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Attic Spiral Staircase #30

Closed nelsonic closed 3 years ago

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Todo

October 2019 - Fusion 360 Re-Draw

Some amazing designs in this list: https://casaeconstrucao.org/escadas/escada-caracol

Implementation Tasks

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Wireframe:

image image
nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Searched for: "height rise staircase cm" found: https://www.levelmaster.com.au/stair-calculator-stair-stringers/ image https://www.levelmaster.com.au/wp-content/uploads/1-step-stringer-Drawing.jpg

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Using Hollow Mild Steel Tube to construct the frame/structure for the staircase: image The rectangular tubing on the right to be specific.

Searched for: "rectangular tube sizes and weights" found: https://www.metalsupplies.com/products/mild-steel-hollow-section image

Using: 80 X 40 X 5MM (RHS) RECTANGULAR STEEL HOLLOW SECTION (8.13 KG/M)

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Hand Rails?

Hand rail heigh: https://www.thespruce.com/stair-handrail-and-guard-code-1822015 image obviously the site is American so all measurements are in inches... 🙄

The only measurement I'm interested in is "handrail height: 34 - 38 inches" (86.36 - 96.52 cm) and the mid-term of 36 inches (91.44cm)

http://www.cbm.pi.gov.br/download/201404/CBM16_8f22b5db6d.pdf image

The height of the hand rail is 92cm. That's what I'm going with.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

You know when you think a task will only take "a couple of hours" ⏳ but it ends up being a "pandora's box" that takes 10x more time...?! 🙄

I did effectively "timebox" the task and remained focussed for the full amount of time I allocated to it. I just woefully over-estimated my SketchUp speed and by the time I was getting into the "flow state" doing the 3D drawing, everyone was intent on interrupt my "flow". I ended up spending 7 hours straight drawing only taking brief breaks for bathroom and water-bottle refills, but eventually got sucked into lunch with family. And then when I got back to my desk there were 10 other things competing for my limited attention.

Side Note on Deep/Focus Work

One of the most frustrating things in (my) life is when the people who do not "produce" (creative work), and therefore do not understand what it takes to enter "deep work focus", insist on constantly interrupting the people who are desperately trying to focus. 😞

When the interruptions are for trivial things that have zero long-term importance/significance but must be discussed immediately, I increasingly feel like I am suppressing my rage. 😡

When children do it (because they do not yet understand the value of time or the scarcity of "focussed deep work"), that's totally understandable. As an adult, I cannot reasonably expect a person who has never felt extreme shortage of time to grasp that "focus time" is finite and fleeting, so my patience continues to be limitless for them. (if you don't know me, you won't realise how patient I am when it comes to the people in my life ... you may only see the "breaking of the camels back" event and think I am pathologically impatient, but the fact is that I consistently try for years to communicate with people in multiple ways and only "give up" after 20+ attempts!)

But the Adults who constantly complain that they don't have "enough time" (while still burning through 7-10h per week on TV or other mindless entertainment) constantly interrupt me when they can see that I am trying to do something on my computer that is clearly not admin, email/chat or other shallow "busywork" ... I feel immensely frustrated and want to escape the tyranny of the un-creative.

tl;dr > Moving On!

Anyway, I will finish my work on the Attic Spiral Stair Case and it will be considerably better than something a professional interior designer or experienced architect would conceive of.

The reason it's taking me a lot longer is that I am paying massive attention to detail and methodically taking the time to draw that detail so that the "metal shop" we are paying to manufacture the staircase has zero reason to get it wrong ... i.e. I'm taking as much "ambiguity" out of the "build phase" as possible by putting all of my effort into the Design. This is "waterfall" because it is the only way the people we are working with understand how to work. 😞

codeanpeace commented 5 years ago

Great side note on deep work!

Regarding the "waterfall" comment, I wonder how much of that the cost of agile being much higher for manufacturers of physical objects made out of metal. Or is it just historic/legacy process – it's just the way it's always been done? Thinking out loud, I wonder if they could iterate on smaller scale prototypes. Is that possible given the tooling/equipment in metal shops? 🤔

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@codeanpeace It's mostly a historic/legacy mindset. Most of the world is not "agile" in the way they think much less in the way they get their work done. I totally understand in the case of metal work where having precise dimensions saves time/materials. Having done metal fabrication, I feel that this staircase will take about a week to manufacture. If one measurement in the design is "off" then the whole thing will be off. So getting this "right" up-front is the only way of saving time/materials in the long-run. Also it's a question of availability, the metal shop do not want to "stop-and-start" the work, they want to do it all in one go. Again, this is understandable as they need to plan their workflow. In software we can afford to be way more flexible because there is no "storage cost" for work-in-progress; the only "cost" we have is cognitive "task switching time"; which is comparatively simple.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

20180405-plantas-electricidade-REV02-Francisca-FINAL.pdf

codeanpeace commented 5 years ago

Agreed, lots of good call outs there. The "question of availability" reminded me of the cost of context switching in creative deep work.

When do you think you guys will open if you don't mind me asking? (please point me to the right channel for inquiry if/since this is probably not it)

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

I'm still busy editing the "making of" video but here's a screen cap: image

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles I have a question regarding the ergonomics of the Spiral Staircase: When a "user" reaches the 3rd step, the 13th step "sticks out" 20cm above the person's head and the height between the 3rd step, the 13th step is 1695mm (169.5cm). The height between the top of the 3rd and bottomor of the 14th step is 1870mm (187cm) this means 90% of people around the world will "clear" it. (see below)

This is much easier to understand/explain if you either look at the drawings below: (or visit my desk)

image

image

Not trying to "decapitate" the human in this render, just to show you which are the 13th and 14th steps respectively: image

Essentially if people use the stairs in a "normal" way, i.e. they walk in the middle of the stairs, there is no problem because the 13th step does not "stick out" far enough to interfere withe the person's head and the 14th step is high enough that 90+% of people will clear it.

image via: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/10th-50th-and-90th-mass-and-height-percentiles-for-male-and-female-adults-for-Caucasian_tbl1_51180593

With the exception of a few giants from the Netherlands 🇳🇱🙄, the gap between the 3rd and 14th step will be fine for 90% of people. I feel that the ceiling height in the Attic rooms will be the bigger "constraint" for the taller people.

What do you think? 🤔

iteles commented 5 years ago

I don't think that the 14th step is an issue, although there is a chance that as you're going down the stairs you're actually bouncing (and on a bounce up there's always the danger you hit your forehead if you aren't paying attention), so we need to coat that stair in something spongey anyway just as a preventative measure.

My concern would be for the 13th step, which people could also hit the back of their head on when they're heading up the stairs and not really seeing it.

Two things that may ameliorate the situation would be:

What do you think? Would either of those help?

P.S. This drawing is awesome! 🚀

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

For reference, this is the spiral staircase we had considered from Leroy:

http://www.leroymerlin.pt/Site/Produtos/Madeiras/Escadas/Escadas-de-interior/13925331.aspx image 158cm is the diameter. Each step is 75cm which conforms to the "Regulations" as does the rail heigh and spacing between each vertical bar (cannot be more than 10cm wide so people cannot get their heads stuck between bars...)

Side note: what's up with Leroy Merlin's website being "Not Secure"...? 😕

@iteles I feel that we should seriously consider this staircase from Leroy and "adapt" it to our needs by extending the central pilar to the full height of the attic ceiling. The only reason we did not consider it before was because we need the first and last steps to be offset (as per my drawing), but I think we should re-imagine it next time we visit @home and see if we can make this "store bought" one "work" to save both time and uncertainty.

Thoughts?

iteles commented 5 years ago

I think I need to be in the spot of the staircase to consider it properly.

I would say that it's pretty much the same price as a custom built one, so if we're going to have to adapt it anyway, it may be worth our while basing the design on this but just getting our one built from the get-go.

Let's check it out on Monday when we're @home for meetings with the electrician, plumbers & architect :+1:

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles the 118cm version (ignore the color) fits our dimensions/needs better:

http://www.leroymerlin.pt/Site/Produtos/Madeiras/Escadas/Escadas-de-interior/13928474.aspx image image image

I "vote" that we visit LM on Monday and discuss our needs with the (hopefully knowledgeable/competent) people in the store and see if we can make this work.

I agree that the price of the store-bought stairs is similar to the custom-built on the surface. But you are only looking at the "quote" price, not the time it's going to take "back-and-forth" or the probability that the custom-build will conform to all regulations. The last thing we need/want is someone from the council vetoing our "alojamento local" request because the stairs aren't perfect which then would mean we have to rip out the custom-build and go back to the drawing board.

https://www.loftcentre.co.uk/fontanot-oak-90-adjustable-modular-stair-kit image

iteles commented 5 years ago

With regards to alojamento local, as long as we adhere to basic safety regulations (banister heights and slip-proof protection on the steps) then there are no other specific regulations for staircases. LM products are made for residential so I hope we find someone who knows what they're talking about!

I'd previously discussed this with you (note this price doesn't include installation): http://www.leroymerlin.pt/Site/Produtos/Madeiras/Escadas/Escadas-de-interior/13925492.aspx image

Agreed our best bet is to check it out on Monday both on location and in Leroy Merlin 👍

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

We went to LeroyMerlin in January to ask if the 118cm ready-made staircase would fit. Sadly, it requires 130cm for installation, so we would need to cut another beam ("viga") which would weaken the attic's integrity. 😞

@iteles as you suggested above ⬆️ I widened the bottom 3 stairs from 600mm to 750mm (extra 15cm) image This means people have more space to clear the 13th step. LMK your thoughts.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles as discussed, when the central support column is centered in the in the ceiling gap we get: image

image image image It's not a fatal error, just an alignment issue.

I'm going to spend the next couple of pomodoros 🍅⏳ re-drawing the walls and ceiling to calculate exactly the distance from the column to the wall. And then I will add in the hand-rail. 📝

iteles commented 5 years ago

@nelsonic Shall we meet tomorrow to see what we we think of the quote we have been given here and what we need to send back for an updated one? The stairs will take 3-4 weeks to have made and without them it will be hard to finish the flooring on that landing, so I'm adding a p2 to this 📈

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles 08:00? 🕘

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Sadly, the hole in the attic where the stairs need to "fit" is only 1950mm long whereas I drew the stairs 2390mm long image so I need to do a few hours of re-work. ⏳

I've added 3 todo list items to the first comment above.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

My plan is to remove the 17th step which will reclaim 290mm of length: image 2390mm - 290mm = 2100mm this is still 150mm (2100-1950) longer than the gap we have. This means we need to adjust the rise between the stairs to compensate for the "loss" of this step.

The rise between each step is 175mm (my aim was to match the "main" staircase which has a rise of 175mm but this is not necessary as attic/spiral staircases can have rises between "tread" up to 220mm) https://www.britishsc.co.uk/building-regulations-for-spiral-staircases image

The rise between the 16th step and the attic floor is 249mm image 249-175 = 74mm We could either increase the rise on each of the 16 remaining steps by (74 / 16 =) 4.625mm OR we could increase the rise on steps 10 - 16 by (74 / 7 =) 10.57mm (or 11mm per step).

@iteles going to move ahead with the plan described herein.

iteles commented 5 years ago

Agreed, thanks for putting in all the time to update this!

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

The amounts we need to shift (increase the rise of) each step by:

AFTER: image

I've increased the height of the rise on the steps 10 to 16 by 10-11mm: image

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Attic opening re-drawn: image

View from top: image

My next and final step is to draw the hand-rail. But I would like to get it right the first time ...

@iteles at this point I feel it would be wise to re-measure the positioning of the attic opening in relation to the main staircase in order to draw the wall west wall of the gents bathroom. That way I can be certain if I can increase the width of steps 4 - 7 (to make them touch the wall) and create a sense of space on these steps.

iteles commented 5 years ago

@nelsonic We went to the house and re-measured the wall and positioning of the opening. I think we should send the staircase drawing to the metalworker for a quote _before__ taking the time to add in the railing as this will not be a fast task and the sooner we get a quote, the sooner we know if we want to commission it from him as soon as the drawings are done.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles as you wrote above, last week I took a few more measurements and added in the attic opening. The the opening into the attic had not yet been finalised when I started drawing the stairs ... Now that the attic is further along, the constraints are finalised.

3 issues

While re-working the diagram, I noted the following issues:

1. Step 3 & 4 Need to be Re-Drawn

After expanding stairs 5, 6 & 7, we are left with a bit of re-work on the 3rd and 4th step:

image

2. Re-drawing Step 8 to Reach Wall

Expanding steps 5, 6 & 7 to reach the wall is easy:

image

But it means that we need to re-draw step 8 ...

image

3. Shoulder Space on Steps 8, 9 & 10

As you can see in the following screenshot, the model is standing on step #9 and it's "useable" ...

image

But if the model is placed in the middle of the step, a more realistic UX, his shoulder is cut off.

image

Given this 3rd issue, which is going to require a ton of re-work, I've decided to use this first design as a learning opportunity. See: https://course.ccs.neu.edu/cs5500f14/Notes/Prototyping1/planToThrowOneAway.html

Next: I'm going to re-draw the stairs from scratch with the constraints in place.

While searching for "sketchup stairs" I came across this good intro:

image

If you are following along and ever need to draw stairs without overhead constraints, go for it.

iteles commented 5 years ago

😱 This is a great learning opportunity (imagine if we'd let the metal smith go ahead and make the stairs and then this happened?) but what a lot of work to re-do from scratch 😬 Can I help? Even at the scribble-on-paper-thinking-out-loud stage? Or is it more of a 1 person job?

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles it's a pretty painful learning experience from an effort perspective given how many hours it took me to draw the first version and I could have got it "right" from the beginning if I'd had the constraints finalised when I started ... 😕 But I'm glad that I have the chance to re-work it virtually before spending the cash/time on making it out of metal. ☀️

I've input the constraints into a fresh drawing:

image

If you want to visit my desk and pair on discussing the design of the stairs now would be the time, I have a blank canvas and can do anything with it. 👨‍🎨 🎨 🖌

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

2910 + 170 = 3080mm (total height from one floor to the next) 3080 / 16 = 192.5mm the rise for each step. (yes this is more than the 17cm of the main staircase so it will feel steeper, but it's less than the maximum allowable which is 22cm)

If you're interested in the technical terminology in Portuguese I'd recommend this video: image https://youtu.be/b5kvRGHzMZs Or if you prefer to read, go with: escadas.pdf from: http://www.civil.uminho.pt/lftc/Textos_files/construcoes/cp2/Cap.%20I%20-%20Escadas.pdf image

I know that if I didn't have the constraints imposed by the attic opening, I could make perfect stairs ... but given the constraints, I can work within the guidelines/law to achieve a compromise.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

As calculated above, we can have 16 steps with a rise of 192.5mm this includes both landings The actual number of treads is 14 which means we need to re-calculate the rise: 3080 / 15 = 205.33mm (again, this is still well within the 220mm max rise per tread listed above)

Rise: 205.33mm
1 205.33
2 410.67
3 616.00
4 821.33
5 1,026.67
6 1,232.00
7 1,437.33
8 1,642.67
9 1,848.00
10 2,053.33
11 2,258.67
12 2,464.00
13 2,669.33
14 2,874.67

Depth

620/2 = 310 550/2 = 275 1250/4 = 312.5

Width

620 -

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles i've re-drawn the stairs and would appreciate a second pair of eyes on the sketch before I proceed to drawing the hand-rails ... image LMK when you have a few minutes to review. (thanks!)

First flight: no longer any head-room issues on the 3rd step. image

Second flight: image

Step 8: image

Fourth Flight: image

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles as discussed verbally in our catch up this morning, I'm going to do some adjustments:

Expecting this to take an hour. Will show you once complete.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

I've done the re-work for steps 7-10 and added the step numbers in: image

Going to work on the inner handrail now. Guidance on handrail "graspability": https://inspectapedia.com/Stairs/Handrail_Graspability.php image

92cm

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

FYI: The pattern for the numbers on the stairs corresponds to the foot the person would use assuming they start walking up/down the stairs with their right foot and alternate. image

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

When I started drawing the 2nd version of the stairs I thought that designing stairs to fit in the constraints was achievable ... but I'm having second thoughts while attempting to read all the relevant regulations, it appears that the minimum width of stairs should be 80cm ... 😞

As noted above, when we were initially doing the research for the attic stairs https://github.com/ideaq/home/issues/30#issuecomment-455819387 Leroy sells a spiral staircase that is 55cm wide: http://www.leroymerlin.pt/Site/Produtos/Madeiras/Escadas/Escadas-de-interior/13928474.aspx image

I'm confused if the Leroy spiral staircase is legal ...

Regulamento Geral das Edificações Urbanas (RGEU) Decreto-Lei n.º 64/90

Sadly, the regulations aren't well laid out at all! (there are no tables or diagrams, only blocks of text!) https://dre.pt/pesquisa/-/search/332912/details/maximized

Article 32 appears to suggest that we cannot have stairs narrower than 120cm: image

Article 18 appears to say that we are forbidden from having only a spiral staircase image

The Minho University (civil engineering department) guidance has a more helpful layout (bullet points): http://www.civil.uminho.pt/lftc/Textos_files/construcoes/cp2/Cap.%20I%20-%20Escadas.pdf image

http://www.l3garquitectos.pt/uploads/2/3/6/9/2369524/rgeu_-_dln.38382-1951.pdf image

@iteles Who can we ask about this? 🤔 I don't think I should continue drawing until we are able to clarify this.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles any luck asking your architect cousin (Seb) ⛵️ or one of the many other competent/qualified people we have worked with...? 💭

iteles commented 5 years ago

@nelsonic I told him I'd send him the relevant detail and he said he'd take a deeper look into this today. If not, then I'll pass this question to one of our architects (and also look up the regulamento for alojamento local).

iteles commented 5 years ago

I have now spoken to the architects who created our fire safety plans (sorry, he was a hard man to get hold of) and they've confirmed that for access to the attic, this isn't a problem. He will review whether we need to have additional fire safety doors in the corridor below but in the meantime, we can go ahead with the staircase 👍

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Found this useful: https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Stair_design

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Recap of Sketchup Follow Me Tool

Extruding Shapes Along Paths With the SketchUp Follow Me Tool: image https://youtu.be/Uw4lSXOFLMU

This is always fun ... image

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

image

Persevered ... image

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles when you have 5 mins, please visit my desk so that we can go through the model. (I will continue filling in the vertical safety bars until then...)

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles I uploaded an orbit ("fly around") for the model to YT: image https://youtu.be/rnmHd3NQChs

Here are a few stills we can share with people to give them idea: image

image

image

image

please let me know what else is needed to move this forward. If you can share the email address for the serralheiro (name escapes me) and Ben's number I can candle the communications for getting this done.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

The sketchup model is: https://github.com/ideaq/home/blob/master/attic/attic-staircase-v25.skp People can use the free Sketchup Viewer: https://www.sketchup.com/products/sketchup-viewer to inspect the model and get any measurements relevant to building the real thing.

iteles commented 5 years ago

Now that the hatch door is complete #43 I've sent the drawings to the serralheiro to see when he'd have availability for this.

iteles commented 5 years ago

Spoke to the ironmonger today and he says the budget remains the same (from a cursory glance over the drawings we sent him) and includes setting the stairs up in place. The only thing it doesn't include is the wooden steps themselves (just the metal support for them).

However, he cannot start until mid August. I told him we'd get in touch end of July to meet up with him, agree the details and figure out his exact dates 👍

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

I'm fine with starting mid-august for the Attic Stairs because we don't need to use the space up there until then. (might be good to temporarily seal off the attic and forget about it till the stairs are ready ...) Meanwhile I will work on the https://github.com/nelsonic/braga-houseparent-tiny-home which will have attic access (albeit not to the whole attic).

Question: what do you think about asking Ben if he's interested in helping with the staircase? We could easily make it out of wood and it would have comparable durability. FSC Wood is arguably a more sustainable than Mild steel and it might also look better ... 🤔

iteles commented 5 years ago

@nelsonic Making the attic staircase or the houseparent staircase?

We can certainly show him your drawings when he's out here at the end of next week.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Sure. Let's do that. 👍