Open WilliamEKimberly opened 4 years ago
harshaxnim
commented
4 years ago Hi @WilliamEKimberly,
I would like to help you out here.
I am one of the collaborators on this project (a very tiny part to be honest compared to the awesome work done by @edwardball). More importantly, I like the idea of giving kids (or anyone for that matter) an intuition for science that will stay with them for life.
Can you please elaborate on what exactly you want to do with the orbit simulator?
Regards, Harsh
WilliamEKimberly
commented
4 years ago Hi Harsh and thank you very much for your interest.
As I think of the hundreds of hours I spend learning math (in the days before calculators & computers), I now view many of them “wasted.” So the question comes as to how could we make better use of all that effort today? One way might be to try to give kids some intuition of how the world works, at an age long before they could (or should) be concerned with the underlying mathematics.
One could start simply, as with the sketch below. Just one parameter to vary.
For any those interested in going further, one might make the ball’s initial elevation also variable and the moon rotating… then let ‘em find out about synchronous orbits.
And so on….
As for me personally, at 76 I am loosing my mental abilities at an accelerating rate, and would consider participating in a project like this to be perhaps my life’s most important contribution. So count on me to help in any way I can.
One last thing: I have had some successes and plenty of failures, and learned the value of “Trial and Error.” I propose we treat this as an experiment: If it works, Great! Let’s do more!!!! If it doesn’t, let's modify or abandon it. Fair enough?
This letter sounds a bit like you have already accepted helping, and I realize that you were only asking for more info. Pardon me if I jumped the gun.
Once again my sincere thanks for your suggestion of interest,
Bill
On Apr 29, 2020, at 02:23, Harsh notifications@github.com wrote:
Hi @WilliamEKimberly https://github.com/WilliamEKimberly,
I would like to help you out here.
I am one of the collaborators on this project (a very tiny part to be honest compared to the awesome work done by @edwardball https://github.com/edwardball). More importantly, I like the idea of giving kids (or anyone for that matter) an intuition for science that will stay with them for life.
Can you please elaborate on what exactly you want to do with the orbit simulator?
Regards, Harsh
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edwardball/academo.org/issues/11#issuecomment-621033290, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APK2QQ3ZIVTZSYX72N7ZU5LRO7IWFANCNFSM4MRLQEYQ.
harshaxnim
commented
4 years ago Hi Mr. William,
I want to make sure I understand your correctly. :)
While I do not see a sketch attached, I assume that you want the first introductory step to have only one parameter so as to not overwhelm the child. In effect, we take a concept and break it into different levels of abstraction. The simplest would be one parameter like you've noted above.
I think we need to pay close attention to these levels of abstraction so that the child is able to successfully make the connections between them.
In conclusion, I particularly like this idea of increasing level of complexity and can already think of concepts, such as gravity, where it can be really useful. I remember learning the classical Newtonian gravity laws and was never induced the idea that this is only a level of abstraction that explains certain empirical observations, but gravity surely is much more complicated than that. When I was exposed to the concept of relativity, I felt a little thrown off because I wasn't even aware of it in all my years of schooling. I can see this idea is also capable of capturing the growth/evolution of the collective scientific knowledge.
Well, the devil is in the details; so, were you thinking of making a website that would use parts of this site, or be inspired by it?
-H
On Fri, 1 May 2020, 6:33 am WilliamEKimberly, notifications@github.com wrote:
Hi Harsh and thank you very much for your interest.
As I think of the hundreds of hours I spend learning math (in the days before calculators & computers), I now view many of them “wasted.” So the question comes as to how could we make better use of all that effort today? One way might be to try to give kids some intuition of how the world works, at an age long before they could (or should) be concerned with the underlying mathematics.
One could start simply, as with the sketch below. Just one parameter to vary.
For any those interested in going further, one might make the ball’s initial elevation also variable and the moon rotating… then let ‘em find out about synchronous orbits.
And so on….
As for me personally, at 76 I am loosing my mental abilities at an accelerating rate, and would consider participating in a project like this to be perhaps my life’s most important contribution. So count on me to help in any way I can.
One last thing: I have had some successes and plenty of failures, and learned the value of “Trial and Error.” I propose we treat this as an experiment: If it works, Great! Let’s do more!!!! If it doesn’t, let's modify or abandon it. Fair enough?
This letter sounds a bit like you have already accepted helping, and I realize that you were only asking for more info. Pardon me if I jumped the gun.
Once again my sincere thanks for your suggestion of interest,
Bill
On Apr 29, 2020, at 02:23, Harsh notifications@github.com wrote:
Hi @WilliamEKimberly https://github.com/WilliamEKimberly,
I would like to help you out here.
I am one of the collaborators on this project (a very tiny part to be honest compared to the awesome work done by @edwardball < https://github.com/edwardball>). More importantly, I like the idea of giving kids (or anyone for that matter) an intuition for science that will stay with them for life.
Can you please elaborate on what exactly you want to do with the orbit simulator?
Regards, Harsh
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub < https://github.com/edwardball/academo.org/issues/11#issuecomment-621033290>, or unsubscribe < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APK2QQ3ZIVTZSYX72N7ZU5LRO7IWFANCNFSM4MRLQEYQ .
— You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edwardball/academo.org/issues/11#issuecomment-622198132, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABUIINNJCLUOKA63WHMSZF3RPINU3ANCNFSM4MRLQEYQ .
WilliamEKimberly
commented
4 years ago Hi Again Harsh-
And pardon my delay in responding. I’m visiting my Grandchildren, and that makes a dent into…. everything.
Once again, thanks for your interest. I was pleased to see you thinking of how it could be extended…. I believe if this is done right it could be used in many areas, bringing a better understanding of the world to future generations.
Just to be clear as to what/who I am: Just a grandfather who spent too many hours of his youth learning stuff that is of little value today. Now that we have these tools, let’s use ’em to bring knowledge to kids at the age where they learn really fast, and hope future generations uses their time better than I used mine.
The real success will be if somehow more knowledge evolves into greater wisdom.
On May 3, 2020, at 07:03, Harsh notifications@github.com wrote:
Hi Mr. William,
I want to make sure I understand your correctly. :)
You got it. One simple step at a time…. Something kids will absorb in a few minutes, and then moving them step by step as far as possible, and “as far as possible” might just surprise us.
While I do not see a sketch attached, I assume that you want the first introductory step to have only one parameter so as to not overwhelm the child. In effect, we take a concept and break it into different levels of abstraction. The simplest would be one parameter like you've noted above.
Sketch included below. Hope you get it this time: Only one parameter variable at a time. I imagine keeping their interest for perhaps 5 minutes, but 5 minutes that will give them something that will seem “of course” for the rest of their lives.
- For any those interested in going further, one might make the ball’s initial elevation also variable and the moon rotating… then let ‘em find out about synchronous orbits.
Exactly!
I think we need to pay close attention to these levels of abstraction so that the child is able to successfully make the connections between them.
Exactly!
In conclusion, I particularly like this idea of increasing level of complexity and can already think of concepts, such as gravity, where it can be really useful. I remember learning the classical Newtonian gravity laws and was never induced the idea that this is only a level of abstraction that explains certain empirical observations, but gravity surely is much more complicated than that. When I was exposed to the concept of relativity, I felt a little thrown off because I wasn't even aware of it in all my years of schooling. I can see this idea is also capable of capturing the growth/evolution of the collective scientific knowledge.
You got it! I suspect one reason cutting edge physics seems to be stuck is that by the time young people absorb what is already known, they are past the age where they are likely to find the next step. Further, the tools we could develop here might be expanded a zillion areas.
Well, the devil is in the details; so, were you thinking of making a website that would use parts of this site, or be inspired by it?
What’s I’m thinking here is irrelevant. You know the tools you have available, I am only suggesting a direction.
-H
One last thing: If this is successful it could open many learning opportunities. I invite you to go forward in any way you choose. My name and contribution are irrelevant. I’d like to contribute what I can, but the important thing is what could be achieved if it works.
All the best, Bill Kimberly
edwardball
commented
4 years ago Hello @WilliamEKimberly thanks for your suggestion! And thanks too @harshaxnim for your queries. I've taken the above on-board and have created a simplified version of the orbit simulator which is now available here:
https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/
Bill, please let me know what you think about the new demo - if you would like to write new text to explain the concepts of the three orbits, please do let me know - you could put them in this thread and I will be happy to add them to the page.
Best wishes, Ed
WilliamEKimberly
commented
4 years ago Hi Ed, and thanks for your work, letter, and interest.
I’ve been traveling and a bit negligent in attending emall, so I saw your letter just this AM.
What you did with the “simple” orbit-simulator was certainly in the right direction. My mind has been elsewhere so I’ll need a couple of days to pick up just where we lift off (ahhh...the joys of old age).
Please allow me bit of time to get back to you with a more thoughtful response.
All the best, Bill
On Jul 23, 2020, at 13:00, Ed Ball notifications@github.com wrote:
Hello @WilliamEKimberly https://github.com/WilliamEKimberly thanks for your suggestion! And thanks too @harshaxnim https://github.com/harshaxnim for your queries. I've taken the above on-board and have created a simplified version of the orbit simulator which is now available here:
https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ Bill, please let me know what you think about the new demo - if you would like to write new text to explain the concepts of the three orbits, please do let me know - you could put them in this thread and I will be happy to add them to the page.
Best wishes, Ed
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edwardball/academo.org/issues/11#issuecomment-663149930, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APK2QQ2PVCU475TJ5PEYAKTR5B3EXANCNFSM4MRLQEYQ.
WilliamEKimberly
commented
4 years ago Oh and….. I just noticed that Harsh was still involved. I feared I had lost his interest. Please see that he knows I’m glad he’s still here.
There is a technical university in the town where I live (deep Mexico). It’s far from a world clase place, but as one learns to expect, some very good people can be found there. Once the Corona thing allows normalization, I’ll bet I can find more help there. With luck, what we are starting may have a future. :-)
Again, all the best, Bill
On Jul 23, 2020, at 13:00, Ed Ball notifications@github.com wrote:
Hello @WilliamEKimberly https://github.com/WilliamEKimberly thanks for your suggestion! And thanks too @harshaxnim https://github.com/harshaxnim for your queries. I've taken the above on-board and have created a simplified version of the orbit simulator which is now available here:
https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ Bill, please let me know what you think about the new demo - if you would like to write new text to explain the concepts of the three orbits, please do let me know - you could put them in this thread and I will be happy to add them to the page.
Best wishes, Ed
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edwardball/academo.org/issues/11#issuecomment-663149930, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APK2QQ2PVCU475TJ5PEYAKTR5B3EXANCNFSM4MRLQEYQ.
WilliamEKimberly
commented
4 years ago Hi Edward and Harsh!!
First thank you both taking an interest in and helping get the this project off the ground.
Very quickly stated:
The overall objective of this project is to give young people an intuitive understanding for things years before they could manage the underlying mathematics: Each young person who thinks “Of course” when they re-encounter these ideas later are a victory for the project.
What ideas? Well your Orbiter seems an excellent place to start. Stuff like that. I could give you a few more examples (and undoubtedly you will soon come up with more and better ones), but I don’t know your interest in going there yet.
Going ahead:
With the Overall Objective spelled out, it might be good to revamp where we started. The bold text below is from my May 1st letter to Harsh.
I will send you another letter with my observations of your Orbiter - Simplified.
All the best, Bill
Hi Harsh and thank you very much for your interest.
As I think of the hundreds of hours I spend learning math (in the days before calculators & computers), I now view many of them “wasted.” So the question arises as to how could we make better use of all those hours today? One way might be to try to give kids some intuition of how the world works, at an age long before they could (or should) be concerned with the underlying mathematics.
One could start simply, as with the sketch below. Just one parameter to vary.
For any those interested in going further, one might make the ball’s initial elevation also variable and the moon rotating… then let ‘em find out about synchronous orbits.
And so on….
As for me personally, at 76 I am loosing my mental abilities at an accelerating rate, and would consider participating in a project like this to be perhaps my life’s most important contribution. So count on me to help in any way I can.
One last thing: I have had some successes and plenty of failures, and learned the value of “Trial and Error.” I propose we treat this as an experiment: If it works, Great! Let’s do more!!!! If it doesn’t, let's modify or abandon it. Fair enough?
This letter sounds a bit like you have already accepted helping, and I realize that you were only asking for more info. Pardon me if I jumped the gun.
Once again my sincere thanks for your suggestion of interest,
Bill
Still in “followup mode” it seems the image I had attached to that same email didn’t make it either, so here is another attempt:
On Jul 23, 2020, at 13:00, Ed Ball notifications@github.com wrote:
Hello @WilliamEKimberly https://github.com/WilliamEKimberly thanks for your suggestion! And thanks too @harshaxnim https://github.com/harshaxnim for your queries. I've taken the above on-board and have created a simplified version of the orbit simulator which is now available here:
https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ Bill, please let me know what you think about the new demo - if you would like to write new text to explain the concepts of the three orbits, please do let me know - you could put them in this thread and I will be happy to add them to the page.
Best wishes, Ed
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edwardball/academo.org/issues/11#issuecomment-663149930, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APK2QQ2PVCU475TJ5PEYAKTR5B3EXANCNFSM4MRLQEYQ.
WilliamEKimberly
commented
4 years ago Hi again.
The simplifiied Orbit-simulator is clearly a step in the right direction.
1) It was easy to find a clear dividing line between Crash and Orbit at a starting speed of 60 and 61. Great!
2) The simplified interface kept my attention focused on just one parameter as desired.Great!
Finding the speeds on either side of the escape velocity was not so successful: -Simulations with starting speeds under 130 were fun. They would have been even more fun if the use of the Zoom was automated. -I believe identifying the escape velocity required skills not characteristic of young people: Once the moon went off-screen there was nothing do but wait and see if it returned. That was not a problem until the speed passed 134, but it became a real kill-joy above 137 when the moon was off-screen for a few minutes (3) at a time, and a disaster above 140 where I had to wait 3 hours to confirm the moon was still captive.
Other observations: -The slider to set the speed was of little use, It could be eliminated... nothing lost and some simplicity gained. -The text of the controls could be replaced with words typical of kids of the target age. -The Zoom control could be made automatic, making the lessons more intuitive. -Putting questions that could be answered with the tools provided could lead kids to what they were expected to find out.
The city where I live (Mexico) has a small technical university. It isn’t a great, but usually a few excellent students can be found there. Once this virus thing settles down, I could try to acquire more help there. If that works, perhaps the best use of your time would be teaching and guiding. Does that have any attraction for you? Oh and… Being neighbors to the USA, the kids that are really shooting for the top always know English, so there should be no language barrier..
All the best, Bill
PS: A suggested starting screen:
PS: A
On Jul 23, 2020, at 13:00, Ed Ball notifications@github.com wrote:
Hello @WilliamEKimberly https://github.com/WilliamEKimberly thanks for your suggestion! And thanks too @harshaxnim https://github.com/harshaxnim for your queries. I've taken the above on-board and have created a simplified version of the orbit simulator which is now available here:
https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ https://academo.org/demos/orbit-simulator-simple/ Bill, please let me know what you think about the new demo - if you would like to write new text to explain the concepts of the three orbits, please do let me know - you could put them in this thread and I will be happy to add them to the page.
Best wishes, Ed
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/edwardball/academo.org/issues/11#issuecomment-663149930, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APK2QQ2PVCU475TJ5PEYAKTR5B3EXANCNFSM4MRLQEYQ.
Hi Edward-
I'm a retired guy working on a project to bring an intuitive understanding of things to kids, long before they could (or even should) manage the underlying mathematics/physics (i.e. kids perhaps 8 to 12).
Your "orbit-simulator" fits great with the project, and I'm hoping you'd be willing to work with me a bit to build part of this project around it.
With the five initial parameters your program offers, it's wonderfully powerful. I suspect kids might be better off varying just the magnitude of the starting vector. My hope is with just that, and 5 minutes of play, they will discover the 3 types of paths a satellite can follow. My dream is that even if they end up studying dance they will have painlessly gained something of value...forever.
For kids who want more, one can go a step at a time, taking them on quite a journey.
Please let me know if you could help with this first step on a project I hope will soon be taken over by others (i.e. young people).
All the best, Bill Kimberly