Heavensward support

[rocketmantis]

There are five parts to this, I think:

1. Support for crafter levels 51 through 60 using existing recipes and actions.
2. New recipes introduced by 3.0
3. New actions for 51+ crafters
4. Specialist actions, and a way to mark which classes you have specialized in
5. Somehow figure out how to even optimize using the new specialist actions, because wow that seems like a hard problem.

The new actions (especially the specialist actions) seem to not lend themselves very well to using a hard-coded action sequence, and that's fine -- getting even step 1 done would restore a lot of functionality for 51+ crafters.

[Buffylvr]

Sure @lokyst. I'm not really a youtube guy, but I have fraps and I suppose I can figure it out.

Do you have a specific recipe or set of recipes that would be helpful to you for me to try?

edit: Also I responded to this via email not realizing it would post the whole e-mail....interesting. Edited to take my e-mail address and non-needed text out, lol.

[Buffylvr]

https://youtu.be/EoMtwQCNlDo

Hmm. I tried to embed but not sure if github allows that.

[lokyst]

@Buffylvr Hmmm, something showing the new Name of Element + Brand of Element synths. Also 60* recipes with Ing1 and Ing2 if you can risk it.

[Buffylvr]

I'll be making Dragon leather in a bit, that'll be easy. I use name/brand of earth on those. Gimmie an hour.

[lokyst]

@Buffylvr Having had a chance to plug your last synth into my spreadsheet I think I will need a level 60 synth (not star) with and without Ing1/2 as a level 60 crafter. If you can do it for multiple craftsmanship, like you did in your previous video, that would help too.

[Buffylvr]

Ok, here is Name of Element + Name of Brand:

https://youtu.be/KXjFlqQmvXE

edit: I was watching True Blood in 2nd monitor - enjoy the sound!

[Buffylvr]

And level 60 ING 1/2 testing, and 2 different craftsmanship ratings:

https://youtu.be/00aQjmVyO38

[Buffylvr]

@lokyst Let me know what you need. You asked for some 60* synths, but I didn't have mats ready and there is almost no reason to make them outside glamour. I'll copy from my earlier post just to clarify:

With 689 Craftsmanship, on a level 60 1 star recipe (so the turn in items for ltw and weaver):

Rapid Synth (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 203 Progress Careful Synth II (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 97 Progress Careful Synth II (Ingeniuty II) = 177 Progress

This was for Chivalric Battledress of Aiming and Chivalric Doublet of Healing, both 60* crafts.

If you need more synths (of any type - including 60* crafts) let me know, and I'll see what I can scrounge up.

Also I have a level 50 Alchemist on a mule. If you want me to try specific recipes at specific gear/levels to see if your model is correct, let me know and I'll see what I can work out.

[RyouR]

So I seem to remember you saying that you could use some data on even level synths. Well I just hit 52 on my CUL and have some more data to share. Stats did slightly change due to food though...

52 CUL 350 Craftmanship 327 Control

52 -Baked Onion Soup 503 Difficulty

Without Ing: Standard Synth - 111 CS2 - 89

With Ing: SS - 167 CS2 - 133

[flan]

CRP @ 58 Craft: 542 Control: 528

Careful Synthesis II / Hasty Touch Birch Lumber: 138p / 219q Under Ingenuity I: 189p /219q Under Ingenuity II: 192p / 219q

[RyouR]

More playing with numbers on equal level for you

54 Cul 451 Craft 387 Control

Dhalmel Gratin - 54 641 Difficulty

No Ing: Muscle Memory - 211 (New CUL ability that increases progress by 1/3rd on first step only) Standard Synth 143 CS2 115

Ing: Standard Synth 215 CS2 172

[lokyst]

Thanks to everyone for their help so far! I have been trying to update the wiki page with the formulae as I get new data that challenges my assumptions.

I am still having a devil of a time figuring out the effect of Ingenuity and Ingenuity2 though. Just when I thought I had it nailed, I got some level 60 information that threw my model, so I still need more information on Even, Low and High Level synths with Ingenuity 1 & 2.

In particular, more Even level synths with ingenuity 1 & 2 at levels 51, 55, 56, 57, 58 and 59 for those still going through the levelling up process.

[lokyst]

@Synlaar I'm finally getting a chance to look at the level 50 and below info, It is possible that they have changed the crafting formulas in HW.

If possible could you provide more examples of level 50 recipes on your level 50 crafter at different levels of craftsmanship?

[jay3686]

Here's some I did with alchemy at lvl 57 and 58. Hope it helps. Will try with a higher level even recipe when i can.

Craft	Level	Craftsmanship	Item	Item lvl
Alchemy	57	509	Void Glue	51

Buff	none	ing 1	ing 2
Progress:	196	196	196

Craft	Level	Craftsmanship	Item	Item lvl
Alchemy	58	520	Void Glue	51

Buff	none	ing 1	ing 2
Progress:	200	200	200

Craft	Level	Craftsmanship	Item	Item lvl
Goldsmith	56	526	Hardsilver Nugget	54

Buff	none	ing 1	ing 2
Progress:	171	202	202

[RyouR]

Totally random, but how do you make those tables?

Anyways, more equal level synthing for you on my WVR today.

58 Weaver 496 Craftsmanship 450 Control

Chemerical Felt - Lvl 58 Difficulty 431 Durability 35 (not sure if this matters, but it's odd to see)

With Ing SS 216 CS2 173

Without Ing SS 158 CS2 126

Boosted my Craftsmanship to 515 since I needed CP food for a good rotation... No ing numbers atm, but add on

Without ing SS 164 CS2 131

to the Chemerical Felt

[jay3686]

It's just markdown https://guides.github.com/features/mastering-markdown/

[lokyst]

@jay3686 Thanks for the datapoints. Is that using CS2?

[RyouR]

Right, so I hit 60 on my weaver last night and was able to do a level 60 synth today. Since it was the new glamour top I did data points for with and without Ing, but I didn't do any careful synth on it (partially cause I wasn't fully thinking about this when doing it, was too excited to make one lol)

Craft & Lvl	Craftsmanship	Control	Item & Lvl	Difficulty
Weaver 60	641	608	60 1 Star - Thavnairian Bustier	1116

Skill	No Ing Progress	Ing Progress
SS	188	112

I will double check those numbers in a couple days as I MAY have been in a slightly different gear set when making it, but I don't believe I was since I wanted to make sure it'd craft.

I also was doing some lower level Alchemist stuff, synthing a 52 item on a 50. I don't know how much more of that kind of thing will help, but here are those points too

Craft & Lvl	Craftsmanship	Control	Item & Lvl	Difficulty
Alchemist 50	338	320	52 - Holy Water	251

Skill	No Ing Progress	Ing Progress
SS	NA	64
CS2	NA	51

Edit: Now that I figured out what I did wrong with tables here are some more crafts in table form instead of other way I had...

Craft & Lvl	Craftsmanship	Control	Item & Lvl	Difficulty
Weaver 60	641	608	60 Chimerical Felt Skirt	956

Skill	No Ing Progress	Ing Progress
SS	205	NA
Trained Hand	205	NA
Careful Synth I	123	NA

Yes, Careful Synth 1 not 2... I was using new hotbar and didn't notice that I drug the wrong one out!)

Trained Hand is specialist action that can only be used when whistle and inner quiet are equal. It has the same efficiency as Standard Synth of 150% and increases both progress and quality. It may not be macro'able due to the conditions, but it may help provide another data point since it came out the same as a standard synth.

[lokyst]

@RyouR Did you typo the details of the Thavnairian Bustier and the bigger number should be with ING? Because that makes no sense. o_O

Well, I'm glad you were excited!

As for the alchemy recipes, yes they are useful because I still need examples of rLvl > cLvl. Thanks!

[Diskmaster]

~~Blacksmith Level 51 (Crafts 332 Control 332 CP 334), making Mythrite Nuggets Basic Synth: 88 Prog, w/ING1 106 Prog, w/ING2 106 Prog Std Synth: 159 Prog, ING1/ING2 has no change with this. CS1: 79 Prog, ING1/ING2 95 Prog CS2: 127 Prog, ING1/ING2 no change.~~

Edit: Clarified meaning. After a moment of thought, since I didn't think to write down those records, at the time those tests were performed, the ING1/ING2 data is useless here where not specific. The initial set of tests I think were done half-asleep, a fresh set of data was provided in a later post.

Marking post out based on observations later on.

[RyouR]

@lokyst Yea, I do believe I did typo those rofl! Hey it was my first table, gimme some slack :P Unfortunately I don't have the log anymore, since I didn't screen shot it, but I'm sure I'll be making more once I get the gil for it and can be doubly sure.

Edit: Not sure if I posted this one before or not, but here is a new one for you.

Craft & Lvl	Craftsmanship	Control	Item & Lvl	Difficulty
Weaver 60	641	608	58 Chimerical Felt	431

Skill	No Ing Progress	Ing Progress
SS	257	NA
CS2	206	NA

[lokyst]

@Diskmaster What do you mean by ING1/ING2 has no change with this? Please provide all numbers. There is just too much ambiguity to be able to guess what you mean by that.

[lokyst]

@Diskmaster Also, could you verify your Craftsmanship? It's too low to be able to yield that level of progress on a Basic Synth -- it should be in the 400s at least, and it is suspiciously similar to your Control rating.

[RyouR]

@lokyst My Alch is now 51 and actually has similar stats, besides the CP, to what @Diskmaster was saying. 325 Craftsmanship and 320 Control. According to what I found online Mythrite Nuggets are a 51/169 Diff synth, so I'll see about making something similar on my alch and see if I can get close to his numbers and replicate the ing thing

[rocketmantis]

Not sure if you still need data on these, but I ended up doing some 50 star synths last night. All actions listed were tested with and without Ing 1 -- it had no effect. I should have tested Ing 2 as well but I forgot, sorry. I should be able to get some four star data soon too.

ALC 53, Craftsmanship 476, Control 387

Item	Level	Basic Synth	Careful Synth 2	Hasty Touch
Spirits of Salt	50**	155	186	171
Concentrated Spirits of Salt	50***	154	185	170

[RyouR]

Found an exact match, Enchanted Mythrite Ink. Lvl 51, 169 Difficulty. Again stats are Craftsmanship 325, Control 320.

Skill	Non-Ing	Ing
Basic Synth	86	103
Standard Synth	129	155
Careful Synth	77	93
Careful Synth 2	103	124

All numbers were wrote down here right after seeing them in-game, so I know they are accurate. This is surprising when compared to @Diskmaster's numbers...

Skill	Non-Ing	Ing
Basic Synth	88	106
Standard Synth	159	???
Careful Synth	79	95
Careful Synth 2	127	???

Some are shockingly close, and could be due to my having 7 less Craftsmanship than him. His SS and CS2 (claimed without ing) are also shockingly close to my Ing numbers.

If anyone has a level 50 crafter available still I have a theory on these numbers. These 169 Difficulty recipes are meant to be a stepping stone into HW crafting. We all know that synthing anything in HW is a pain if you're 50, but what if they left in a gap fil item so you didn't need to painfully synth the old star items (which lots of people were doing) or harder HW items. I remember reading that they wanted to try to make it easier for new crafters, and they wouldn't have access to those master books likely, so this makes sense. This also makes me wonder how those numbers would work plugged into the OLD model for things.

[Diskmaster]

@lokyst Edited original post to reflect clarity regarding ING1/ING2. I saw no change, but to make sure and give additional data points, I'm trying again.

Gearset on BSM: Craftsmanship 332, Control 332, CP 334 unbuffed at Level 51. Left Side: Vulcan The entire Artisan's set you get for exchanging a set amount of two star tokens. (Spectacles, Gown, Fingerstalls, Chausses, Pattens) Raptorskin Merchant's Purse HQ (Meld: +3CP) Right side: Mythril File HQ Electrum Choker HQ (Meld: CP+3, Control+2, Crafts+3, Control+1) Red Coral Earrings HQ (Meld: Ctrl+3, Crafts+3, CP+2, CP+2) Militia Wristlets HQ (Meld: Ctrl+3, CP+3, Crft+4, Ctrl+1) Two Aetheryte Rings HQ (Meld: Same order as Militia Wristlets for both)

Mythrite Nugget (169 diff/51 level) - Please note that progress noted is what the chat log is showing. Test 1: Careful Synth II - 106 Progress Careful Synth II w/ING1 - 127 Progress Test 2: Careful Synth II w/ING2 - 127 Progress Basic Synth w/ING2 - 106 Progress Test 3: Basic Synth - 88 Progress Basic Synth w/ING1 - 106 Progress Test 4: CS II w/ING1 - 127 Prog (repeated to finish) Test 5: CS II w/ING2 - 127 Prog (repeated to finish) Test 6: CS I w/ING2 - 95 Prog CS I w/ING1 - 95 Prog Test 7: Standard Synth w/ING2 - 159 Prog SS w/ING1 - 159 Prog

Additional testing with two pieces of gear removed (Craft 324, Control 258, CP 329): Test 1: Basic Synth - 86 Prog Std Synth - 129 Prog Test 2: CS I - 77 Prog CS II - 103 Prog Test 3: Basic Synth w/ING1 - 103 Prog Std Synth w/ING1 - 155 Prog Test 4: CS 1 w/ING1 - 93 Prog CS 2 w/ING1 - 124 Prog Test 5: Basic Synth w/ING2 - 103 Prog Std Synth w/ING2 - 155 Prog

Yet more testing with only Vulcan equipped: (Craft 107, Control 61, CP 180) Basic Synth - 29 Prog Basic Synth w/ING1 - 35 Prog Basic Synth w/ING2 - 35 Prog

[doxxx]

@Diskmaster

So you're saying that with or without Ing1/2 you saw 159 progress with Standard Synth. That doesn't gel with our existing data nor with what @RyouR has subsequently posted as well.

The reasons we ask for videos, so that we can transcribe it ourselves and double check that we transcribed it correctly when we get weird results. Because we get lots of weird results. :)

We're not saying you have to provide videos but please triple check your data and include everything. Even the slightest detail can make a difference.

[Diskmaster]

@doxxx I didn't think to check SS without ING1 or 2 in the main test batch. Lemme grab some sand and correct that error.

edit: Just checked, baseline Std. Synth without ING1/ING2 with full gear set (ref previous post 332/332/334) is 132 Prog. edit2: And CS1 without ING1 or ING2 is 79 Prog with same gear set. Apologies for the confusion.

[RyouR]

Just did another Thav Top... Also recorded but while it's uploading here is the numbers as I transcribed:

641 Craft 608 Control 1-Star 60 1116 Diff

Ing SS 188 CS2 151

No Ing SS 112 CS2 90

Ignoring my typo on confusing the non ing and ing numbers for SS, that's what I got above for SS.

https://youtu.be/6JxF3mNsjl0

[lokyst]

Quick update: I have updated the wiki and the spreadsheet on Google Docs with the latest findings. It seems that there is a recipe level factor to quality. I have managed to reduce the error to around +/- 1 on progress and quality for most examples.

[rocketmantis]

I unlocked the new GSM cross-class ability, Maker's Mark, and have had some chance to test it out in practice now. The tooltip description is this: "Reduces Flawless Synthesis CP cost and durability loss to 0. Effect duration determined by recipe difficulty. Available only on the first step."

Specifically, it gives you a buff (Maker's Mark) that appears to last 1 duration per 100 recipe difficulty, rounded up. This buff ticks down like normal, and while it lasts Flawless Synthesis costs 0 CP and 0 durability to use. So if you only spend actions on FS for the duration of the buff, you'll get around 36% of the needed progress done for 20 CP -- you'll fail 10% of them and the others will give you 40 progress each. The rounding means that it's much stronger for recipes with difficulty slightly over the nearest 100 than slightly under, and in fact it's strictly worse than just using FS for very low level recipes that have <=100 difficulty.

The main advantage use for it appears to be for high-difficulty items. Since you get such a long duration on Maker's Mark, you can drop a couple of individual Flawless Synths to pick up other benefits without affecting the total progress too much.

For example, recipes with 1401-1500 difficulty give you 15 Maker's Mark actions. Spending two of these on CZ (or a single Good on ToT) is enough to recover the 20 CP cost of Maker's Mark, and then you have fifteen turns of fishing for Good/Excellent to spend on Precise Touch. It's even better if you're a specialist, because every Good/Excellent that appears will advance your Whistle stack. Net result: for zero CP you're still getting like 30% or so of your progress done, but also have a good shot at having 4-6 IQ stacks and a head start on quality and whistles. If you have CP to spare you can also spend three more actions and 75 CP to keep SH2 running for the whole duration -- it's less progress and more CP spent, but better reliability on progress overall and also gives the Touches 100% chance to land.

Overall it's a pretty interesting ability, especially when compared to the other new cross-class ability that isn't Name of Element: CUL 54 teaches Muscle Memory, which is just a cheap 100%-chance Piece by Piece that you can only use on the first step.

[doxxx]

Heavensward beta simulator update

[doxxx]

From a commenter on the blog, it appears there is some inaccuracy at lower levels:

Not sure where to post this but there seems to be an odd bug with BSM. I keep getting results that under estimate the 'progress' value. I am sure I got all the stats in right however for example the progress for a 40dur 31progress item (iron ingot) The solver suggested that It will only need one basic synthesis to get the 31 progress however i only get 27.

The stats I have in are LV: 20 Craft: 101 Con: 115 CP:261

[lchesley]

With regards to the Iron Ingot inconsistency, the level of the recipe is different for ARM and BSM. For example, it's level 13 for ARM and level 16 for BSM. Using the formula for under 50 crafts from lokysts spreadsheet, and the stats given in the previous post, I get 26 progress with the craft at level 13, and 24 with the craft at level 16. For reference, the sub 50 progress I got the from the spreadsheet is:

baseProgress = (0.224779600835706 * craftsmanship) - 2.27812423237703

With the following level adjustments:

if (levelDifference > 0 && levelDifference <= 5) { levelCorrection = 0.0495215482164759 * levelDifference;
}

            if (levelDifference > 5 && levelDifference <= 15)
            {
                levelCorrection = (0.0221128799787351 * (levelDifference - 5)) + (5 * 0.0495215482164759);                 
            }

Apologies for any formatting snafus, but hope that was helpful.

-Rex

[doxxx]

We've made some changes on the beta site. Read more about it here: http://ffxiv.lokyst.net/blog/?p=114

[SagaZekken]

Hello,

I'm not sure if you guys are still in the hunt for more accurate lower level formulas, but might as well share this here. I've been mass collecting data from crafting with a bunch of people and have got around 36,000 data points of basic synthesis progress gains on different circumstances. These are all straight up basic synthesis values for different recipes / levels / stats, without any obvious external influence like Ingenuity. Unfortunately, I'm really bad at statistics, but perhaps someone here might find it useful.

Right now I've only analyzed the data points that correspond to when recipe level = player level and recipe level < 50. By recipe level I mean the internal level (i.e. 55, 70, etc) not the display level. There's around 2700 data points that fit these circumstances. When fixed to recipe level = player level, the formula definitely looks linear.

Graph

However, there's two issues I've found. The first is that looking at the graph, you can see how the game must be rounding the floating point output of the formula into integers, which produces those "steps" that show up. I really only know simple linear regression, and don't know how to account for rounding errors. Searching a bit here there seems to be ways of accounting for it, but it goes way above my abilities in statistics.

The second issue I've found is that for some values, the same craftsmanship produces different progress gains that differ by 1. For example, with craftsmanship at 114. This seems to always happen every 4 craftsmanship points, with the 3 points previous to it not having the issue. For example, 111, 112, 113 all give you 25 progress, while 114 sometimes gives you 25 and sometimes 26, while 115+ continue with 26. So far I've only found that it depends on the recipe, but have not found any patterns from other variables that might be affecting it. It could be a rounding on the fly kind of error that the game performs. I'm simply at a loss on what it might be.

Anyways, here's the data.

[doxxx]

Thanks for that! I assume these data points were gathered after the Heavensward expansion?

[lokyst]

I am interested in the data, not just the even level synths. What format is it in? Maybe we can set up a place to upload it to if google docs is not an option.

[SagaZekken]

Yup, it's all post Heavenward. The data is in an SQL database right now, which I'm exporting into JSON and then into CSV to open in Excel.

[doxxx]

How big is the CSV when zipped?

[SagaZekken]

It's not that big, around 34K results in total. I just put it on google docs. Just be warned, there's some clear outliers in some of the data that I'm unsure how they got there. It's usually like 5 or so data points per 2K that are clearly wrong. Also, some results have no progress or quality gain results registered, if you see a zero on either it's because that was never tested on that particular instance.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f87gsbIVcin5usbRGbg73xppqKXzbENqg3sBsV2A948/edit?usp=sharing

It seems all the formulas for each level delta when recipe is below 50 are linear, and you can get them to a +1 / -1 point of error using simple linear regression. I haven't yet analyzed for recipes above 50.

[doxxx]

We've published another update to the beta site: http://ffxiv.lokyst.net/blog/?p=116

[lokyst]

@SagaZekken Thanks for the data. I see there is now control and quality data as well. You don't mention this in your original post, so I am assuming these are all Hasty Touch or Basic Touch actions?

[SagaZekken]

Oh yes, I forgot about that. The initial post was only about the analysis I was doing for recipes below 50 in regards to progress. The data also includes Basic Touch results under the same conditions as the basic synthesis result. The collection method tried to make sure there was no Ingenuity I/II or Great Strides active when collecting the data.

[katrisashe]

Really awesome to see more updates go in, Thanks for the support you guys are awesomepants!