Notion

[nelsonic]

https://youtu.be/m9S5I3pWz94

https://www.notion.so/product

https://www.notion.so/pricing

Really wish I had just got cracking on working on my vision for the "App" years ago instead of doing client work ... 😞 Notion has many of the features I had in mind. https://github.com/dwyl/product-roadmap/issues/9 and it comprehensively proves that people want an app that has multiple functionality and thus replaces having several other apps to achieve a given workflow!

Why I'm still very optimistic/upbeat: Notion is a VC backed company: https://www.notion.so/about

That means they will ultimately sell to another bigger company and your data will be their "asset". https://investor.fitbit.com/press/press-releases/press-release-details/2019/Fitbit-to-Be-Acquired-by-Google/default.aspx

So if you don't want all of your personal data to end up in the hands of a company that will mine it and add it to your ad targeting profile, there's only one way to go: Open Source.

We are going to build several features similar to Notion. So our Product Manager / Product Owner / UX Lead should be intimately familiar with it. Thankfully, I can see an opportunity for improvement in almost every area of their UX. 👍

[iteles]

Note: I have been invited to edit documents in Notion before and never really knew it did more than that, as there were no flags to alert me to this - it could be argued this is a good thing because it encourages focus.

There are two things that really bug me about notion:

1. There are a LOT of options straight off the bat which is both great and 'woah'. I find that the full page 'document' view is so massive that it turns my thoughts into one amorphous blob of 'everything' rather than encouraging me to find a starting point.

2. The lack of visual differentiation between my content and the app's options/menu bar - this mind-meld of having everything undifferentiated may be minimalistic but it lacks at-a-glance structure and order:

[nelsonic]

Thomas Frank's latest video is Sponsored by Notion ... 🙄 https://youtu.be/2Les3lZaE3w

[nelsonic]

This feedback is gold! https://medium.com/diesdas-direct/notion-encourages-busy-work-and-im-tired-of-it-b1e049edb663 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23050204

[nelsonic]

https://www.notion.so/personal free for personal use with restrictions:

They still have a "Personal Pro" plan with additional features:

The "guests" are not "collaborators" they can see your stuff but cannot work with you on it.

The feedback on HN is very insightful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23236786

[nelsonic]

https://medium.com/diesdas-direct/notion-encourages-busy-work-and-im-tired-of-it-b1e049edb663

[nelsonic]

Just in case this Medium article mysteriously disappears (happens all the time), here's the PDF: Notion-encourages-busy-work-and-I’m-tired-of-it-_-by-Harry-Keller.pdf

[nelsonic]

https://blog.luap.info/we-deserve-better-than-confluence-and-notion.html Via: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28670838 PDF: We-deserve-better-than-Confluence-and-Notion.pdf

[LuchoTurtle]

I haven't properly used Notion for quite a while. There was a time when I wanted to "organize" all my life into Notion and it temporarily worked for me. @nelsonic said in the standup that I was trying to do this when Notion wasn't designed for it, but I disagree. It is marketed to be a "tool for everything" kind of software and it is specially marketed amongst "productivity YouTubers" to be used as an "all-purpose" tool, either be it for meal-prepping or scheduling or team organization (as you can create teams and share pages within Notion).

I like the idea of Notion. I still do, mostly because I don't want to have an app for every little thing I do (although I know the merits that there are occasions of having two apps that do a great job at what they do is much better than having a not-so-good app that tries to encompass both of the former).

But I quickly ran into page performance issues (both on web and mobile) when I started adding more information when trying to log my workouts. Additionally, the navigation experience (at least on mobile) is a bit frustrating, coupled with long loading times. I can't navigate the breadcrumbs tree freely, I have to go up and down. This is best shown in the video below.

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/17494745/214014847-d6b2f113-22ec-4061-9954-a82192cc5f41.mp4

Again, I like the idea of there's so much I can do with Notion. Embedding Google Docs files (which I now use for better workout logging), creating to-do lists, tables, "databases", timelines, calendars, kanban boards and organising our "life" in pages with these building blocks, all the while having the option to share this in a team environment if we wish to do so.

However, it feels like too much. But I'm more worried about how it can scale. It's a shame I don't have fast response times when I'm just trying to write some logs and tick off some to-do lists.

I really like minimalism. I like only having strictly the necessary (vinyl is an obvious exception) and I like to keep my mobile/computer organized and use as few apps as possible. Notion unfortunately (for me, at least) fell into the trap of trying to do too much and please everyone, which is fine, it's striving to encompass everything into a single platform.

I might give Notion a whirl again, as it sounds counterintuitive when I say that I like having few apps when Notion is good for that since it tries to gobble everything into its platform. But I feel like many of the features they have are not needed at all, and it's probably the root of some of the performance issues I keep on facing.

[nelsonic]

@LuchoTurtle thank you very much for adding your comment on Notion as someone who has used it. 🎉 Especially, thanks for including the screen recording of your _actual_usage + data. 📺 You have clearly given Notion a decent chunk of your time to build up to that point. ⏳ And the fact you still have it on your Smartphone shows you either still use it or at least occasionally refer to it. 👍

Your Notion homepage has a bunch of categories:

• ⛰️ Home
• 🍽️ Food & Meal Prep
• 🏋️ Fitness
• 🎓 Master's
• 🧑‍💻 Self-development
• 🤠 Life
• 💊 Unilabs

As you say, this is the intended use for Notion; to have various categories of things you can store/track in their App. But when it comes to it, everything you can do inside Notion can be done better in a different App. It's not the best for Meal Planning / Tracking or Fitness Tracking or any of the other things you use(d) it for. It's not designed to be. It's designed to be a "general purpose" notes and Rich Text Editor.

I'm very well aware of the fact that there are many YouTubers that promote Notion as the their "Favourite Note-taking App" and the Saviour for all "Personal Productivity". And plenty of people use Notion thinking it's "all that" ... But for every one person that succeeds with using Notion, I'd bet €100k that there are 10 who fail. And it's not the fault of the person using Notion, rather it's poor design/implementation.

People like your fine self who see a well polished Landing Page, YouTube (Ad) or hear about it on other Social Media, and think: "Wow! That sounds like it's going to solve all my problems!" And then after pouring hours/days/weeks/months into Notion they realise that the interface is suboptimal and stop using it. Even Worse: they think to themselves that there's something "wrong" with them because if {Famous YouTuber XYZ} is using it successfully then it can't be Notion's fault ... But it is!! Notion isn't designed to be the best at anything it does. It's designed to be "good enough". So the people who ultimately fail to reach their Weight Loss / Fitness, Life Organising/Tracking, etc. Goals because they used a flawed system are the ones who suffer.

Take a look at Superhuman: https://github.com/dwyl/product-ux-research/issues/20 This is a single-focus/purpose App just for email. It does one thing incredibly well. It doesn't have a Calendar (yet!) or any other feature you would consider "complimentary". Just email. Really, reeeeaaally well. ✅ And if Superhuman can capture even a small portion of the email market, it's a Billon Dollar Business.

Back to Notion, again I will re-iterate my point: Notion wasn't designed to be the best meal-planning app. But the people who use Notion have gotten used to their mediocre UI/UX that does some of what they need. So Notion gets used for things it's not intentionally designed for. Much the way that people use Microsoft Excel for meal-planning:

But Microsoft Excel was definitely not designed for this purpose. When someone uses a general purpose app like Microsoft Word or Excel to create a rudimentary "system", they are doing all the work for defining that imperfect system.

If we take the example of this "Food Diary" - which I hope @pratik-IDWT won't mind me sharing annoymously ... It's a great example of an "MVP" for meal planning. They have a Meal Ideas/Recipes and Freezer tab

The "Meal Ideas/Recipes" are either meals they already know how to make or they links to where they can read the actual recipe, or in the case of "Buffalo Chicken Wings" (row 25 in the spreadsheet), a recipe that was received via WhatsApp.

The "Freezer" tab of the Sheet has their meal inventory:

The point is this: this Google Spreadsheet works for them. 🎉 They have a clear meal plan/calendar and know exactly what they are eating each day. But Google Sheets is not designed to be a meal planner, it's used that way by people who haven't found [the need for] a better system. For every 1 person/couple who is successful at using Excel for their meal planning, there are 1000 people who aren't. Look no further than the Obesity Epidemic for evidence.

Notion is a Note Taking App that allows you to categorise different types of notes. It's not a Gym Workout Tracking App. but you can use it to track your gym sessions. Speaking of which, did Notion help you achieve you chizzled abs, 300lb deadlift or 4 minute mile? 🤷‍♂️ No. it didn't. Because it's not designed to!! It's a Note Taking App that some people have repurposed for other things. Obvs, Not saying you should "blame" Notion for anyone not achieving all of Fitness Goals. Just want you understand the difference between a purpose built app like MyFitnessPal (which you appear to also use)

General-purpose Apps are good for allowing people to create their own system. But the person creating their own system has to do all the work (even if there's a "Template"). There's no built-in scheduler, reminder, buddy system, etc.

Let me re-iterate my point regarding having purpose-built "Mini Apps" for each type of thing that needs to be done: I don't want to have separate apps. I want them all to integrate seamlessly into the dwyl app. So for tracking reading there will be a Reading Tracker. It won't be a separate App it's just a "Mini App" within the "SuperApp". The "SuperApp" will provide the "core" functionality like Todo List, Calendar and, yes, Notes! But when you need to keep track of your Weight Loss / Muscle Gain goals which are in essence a "Todo List item", you break out into a Mini App that is purpose built for that very specific/specialised function. Not a Note-taking app that gets used for everything but does everything poorly!

The idea of building "Mini Apps" is that each one can be highly optimised. So the "page performance" and "navigation" issues you faced in Notion don't ever happen.

Totally agree with minimalism as a principal. That's what I'm going for with Progressive UI/UX^TM https://github.com/dwyl/product-roadmap/issues/43 If the UI Element doesn't need to be on the page, it should be hidden until the person discovers/learns it.

Definitely keep us posted with your use of Notion. I hear they're hiring: https://www.notion.so/careers 🎉

[nelsonic]

Pricing: https://www.notion.so/pricing