Ability to add generation data (for e.g. for PVs) to 'Current Energy'

[ghost]

Several homes we come across now already have PVs, for which householders usually have generation data.

It would be good to be able to add this at the current energy page. This would be more consistent - so you're adding all the bill data in one place. At the moment seems like this existing generation is not being accounted for consistently - would be good to understand this.

Can we also add this to the 'bills' stack on graph at figures 7?

Is it already accounted for in some way at Figures 8 and 9?

[cagabi]

Hi,

I want to point out that generation in Current Energy has very different implications than generation in SAP model. Comments:

• I am adding inputs in Current Energy to specify how much is the generation and the fraction used on-site. This is very obvious but I have to say it: that energy generated but used on-site is energy already used despite it is not in the bills, so this adds up. In SAP we calculate the demand and then we subtract the generation, which is the opposite.
• Therefore in Current Energy, those generation inputs have no effect in the calculation of primary energy and CO2 emissionss
• The same applies to the graphs in the report where we show bills data. In figures 7, 8 and 9: I don't think we need to do anything to them as the stacks are already showing the real primary energy use and emissions (that come from bills). I thinkk adding any generation will make people misunderstand the meaning of the graph
  • Another thing to take into account. In figure 6, Energy demand: I think we should add the generation to the bills stack as the fraction used on-site is in fact energy used

Does this make sense?

[cagabi]

I have added generation to Current Energy but I have more questions in the same line of my previous comment. It's about the totals we display in Current Energy, I think we should display:

• Energy demand
  • Total energy demand (includes bills and generation)
  • Energy demand supplied from generation
  • Energy demand from bills
• Totals from bills, the same that we have now:
  • Primary energy
  • CO2 emissions
  • Energy cost
  • Primary energy per m2
  • CO2 emissions per m2

Also in the graph on the right I think we should be a bit clearer:

• Primary energy demand from bills
• CO2 Emission rate from bills
• Per person energy use (includes bills and generation): I can see there can be an argument here to just do bills as the point may be to show the amount of dirty energy per person

[ghost]

Hi Carlos,

I've been having a play with this.

One simple point - the CO2 factor for generation of electricity still seems to be the old one an there's no way of me changing it in an existing assessment. I know this is now fixed for future assessments, but is there a way of changing it for an existing one (if not will have to export all data into a blank assessment I guess....)

It also seems that if you enter a figure in the Generation page for Solar PV generation, and also use the Solar PV calculator - which I did in this case to see how close one was to the other - when it comes to the totals these two figures get added together, doubling the amount of electricity the model thinks is being generated!

I can deal with this for now by just deleting one or the other figures - but would be good to have a way to make sure that only one of the possible figures is used - and preferably that the assessor has a choice as to which one.

Thanks,

Marianne

[ghost]

On your question about the graphs: I'm less bothered at the moment about the graphs showing in the tool itself, and more bothered about the ones in the report.

I think you're right, it's only Figure 6 in the report where this is a problem - Energy Demand. As at the moment energy demand is being under-reported, because the energy generated and then also used on site isn't being counted cause it doesn't appear on a bill.

I think you're right that we should add energy generated to the 'energy demand' stack to account for this. However, I think that we should not just add the total generation figure, but the estimated proportion of this we think is used on site. So generation multiplied by X.

In most cases this will be 50%. If we have particular knowledge of the house (they're in all day/ they have a battery/ they're nocturnal) we can adjust this proportion in the tool as it stands to better reflect reality. In a few very lucky cases (but more as more people get OEM kit we hope), we'll have monitored data for generated electricity that is also used on site.

Hope this makes sense.

Call me if not - working for another hour or so, and back in the office tomorrow.

Marianne

[gervasemangwana]

Hi

On this on-site usage factor. I think 50% is very generous.

My experience shows I’m still only using just over 50% and I’m diverting to the hot water.

My personal view is that unless you are home all day and have an identifiable heavy load (e.g. some form of heater) most “normal households will struggle to use more than 25%. Remembering that the bulk of the annual generation comes from those days when it’s sunny and far more than is needed is produced.

Of course it also depends on the size of the array.

I’d go for no more than 33%.

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2017, at 17:08, marianneURBED notifications@github.com wrote:

On your question about the graphs: I'm less bothered at the moment about the graphs showing in the tool itself, and more bothered about the ones in the report.

I think you're right, it's only Figure 6 in the report where this is a problem - Energy Demand. As at the moment energy demand is being under-reported, because the energy generated and then also used on site isn't being counted cause it doesn't appear on a bill.

I think you're right that we should add energy generated to the 'energy demand' stack to account for this. However, I think that we should not just add the total generation figure, but the estimated proportion of this we think is used on site. So generation multiplied by X.

In most cases this will be 50%. If we have particular knowledge of the house (they're in all day/ they have a battery/ they're nocturnal) we can adjust this proportion in the tool as it stands to better reflect reality. In a few very lucky cases (but more as more people get OEM kit we hope), we'll have monitored data for generated electricity that is also used on site.

Hope this makes sense.

Call me if not - working for another hour or so, and back in the office tomorrow.

Marianne

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[ghost]

That is a very fair point.

Maybe we set the default to 25%, and then adjust from there if the assessor judges it to be sensible? This should also make the energy cost projections a bit more realistic too.

Thanks,

Marianne

On 24 March 2017 at 13:17, gervasemangwana notifications@github.com wrote:

Hi

On this on-site usage factor. I think 50% is very generous.

My experience shows I’m still only using just over 50% and I’m diverting to the hot water.

My personal view is that unless you are home all day and have an identifiable heavy load (e.g. some form of heater) most “normal households will struggle to use more than 25%. Remembering that the bulk of the annual generation comes from those days when it’s sunny and far more than is needed is produced.

Of course it also depends on the size of the array.

I’d go for no more than 33%.

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2017, at 17:08, marianneURBED notifications@github.com wrote:

On your question about the graphs: I'm less bothered at the moment about the graphs showing in the tool itself, and more bothered about the ones in the report.

I think you're right, it's only Figure 6 in the report where this is a problem - Energy Demand. As at the moment energy demand is being under-reported, because the energy generated and then also used on site isn't being counted cause it doesn't appear on a bill.

I think you're right that we should add energy generated to the 'energy demand' stack to account for this. However, I think that we should not just add the total generation figure, but the estimated proportion of this we think is used on site. So generation multiplied by X.

In most cases this will be 50%. If we have particular knowledge of the house (they're in all day/ they have a battery/ they're nocturnal) we can adjust this proportion in the tool as it stands to better reflect reality. In a few very lucky cases (but more as more people get OEM kit we hope), we'll have monitored data for generated electricity that is also used on site.

Hope this makes sense.

Call me if not - working for another hour or so, and back in the office tomorrow.

Marianne

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[cagabi]

This is a reply about being able to change the factor for generation. Now it is possible to do so in both Current Energy and Fuel requirements but I am wondering if i should do the same for every fuel?

I guess it would not be strange a house with just electric heating and you propose as a measure to add a gas boiler. If the gas is not in Current Energy there is no way to tweak the factors or costs as it was happening with generation.

So do we want to be able to do the changes in both places? In that case I think we should also add a note advising the assessor that changes made in Fuel Requirements would overwrite the values in Current Energy

[ghost]

Sorry Carlos. I don't understand the question. Probably better to phone to talk through - I'm available now if you're free.

[cagabi]

After phone conversation with Marianne: the plan now is to add another view "Manage fuels" where all the fuels are displayed and where we can change the factors. Then in Current Energy and Fuel Requirements we only display the values. I would say we could also create another issue (with different priority) to add the possibility of creating new fuels that are not in the default list

[cagabi]

Default value for fraction used onsite set to 0.25 Fraction of generation used onsite added added to figure 6 in CarbonCoop report to the bills (Elctricity) stack

[cagabi]

I have added the Manage fuels view, link to it in the left menu.

I couldn't resist it and had to add the possibility to create new fuels and delete them (but only the ones that the user has created, default ones cannot be deleted)

I am closing this issue now