You should look at GNU Hyperbole

[rswgnu]

I think its easily programmable hyper-button types will solve many of the problems you are trying to solve with eev but more generally and in a better documented fashion, allowing you to work on more of the higher level issues you want to pursue.

[edrx]

Hi Robert,

the design principles of eev and Hyperbole are too different! I think that the "right way" right now is to build a bridge between eev and Hyperbole, with a mini-tutorial of Hyperbole for eev users (I'm working on a version 0.0 of that right now, with "eev users" being "me"), and something correspondent in the other direction...

Can I send some questions? They will have some eev-isms in them, but note that you can run all their hyperlinks in them with `C-e C-x C-e' if you have done this:

(require 'eev-load)

You don't even need the eev-mode keybindings.

I installed Hyperbole from ELPA and these are some of my first relevant elisp hyperlinks:

(find-epackage 'hyperbole) (code-c-d "elpa" "~/.emacs.d/elpa/") (code-c-d "hyperbole" "~/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-7.0.2/" "hyperbole") (find-elpafile "hyperbole-readme.txt") (find-elpafile "" ""hyperbole) (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO" "Action Key is {M-RET}") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO" "Assist Key is {C-u M-RET}") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO" "Press the Action Key within this <(button)>")

(find-hyperbolenode "") (find-hyperbolenode "Installation") (find-hyperbolenode "Buttons")

(eek "M-h M-k M-RET ;; hkey-either") (find-efunctiondescr 'hkey-either) (find-efunction 'hkey-either) (find-efunction 'action-key) (find-efunction 'assist-key)

Here are my first questions...

1. How does hyperbole know that when I open this file

   (find-fline "~/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-7.0.2/DEMO") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO")

it has to fontify the strings like "<(button)>"? The file seems to be in fundamental mode to me...

2. Can you give me a sexp that will perform the same action as M-RET does when I type it on "<(button)>"? And on "<(keyboard macros)>"? And on "<(glossary)>"?

   Thanks in advance!!! Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev

On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 02:26, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

I think its easily programmable hyper-button types will solve many of the priblems you are trying to solve with eev but more generally and in a better documented fashion, allowing you to work on more of the higher level issues you want to pursue.

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edrx/eev/issues/1, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA3OYWYCNFJ4SAMRTBMU36LPRFJZJANCNFSM4HHCBIQA .

[rswgnu]

On Apr 20, 2019, at 10:42 AM, Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi Robert,

the design principles of eev and Hyperbole are too different! I think that the "right way" right now is to build a bridge between eev and Hyperbole, with a mini-tutorial of Hyperbole for eev users (I'm working on a version 0.0 of that right now, with "eev users" being "me"), and something correspondent in the other direction...

Sounds good.

Can I send some questions? They will have some eev-isms in them,

Sure.

but note that you can run all their hyperlinks in them with `C-e C-x C-e' if you have done this:

(require 'eev-load)

You don't even need the eev-mode keybindings.

I installed Hyperbole from ELPA and these are some of my first relevant elisp hyperlinks:

(find-epackage 'hyperbole) (code-c-d "elpa" "~/.emacs.d/elpa/") (code-c-d "hyperbole" "~/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-7.0.2/" "hyperbole") (find-elpafile "hyperbole-readme.txt") (find-elpafile "" ""hyperbole) (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO" "Action Key is {M-RET}") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO" "Assist Key is {C-u M-RET}") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO" "Press the Action Key within this <(button)>")

(find-hyperbolenode "") (find-hyperbolenode "Installation") (find-hyperbolenode "Buttons")

(eek "M-h M-k M-RET ;; hkey-either") (find-efunctiondescr 'hkey-either) (find-efunction 'hkey-either) (find-efunction 'action-key) (find-efunction 'assist-key)

I think there are simpler ways to add these as you get familiar with Hyperbole, for example, an action key click on “!simple” will load the elisp of simple.el. But if they work well for you them that is sufficient.

Here are my first questions...

1. How does hyperbole know that when I open this file

(find-fline "~/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-7.0.2/DEMO") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO")

it has to fontify the strings like "<(button)>"? The file seems to be in fundamental mode to me...

2. Can you give me a sexp that will perform the same action as M-RET does when I type it on "<(button)>"? And on "<(keyboard macros)>"? And on "<(glossary)>"?

Thanks in advance!!! Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev

On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 02:26, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

I think its easily programmable hyper-button types will solve many of the priblems you are trying to solve with eev but more generally and in a better documented fashion, allowing you to work on more of the higher level issues you want to pursue.

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edrx/eev/issues/1, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA3OYWYCNFJ4SAMRTBMU36LPRFJZJANCNFSM4HHCBIQA .

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[rswgnu]

On Apr 20, 2019, at 10:42 AM, Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi Robert,. Here are my first questions...

1. How does hyperbole know that when I open this file

(find-fline "~/.emacs.d/elpa/hyperbole-7.0.2/DEMO") (find-hyperbolefile "DEMO")

it has to fontify the strings like "<(button)>"? The file seems to be in fundamental mode to me...

A file read hook is added that fontifies explicit buttons in all buffers.

2. Can you give me a sexp that will perform the same action as M-RET does when I type it on "<(button)>"? And on "<(keyboard macros)>"? And on "<(glossary)>"?

(action-key) and (assist-key) for the complementary help key, though point has to be on the button to activate it.

Thanks in advance!!!

You’re welcome.

Bob

[edrx]

Nope, action-key on these hbuttons

<(button)> <(Smart Mouse Keys)> <(toggle-scroll-proportional)>

is not the same as running these sexps

(button) (Smart Mouse Keys) (toggle-scroll-proportional)

in the file DEMO... and when I copied the <(...)>s to another file and try to type M-RET on them I get this "hypb:error":

(Hyperbole Action Key): No action defined for this context; try another location.

Hyperbole does look interesting, but I am getting the impression that our design principles are not only different, they are OPPOSITE! Let me copy here a paragraph that I sent to Stefan Monnier in a discussion a few weeks ago... I'll uppercase some parts for emphasis, and add some [...]s.

 "I've met many people over the years who have been Forth
 enthusiasts in the past, and we often end up discussing what made
 Forth so thrilling to use at that time - and what we can do to
 adapt its ideas to the computers of today. My personal impression
 is that Forth's main points were not the ones that I listed at
 the beginning of this section, and that I said that were easy to
 quantify; rather, what was most important was that NOTHING WAS
 HIDDEN, there were NO COMPLEX DATA STRUCTURES around with
 "don't-look-at-this" parts (think on garbage collection in Lua,
 for example, and Lua's tables - [in Lua] BEGINNERS NEED TO BE
 CONVINCED TO SEE THESE THINGS ABSTRACTLY, as the concrete details
 of the implementation are hard), and everything [in Forth] -
 code, data, dictionaries, stacks - were just linear sequences of
 bytes, that could be read and modified directly if we wished to.
 We had TOTAL FREEDOM, defining new words was quick, and
 experiments were quick to make; that gave us a sense of power
 that was totally different from, say, the one that a Python user
 feels today because he has huge libraries at his fingertips."

 (From: http://angg.twu.net/miniforth-article.html)

My experience with eev is that people have very short attention spans. I have at most two minutes to show each of the basic principles -

1) "Lisp can be run from anywhere in Emacs",

2) "use on red-star lines to open a terminal running an interpreter and make it the target buffer, and on non-red-star lines to send these lines to the target",

and I've tried to prepare material to use these 2 minutes, or 2+2 minutes at most, the best that I can...

I've spent 6 HOURS on Hyperbole in the last days - about 2 of those writing these e-mails - and I still haven't found neither:

1) the code that fontifies the "<(...)>"s - though this message

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2016-07/msg00004.html

 MAY have a hint,

2) the function that processes the body of a "<(...)>" - I mean, I was able to find these, but I didn't go very far from there...

   (eek "M-h M-k M-RET  ;; hkey-either")
   (find-efunctiondescr   'hkey-either)
   (find-efunction        'hkey-either)
   (find-efunction        'action-key)
   (find-efunction        'assist-key)

3) the list of regexps that should be at the core of this idea from https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/:

 "Buttons and Smart Keys: A set of hyperbutton types which supply
 core hypertext and other behaviors. Buttons may be added to
 documents (explicit buttons) with a simple drag between windows,
 no markup language needed. Implicit buttons are patterns of
 regular text that Hyperbole recognizes and then uses to perform
 specified actions, e.g. bug#24568 displays the bug status
 information for that bug number."

This is incredibly frustrating. You are probably not going to answer anything useful, and my attention window for learning Hyperbole will close. =( =( =(

Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev

P.S.: did you take a look at these section of the eev tutorials? In the third one I've included a link to a video - just watch it between "t=16s" and "t=30s".

(find-eev-quick-intro "2. Evaluating Lisp") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#2

(find-eev-quick-intro "3. Elisp hyperlinks") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#3

(find-eev-quick-intro "6.1. The main key: ") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#6.1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj_zKC5BR64&t=16s

(find-eval-intro "7. Pos-spec-lists") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eval-intro.html#7

On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 at 15:49, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

A file read hook is added that fontifies explicit buttons in all buffers.

(action-key) and (assist-key) for the complementary help key, though point has to be on the button to activate it.

[rswgnu]

Yes, Hyperbole is largely meant to be used interactively through its abstract interfaces. As you noted, people have short attention spans. Hyperbole has been developed across years so there is a lot there to understand under the covers, especially in how the Smart Keys are so smart.

But if you understand Lisp well and we chat a bit, I can probably point you to the parts you want.

-- Bob

[edrx]

On IRC? I use the nick "edrx" on FreeNode. I'm there now. Cheers =), Eduardo Ochs

On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 at 17:28, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

Yes, Hyperbole is largely meant to be used interactively through its abstract interfaces. As you noted, people have short attention spans. Hyperbole has been developed across years so there is a lot there to understand under the covers, especially in how the Smart Keys are so smart.

But if you understand Lisp well and we chat a bit, I can probably point you to the parts you want.

-- Bob

— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edrx/eev/issues/1#issuecomment-485280174, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA3OYW4NONM5JF4H3RFVCP3PRTE5BANCNFSM4HHCBIQA .

[rswgnu]

For each explicit button in a directory there is a corresponding entry in the .hypb or _hypb file in the same directory that specifies the button type and the arguments sent to the button’s action (specified by the type).

I feel complex systems are made user friendly by building them out of abstract components that simplify the end user interfaces.

I see your point about Forth in terms of programming languages but not other systems. Look at the human body. We survive in part because of our involuntary systems and people navigate the world mostly without any sense of their own biology or the complexity of their cells and organs.

Your needs in wanting to interface Hyperbole to eev are different and I would like to help but I expect you will have to have some patience in learning internals of the system. There are abstract interfaces that you can use too.

-- Bob

On Apr 21, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Nope, action-key on these hbuttons

<(button)> <(Smart Mouse Keys)> <(toggle-scroll-proportional)>

is not the same as running these sexps

(button) (Smart Mouse Keys) (toggle-scroll-proportional)

in the file DEMO... and when I copied the <(...)>s to another file and try to type M-RET on them I get this "hypb:error":

(Hyperbole Action Key): No action defined for this context; try another location.

Hyperbole does look interesting, but I am getting the impression that our design principles are not only different, they are OPPOSITE! Let me copy here a paragraph that I sent to Stefan Monnier in a discussion a few weeks ago... I'll uppercase some parts for emphasis, and add some [...]s.

"I've met many people over the years who have been Forth enthusiasts in the past, and we often end up discussing what made Forth so thrilling to use at that time - and what we can do to adapt its ideas to the computers of today. My personal impression is that Forth's main points were not the ones that I listed at the beginning of this section, and that I said that were easy to quantify; rather, what was most important was that NOTHING WAS HIDDEN, there were NO COMPLEX DATA STRUCTURES around with "don't-look-at-this" parts (think on garbage collection in Lua, for example, and Lua's tables - [in Lua] BEGINNERS NEED TO BE CONVINCED TO SEE THESE THINGS ABSTRACTLY, as the concrete details of the implementation are hard), and everything [in Forth] - code, data, dictionaries, stacks - were just linear sequences of bytes, that could be read and modified directly if we wished to. We had TOTAL FREEDOM, defining new words was quick, and experiments were quick to make; that gave us a sense of power that was totally different from, say, the one that a Python user feels today because he has huge libraries at his fingertips."

(From: http://angg.twu.net/miniforth-article.html)

My experience with eev is that people have very short attention spans. I have at most two minutes to show each of the basic principles -

1) "Lisp can be run from anywhere in Emacs",

2) "use on red-star lines to open a terminal running an interpreter and make it the target buffer, and on non-red-star lines to send these lines to the target",

and I've tried to prepare material to use these 2 minutes, or 2+2 minutes at most, the best that I can...

I've spent 6 HOURS on Hyperbole in the last days - about 2 of those writing these e-mails - and I still haven't found neither:

1) the code that fontifies the "<(...)>"s - though this message

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2016-07/msg00004.html

MAY have a hint,

2) the function that processes the body of a "<(...)>" - I mean, I was able to find these, but I didn't go very far from there...

(eek "M-h M-k M-RET ;; hkey-either") (find-efunctiondescr 'hkey-either) (find-efunction 'hkey-either) (find-efunction 'action-key) (find-efunction 'assist-key)

3) the list of regexps that should be at the core of this idea from https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/:

"Buttons and Smart Keys: A set of hyperbutton types which supply core hypertext and other behaviors. Buttons may be added to documents (explicit buttons) with a simple drag between windows, no markup language needed. Implicit buttons are patterns of regular text that Hyperbole recognizes and then uses to perform specified actions, e.g. bug#24568 displays the bug status information for that bug number."

This is incredibly frustrating. You are probably not going to answer anything useful, and my attention window for learning Hyperbole will close. =( =( =(

Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev

P.S.: did you take a look at these section of the eev tutorials? In the third one I've included a link to a video - just watch it between "t=16s" and "t=30s".

(find-eev-quick-intro "2. Evaluating Lisp") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#2

(find-eev-quick-intro "3. Elisp hyperlinks") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#3

(find-eev-quick-intro "6.1. The main key: ") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html#6.1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj_zKC5BR64&t=16s

(find-eval-intro "7. Pos-spec-lists") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eval-intro.html#7

On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 at 15:49, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

A file read hook is added that fontifies explicit buttons in all buffers.

(action-key) and (assist-key) for the complementary help key, though point has to be on the button to activate it.

— You are receiving this because you authored the thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

[rswgnu]

Have you tried to use any of Hyperbole’s features as laid out in the DEMO file in your work or are you exclusively looking at it for interfacing to eev?

-- Bob

[edrx]

I was able to use some of them, but then I tried to understand how they worked under the hood and I got lost.

On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 at 18:03, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

Have you tried to use any of Hyperbole’s features as laid out in the DEMO file in your work or are you exclusively looking at it for interfacing to eev?

-- Bob

— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edrx/eev/issues/1#issuecomment-485282250, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA3OYWYPGSUPKCBERARMNN3PRTJDRANCNFSM4HHCBIQA .

[bradyt]

The phone number has not been completely deleted. You've left it in the quoted message at https://github.com/edrx/eev/issues/1#issuecomment-485282267.

[edrx]

Deleted. Robert, I still don't have your e-mail.

[rswgnu]

Yes, let’s move to direct email, rsw@gnu.org, which is a public address.

-- Bob

On Apr 21, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Deleted. Robert, I still don't have your e-mail.

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

[rswgnu]

Thanks for the deletions.

[rswgnu]

On Apr 21, 2019, at 3:34 PM, Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Nope, action-key on these hbuttons

<(button)> <(Smart Mouse Keys)> <(toggle-scroll-proportional)>

is not the same as running these sexps

(button) (Smart Mouse Keys) (toggle-scroll-proportional)

in the file DEMO...

Right, the explicit button delimiters are not Lisp sexpressions, so there is no relation but action-key is the function that activates such buttons.

and when I copied the <(...)>s to another file and try to type M-RET on them I get this "hypb:error":

(Hyperbole Action Key): No action defined for this context; try another location.

Yes, unfortunately we have never implemented inter-buffer explicit button copying.

Hyperbole does look interesting, but I am getting the impression that our design principles are not only different, they are OPPOSITE!

Probably, if you mean everything associated with a hyperbutton should be visible and embedded within the button’s buffer. We wanted the in-buffer markup to be minimal.

Bob

[edrx]

Update: after these messages in the Hyperbole mailing list I gave up trying to learn Hyperbole - or assigned a very low priority to the task "learn Hyperbole". I am closing this issue. =(

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/msg00013.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/threads.html#00013

[rswgnu]

Hi Eduardo:

Not sure why after the pointers I provided for easy integration of Hyperbole implicit buttons with eev that you found that inadequate. As I said, if you could just send either individual questions or a message with a list of questions, we could answer and help guide you but it is difficult to process long messages with all sorts of information and questions intermixed, just due to time constraints.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:04 AM Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Update: after these messages in the Hyperbole mailing list I gave up trying to learn Hyperbole - or assigned a very low priority to the task "learn Hyperbole". I am closing this issue. =(

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/msg00013.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/threads.html#00013

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[edrx]

Hi Robert,

I found Hyperbole too difficult for me - probably because I am very bad at using the computer "as a user"... I was spending many hours, or often days, to understand features that I guess that most people grok very quickly by trial and error, and then after that many hours to write each e-mail with questions, and then still some more time to understand the answers. I was expecting that at some point you would take a look at eev, try its tutorial, and would understand how I use it to make this kind of technical communication much quicker and more precise - or at least you would find a way to translate its ideas to Hyperbole...

Let's try again when you have time to try eev! =\ Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 at 13:03, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi Eduardo:

Not sure why after the pointers I provided for easy integration of Hyperbole implicit buttons with eev that you found that inadequate. As I said, if you could just send either individual questions or a message with a list of questions, we could answer and help guide you but it is difficult to process long messages with all sorts of information and questions intermixed, just due to time constraints.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:04 AM Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Update: after these messages in the Hyperbole mailing list I gave up trying to learn Hyperbole - or assigned a very low priority to the task "learn Hyperbole". I am closing this issue. =(

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/msg00013.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/threads.html#00013

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edrx/eev/issues/1#issuecomment-752417982, or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AE5WPD7VSRWB23W5BWVKYHTSXMCKZANCNFSM4HHCBIQA

.

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[rswgnu]

Thanks for the clear explanation. I will get back to you when I have time to evaluate eev.

-- Bob

On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

 Hi Robert,

I found Hyperbole too difficult for me - probably because I am very bad at using the computer "as a user"... I was spending many hours, or often days, to understand features that I guess that most people grok very quickly by trial and error, and then after that many hours to write each e-mail with questions, and then still some more time to understand the answers. I was expecting that at some point you would take a look at eev, try its tutorial, and would understand how I use it to make this kind of technical communication much quicker and more precise - or at least you would find a way to translate its ideas to Hyperbole...

Let's try again when you have time to try eev! =\ Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/#eev

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 at 13:03, Robert Weiner notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi Eduardo:

Not sure why after the pointers I provided for easy integration of Hyperbole implicit buttons with eev that you found that inadequate. As I said, if you could just send either individual questions or a message with a list of questions, we could answer and help guide you but it is difficult to process long messages with all sorts of information and questions intermixed, just due to time constraints.

On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:04 AM Eduardo Ochs notifications@github.com wrote:

Update: after these messages in the Hyperbole mailing list I gave up trying to learn Hyperbole - or assigned a very low priority to the task "learn Hyperbole". I am closing this issue. =(

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/msg00013.html

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/hyperbole-users/2020-09/threads.html#00013

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edrx/eev/issues/1#issuecomment-752417982, or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AE5WPD7VSRWB23W5BWVKYHTSXMCKZANCNFSM4HHCBIQA

.

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