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emacs-helm / helm

Emacs incremental completion and selection narrowing framework
https://emacs-helm.github.io/helm/
GNU General Public License v3.0
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helm-org.el have been removed it have now its own package helm-org #2185

Closed thierryvolpiatto closed 4 years ago

thierryvolpiatto commented 5 years ago

See https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm-org

alphapapa commented 5 years ago

Shouldn't it be a dependency of helm so it installs by default? Otherwise, most users will see the helm-org functions disappear when they upgrade helm, and they won't know why.

thierryvolpiatto commented 5 years ago

alphapapa notifications@github.com writes:

Shouldn't it be a dependency of helm so it installs by default? Otherwise, most users will see the helm-org functions disappear when they upgrade helm, and they won't know why.

No, clearly helm doesn't need helm-org to work, but helm-org needs helm to work, so I consider helm a dependency of helm-org package but not the contrary. If we go this way, we better have to reintegrate helm-org inside helm. Thus this defeat all the recent work I did on the helm package interface. I have clearly notified helm-org have been removed in the last release:

https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm/releases

-- Thierry

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alphapapa commented 5 years ago

No, clearly helm doesn't need helm-org to work, but helm-org needs helm to work, so I consider helm a dependency of helm-org package but not the contrary.

Yes, that is technically correct. However:

  1. Org itself is built-in to Emacs. It's not a third-party package. So it seems strange for Helm to not have the Org support installed by default.
  2. The helm package has had Org support by-default for many years. From users' perspective, suddenly it doesn't.

I have clearly notified helm-org have been removed in the last release:

Yes, but very few users will ever see those. I'm guessing that approximately 99.9% of Helm users simply do M-x package-list-packages and install all upgrades, which means that, from their perspective, the Org commands will simply disappear without warning.

Some of them will probably end up on /r/emacs and /r/orgmode asking what happened (I've already had to explain about the package split there). A few may ask on the Org mailing list. And a tiny fraction may end up on the Helm repo web site checking the release notes. I'm guessing that a substantial number may be frustrated with the commands disappearing, think that Helm is simply broken, and abandon it in favor of other packages. That would be a disappointing outcome.

If we go this way, we better have to reintegrate helm-org inside helm. Thus this defeat all the recent work I did on the helm package interface.

Sorry, I don't understand. Why can't helm-org simply be added to the dependencies for helm so it gets installed automatically? Then the commands would remain available for existing users.

alphapapa commented 5 years ago

Please note that this change has likely broken other packages that use Helm. I'm guessing that some of my Helm-and-Org-related packages are now broken by default, and that I'll have to go add dependencies on helm-org to them. If helm-org were installed by default, it would avoid this cascading breakage effect.

thierryvolpiatto commented 5 years ago

alphapapa notifications@github.com writes:

Please note that this change has likely broken other packages that use Helm. I'm guessing that some of my Helm-and-Org-related packages are now broken by default, and that I'll have to go add dependencies on helm-org to them. If helm-org were installed by default, it would avoid this cascading breakage effect.

Ok, so let's try adding helm-org as dependency, I will have to upgrade helm version as well.

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-- Thierry

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Compro-Prasad commented 5 years ago

@alphapapa You can easily change your dependency list to have helm-org instead of helm. This will make sure that both helm and helm-org are installed. Now we have a cyclic dependency issue. IMO helm-org has the correct dependencies. helm should be fully independent of any other third party dependencies as it is a dependency for many packages(including helm-org). The easier way would be to distribute helm-org along with helm itself but @thierryvolpiatto might have some concerns which led to helm-org being a separate package. helm-org if distributed separately must have helm as a dependency which if not provided will fail to compile if some user didn't install helm first.

thierryvolpiatto commented 5 years ago

Sorry, I don't understand. Why can't helm-org simply be added to the dependencies for helm so it >gets installed automatically?

This is what I feared and is the reason: circular dependencies.

alphapapa commented 5 years ago

Apparently it revealed a bug in async: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-10/msg00028.html