

[tverweij]

But it might be the only thing that really works ...

[bandleader]

And I just found the answer about the commitment to Visual Basic. Anthony D Green made some prototypes for top level code in VB. See: https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/04/23/top-level-code-scenario-a/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/04/24/top-level-code-scenario-b/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/04/30/top-level-code-scenario-c/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/05/03/top-level-code-scenario-d/ https://anthonydgreen.net/2019/05/23/top-level-code-scenario-e/

And they might incorporate this in ……….. C# and not VB, see https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/blob/master/meetings/2020/LDM-2020-01-22.md

@tverweij Yup, this just landed in C# 9. 😢 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/welcome-to-c-9-0/#top-level-programs

[rrvenki]

@bandleader, FYI I found @AnthonyDGreen has left Microsoft in Jan2020 and moved on. (ref: https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2020/04/10/vbnet-aspnetcore.aspx) So naturally all his pilots and PoC would land in C#. As per @AnthonyDGreen 's words if VB team was going to have 3-4 developers only it is lesser by one more.

[bandleader]

I can feel just about certain that should such a cross-platform desktop framework (which it won't) ever become a thing in any foreseeable future in .NET that VB would NOT be included.

@aarondglover Very prophetic. MAUI was just announced, and from the blog-post it looks like C# only :( (discussed here) In a comment on the blog post MS indicated F# will be supported (I wonder to what degree); maybe they'll express support for VB but I don't see it happening.

We need a cross-platform desktop framework that works with Linux.

There are many options; Xamarin always had Xamarin.Forms which was then purchased by MS and open-sourced (and that is now forming the basis of MAUI mentioned above). The community has always had Gtk#, and of course Mono has supported WinForms itself quite well for a very long time (I released a small app for Linux with no changes). If you want something more similar to WPF, AvaloniaUI is amazing. And if you want to go the web/Electron route but write in C#, there were always frameworks like Awesomium (AFAIK works on Linux too), and nowadays MS is looking to make that easier also with a Blazor target.

FYI I found @AnthonyDGreen has left Microsoft in Jan2020 and moved on.... So naturally all his pilots and PoC would land in C#. As per @AnthonyDGreen 's words if VB team was going to have 3-4 developers only it is lesser by one more.

@rrvenki Yes, he actually meant Jan 2019 😢, and the 3-5 developers @AnthonyDGreen suggested was actually after he left -- my understanding is that right now there are zero developers. If you look at this repo's issues, it's basically been the VB community trying to engage with the "VB team" for the last year and a half, only to find out recently that the team doesn't really exist. At this point we're just hoping that @KathleenDollard can do something to fix things, which as you quoted from @AnthonyDGreen, means maintaining a lean team of 3-5 developers to work on VB within MS --discusson in #499.

Some have alternatively suggested helping the community take over VB development in a manner similar to F# (instead of working against us as today), but @AnthonyDGreen (in above article) does not think it's an issue of resources for MS.