nelsonic commented 5 years ago

As a person who loves grilled food I would like to have a dedicated BBQ area So that we can have a weekly braai. 🔥

Todo

[x] Gather requirements 📝
- [x] BBQ Grill 🔥
- [x] Sink for washing up and prep 🚰
- [x] Oven for Pizza https://github.com/dwyl/home/issues/77#issuecomment-504650399 🍕
- [x] Under-counter space for fire wood 🌲
- [x] Rain cover
[x] Sketch it!
[x] Print Sketch off A3
[x] Send Sketch to Pedro/Carlos
[ ] Get it built.

Related to #61 (Exterior Lighting) and #14 (SunRoom)

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Should we install a Pizza Oven?

Pizza Physics: Why Brick Ovens Bake The Perfect Italian-Style Pie: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/23/630544154/pizza-physics-why-brick-ovens-bake-the-perfect-italian-style-pie

As you are probably aware (from the size of my belly... 🙄) I adore Pizza! And if we were able to make home-made sourdough pizza, I think it would be quite a "social" activity similar to a BBQ but more active.

My only issue with having a Pizza Oven is that it appears to "endorse" Cheese consumption ... 😕

Vegan Cheese Alternative? http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-recipe/10-vegan-cheeses-that-will-knock-your-socks-off/

https://youtu.be/ZsFS8f5drxg

https://youtu.be/bpPs8uqGRQE

https://youtu.be/0MpL1KfYEJg

Vegan Chorizo >> Vegan + Gluten Free "Pão com Choriço!" 😮

https://yupitsvegan.com/homemade-soyrizo

This is what I had/have in mind: https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/fornos-a-lenha-wood-fired-pizza-ovens-IDB0DIk.html#fd6f78856c;promoted

The "MVP" is an "Off-the-shelf" unit from AKI or Leory: https://www.aki.pt/jardim/equipamento-de-jardim/barbecues-e-acessorios/barbecues-fixos/churrasqueiras-lenha-e-carvao/FornolenhaVULCANO120-P32707.aspx

Research

[ ] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/equipment/the-best-pizza-ovens/

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

The area we are working with is:

from : https://github.com/dwyl/home/issues/14#issuecomment-485287243

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Thinking of using this sink: https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/kitchen-products/kitchen-taps-sinks/vattudalen-inset-sink-1-bowl-with-drainboard-stainless-steel-spr-29158189/

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Best value for money I've found for the traditional Pizza Oven online: https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/forno-de-po-a-lenha-80-cm-IDwHIpY.html#d307f2cc8f

I would order the 120cm version for €165 + shipping and add the optional thermometer. I think it makes sense to have an integrated thermometer for consistent cooking temperature.

This the most well-finished oven I've found: (but costs considerably more) https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/fornos-a-lenha-wood-fired-pizza-ovens-IDB0DIk.html

These Dome Ovens are sold for $1799 on the website: https://www.domeovens.com/product-page/tudor-model

Leroy is over-charging for their ovens: leroymerlin.pt/Site/Pesquisar.aspx?q=FORNO%20lenha

Made-to-measure Inox Grill: https://www.olx.pt/anuncio/grelha-inox-para-churrasqueiras-IDAus6r.html#5557264eaa

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Progress so far:

Going to draw the grill next then the rain cover, but you get the idea. 💡

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Once again, the width I'm using as a guide for counter space either side of the sink is the IKEA LÄMPLIG Chopping board https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/cookware/knives-chopping-boards/l%C3%A4mplig-chopping-board-bamboo-art-00309829/ Which, #FunFact is one of the few IKEA products that is cheaper in PT than UK (no idea why...): https://www.ikea.com/pt/pt/catalog/products/00309829

The important dimension is the 53cm width.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

I'm designing the BBQ to be much wider than "normal" domestic BBQ grills so that it can be used to cook food for up to 50 people (e.g. if we had a garden party and invited neighbours+friends)

When we only need to use part of it, that's easy enough, as shown here in Gerês: rory-jack-bbq

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Moved the oven to the corner for a few reasons:

The oven was "sticking out" (and if we go for the 120cm oven, it would stick out by 50cm...)
The BBQ is more "social" so putting it in front of the leisure room makes sense.

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Basic Roof structure:

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

With Roof (SIP) Panel:

Voila! All-weather BBQ area with wood-fire pizza/bread oven.

@iteles I estimate this will cost €1500 including all materials:

Roof structure: €300
Pizza oven: €300 (with delivery)
Grill: €200 (custom-made-to-measure, delivered and installed)
Sink: €130 (with delivery) - need outdoor plumbing to supply water and remove greywater.

Going to print off the renders on A3 paper to show Pedro/Carlos

Open questions:

Electrical supply (for "fairy lights")
Plumbing
Construction cost

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

Printed. ✅

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles it would be good to get your feedback on these designs. Anything you would improve/remove/reposition?

iteles commented 5 years ago

@nelsonic We've talked a little about this before but good call on getting me to write it down 😬 tl;dr: This is great and I wouldn't change anything really.

We could posteriorly add some shelving under the bbq and pizza oven area to store the implements required for each type of cooking (or even as a place to put down plates if you're serving directly onto people's plates).

We could also build in a slide-away table top for extra counter space to place the raw ingredients (fish and veggies for the barbeque) and raw pizzas whilst the oven is in use. I would propose that this is super simple: immediately under each area (bbq and pizza), there is a tabletop that slides out with a drop-down leg. The material would have to be heat-resistant! It would give us a pizza preparation station outside whilst the pizzas are being made 😄 This makes an assumption that you'd use either the pizza oven or the grill but not both at the same time as they make it hard to work in that area. We could also find a way to create this beside the pizza oven or having it fold up like the standing desk you built for us in London @nelsonic ☺️

I would also love to paint the back wall of the bbq area in chalkboard paint - it might be a little dark, we'd have to see - but people could write messages for the cook, make pizza ingredient requests and many other things. It would also disguise any dirt and be pretty easy to wipe down!

I don't have many thoughts on the roofing situation yet - it would be prettier as a wooden pergola with vines but a little dangerous what with the open flames of the grill 😄

I considered for a while whether the grill and pizza oven should swap sides (though I assume you thought through which one should be positioned where) because most of the grills that I've seen have been increasingly difficult to clean or at least they start to look increasingly 'ashy' throughout use. But this is easily solvable with cover and with grilling being the more social of the two activities, it makes sense for this to be in front of the leisure room 🎉

I also wondered whether the smoke from the pizza oven would start to stain the sunroom glass #14 but came to the conclusion this can mostly be directed and/or stayed ontop of and the grease smoke from the grill would be worse anyway ☺️ The gap between this and the sunroom should be plenty anyway.

The draining board for the sink will count as counter space anyway (I had considered whether it was strictly required given counter space is at a premium in an outside cooking area) so works great 👍

I think your costs a little on the low side (i.e. I think the quotes we get will be more expensive for the structure) but we can research this. I'm estimating it's be more like €2,500.

Thank you again for the many hours spent on this. 😍

nelsonic commented 5 years ago

@iteles thanks for the feedback and confirming that you don't want to change anything. 👍

I agree with your assessment that €2,500 might be closer to the final cost of this mini project. Especially if we don't get competing quotes up-front before work starts ... 🙄

Roofing will be the leftover tiles from our roof (if they haven't been thrown away ...) I fully intend to cover it in trellis netting and a passion fruit vine. The roofing is merely to protect the metal of the BBQ and Oven from the weather. And as you have noted, above by having a weather protected area we can get creative with the back wall.

Agreed, shelving below the sink (to be added later) will be for cleaning products and either side of the sink will be for storing the items related to each type of cooking.

Extra counter space will be determined as needed. We could make a multi-purpose size-appropriate shelf above the counter that could fit raw pizzas (ready for cooking) and keep the counter adjacent to the pizza oven clear (with a plate) ready for cooked ones. Again, I have not drawn these into the concept art because the builders don't care about the details they only need to know the idea and positioning.

All enhancement should be opened as independent issues and worked on as micro-projects. I think the minimalist design above lends itself to much extension. 👍

I agree that it might be best to limit the use of oven or grill to avoid chaos. Thought we might have a member who is particularly effective at coordinating the space and wants to have freshly baked bread, pitas or naan with their BBQ ... 💭😋

We still have a can of chalkboard paint (leftover from prev project) so worth testing it out. 👍 (I agree that it might be "a little dark", but counter that the contrast with the white wall and surrounding plants might look really good) TBD ... 👍

I'm keen on having an above counter drying rack: https://github.com/nelsonic/crockery-drying-storage-rack/issues/3 That is not the focus of the design (above) because, as you say, it can (will) be added later. I think we can do a much better job of designing outdoor friendly crockery storage and CNC will make it easy to make (and iterate on if we need to improve it over time).

In order to store crockery (plates and cups), cutlery and utensils outside, we will need to research outdoor-friendly crockery (because we don't want glass/ceramic in the garden where it will inevitably break and leave shards that people will step on...) 🔍📝💡 💸

I wish sustainable outdoor-friendly crockery wasn't so extortionate ... I really like the Bamboo ones: https://www.amazon.co.uk/8-Pieces-Tableware-Biodegradable-Dinnerware/dp/B07W4J8XZN

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32947288663.html

An MVP could be Palm Leaf Plates https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07SN6CK5V They are re-usable and compostable so we will encourage washing them and when they get "old" we put them in the compost and crack open a new set?

I obvs prefer the more durable Bamboo ones because they are better in the longer term. Maybe we can ask Em nicely to help us source Bamboo tableware at a reasonable price ... 💭

Always a pleasure to drive ideas/design forward. Great to get your feedback. (would also like it if you have more time to pair on next designs ...)

iteles commented 5 years ago

All enhancement should be opened as independent issues and worked on as micro-projects. I think the minimalist design above lends itself to much extension.

👍 Totally agree. Once the time for extensions come, I'll open them as separate issues.

And yes on the sustainable outdoor tableware 🎉

I originally thought it would be nice to use a stone or two that we'd taken from opening up the dining room wall and using them as part of the bbq area, but practically speaking, this would overcomplicate things and given that the stones aren't quite square, it probably wouldn't look visually appealing.

would also like it if you have more time to pair on next designs ...

❤️ Would love this, let's do it.

nelsonic commented 3 years ago

The Physics of Good Pizza: physics-of-pizza.pdf via: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26142082

nelsonic commented 2 years ago

https://eu.gozney.com/products/dome?variant=34295553753220

FC288646-64BC-4BD7-A818-909E60273BA4

2BD78E12-AA76-416D-87FA-6C4CDDB02B30

A2D5C018-375B-4117-B407-0A5D43855623

nelsonic commented 2 years ago

Our friend Andrew Mcharg is co-founder of https://eastpizzasdough.com/ 27898AFB-81F8-428A-8FA7-083361A19C0F

he recommends this oven because it’s multi-fuel. Basically you can use exclusively gas, wood or both. Gas is great for consistency. Wood is good for flavour and “leoparding” - real word. https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/77486/what-are-the-keys-to-leopard-spotting-pizza-crust

The oven heats up to 500+*C, fits 2 pizzas at once and cooks them in 7 mins.

It looks siiiiiick and apparently gives incredible results. Obvs can’t justify this cost right now, but when I win the lottery, will definitely get one. 😋