Floor U-value calculator

ghost commented 7 years ago

Each u-value for an existing floor currently needs to be calculated separately, outside the tool. This is a barrier to smooth workflow, and may be an issue for some assessors (who are less confident in calculating U-values).

There are two ways we could tackle this to make things easier:

Add a floor u-value calculator to the tool (we have an excel file for solid floors compliant with the BS I could share as an example of the calcs needed).
Add or reference tables from old Part L for u-value calculation for floors - see attached. The tool could then do a basic calc using the perimeter/area ratio, which we already ask for - which the assessor can over-ride if they choose. (Maybe with some additional guidance for assessors). U-values of Ground Floors.pdf.

It's a question of what's doable in terms of coding, and what's got the level of accuracy we need.

To be discussed.

cagabi commented 7 years ago

Both of them need coding, reference tables probably will be simpler but I like more the calculator one so I would go for the calculator

cagabi commented 7 years ago

I had a look at the pdf ages ago. It looks like the whole calculator was there. Do we want something that covers all the types of floors or is it enough with just solid floors?

We could make an open source full calculator for everybody to use (including ourselves in MHEP)

ghost commented 7 years ago

Hi,

This is creeping up the priority list as more people use the tool.

Should really cover all types of floor.

Will have a proper look later this week on how to tackle calcs in a way that's simple and easy to use.

ghost commented 6 years ago

Hi Carlos, Just sent you an email with a load of info on this. Hopefully enough to be able to build this! Marianne

cagabi commented 6 years ago

Great, got it. Thanks This is my next thing

cagabi commented 6 years ago

I have done the calculator, it is here: http://openflooruvaluecalculator.carbon.coop/

I have tested it with most of the worked examples in the Annex K in BS EN ISO 13370:2007: k1.2, k1.3, k2.1, k2.2, k2.3, k2.4, k2.5, k3.2, k3.3 and k3.4. So slab on ground and suspended floors with natural ventilation seem to be claculated well :) It needs further testing with the other options.

Next thing I'll integrate it in MHEP, shouldn't take long

@marianneURBED I am assigning it to you as for the extra testing

lowwintersun commented 6 years ago

Looks cool!!!! Is it free and open to all? Perhaps wes should write a blog? Share it around?

On 22 March 2018 at 17:50, carlos Alonso Gabizón notifications@github.com wrote:

I have done the calculator, it is here: http://openflooruvaluecalculator. carbon.coop/

I have tested it with most of the worked examples in the Annex K in BS EN ISO 13370:2007: k1.2, k1.3, k2.1, k2.2, k2.3, k2.4, k2.5, k3.2, k3.3 and k3.4. So slab on ground and suspended floors with natural ventilation seem to be claculated well :) It needs further testing with the other options.

Next thing I'll integrate it in MHEP, shouldn't take long

@marianneURBED https://github.com/marianneurbed I am assigning it to you as for the extra testing

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ghost commented 6 years ago

Thank you Carlos. This is great. I know it’s taken a lot of hard work - you should be pleased!

I think we need to do some testing and playing with it, to see if the parameters we’ve chosen are right and for usability, as well as testing the calc - so maybe we share it within our networks first, in a beta type mode, to get some feedback (Andrew, Simon Lannon, Gervase etc), and then talk about it more widely.

Could tie it in with the event in April?

M

From: lowwintersun notifications@github.com Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 8:44:45 PM To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner Cc: Marianne Heaslip; Mention Subject: Re: [emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner] Floor U-value calculator (#246)

Looks cool!!!! Is it free and open to all? Perhaps wes should write a blog? Share it around?

On 22 March 2018 at 17:50, carlos Alonso Gabizón notifications@github.com wrote:

I have done the calculator, it is here: http://openflooruvaluecalculator. carbon.coop/

I have tested it with most of the worked examples in the Annex K in BS EN ISO 13370:2007: k1.2, k1.3, k2.1, k2.2, k2.3, k2.4, k2.5, k3.2, k3.3 and k3.4. So slab on ground and suspended floors with natural ventilation seem to be claculated well :) It needs further testing with the other options.

Next thing I'll integrate it in MHEP, shouldn't take long

@marianneURBED https://github.com/marianneurbed I am assigning it to you as for the extra testing

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner/issues/246#issuecomment-375399052, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHAv7uYvdQe5MfrJyNf77w_9C3nUHRJVks5tg-RWgaJpZM4MKQh4 .

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matt-carboncoop commented 6 years ago

That's great Carlos, the link doesn't work for me though, what am I doing wrong...

Mx

On 22/03/18 20:44, lowwintersun wrote:

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lowwintersun commented 6 years ago

Hmm, works for me: http://openflooruvaluecalculator.carbon.coop/

And good point Marianne - yeah, Birmingham would be a good place to do that.

On 23/03/2018 09:08, Matt Fawcett wrote:

That's great Carlos, the link doesn't work for me though, what am I doing wrong...

Mx

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gervasemangwana commented 6 years ago

Hi All

MATT: Yes I had that problem too. The “carbon.coop” is on next line down

I had a wee play and it seems very good. Nice work carlos. However, I immediately noticed that it does not allow me (as far as I can see) to calculate for the kind of floor I just had to do most recently and my own floor at home.

That’s a solid floor that is significantly above external ground level and therefore has an exposed perimeter. The Cibse method does allow for this.

I realise complication is an issue.

all the best

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 09:08, Matt Fawcett notifications@github.com wrote:

That's great Carlos, the link doesn't work for me though, what am I doing wrong...

Mx

On 22/03/18 20:44, lowwintersun wrote:

-- e: matt@carbon.coop w: http://carbon.coop t: @ecohome_lab

People Powered Not Fossil Fuelled: an intro to Carbon Co-op: http://www.carbon.coop/reports/CarbonCoopPeoplePoweredBooklet.pdf

Society for the Reduction of Carbon Ltd (Trading as Carbon Co-op) Registered address: c/o Slade and Cooper, Green Fish Resource Centre, 46-50 Oldham Street, Manchester M4 1LE Registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965 Registration Number 31342R

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ghost commented 6 years ago

Hey Gervase,

How high above the ground are you talking?

It is unusual to get a ground bearing slab with a finished floor level more than a few hundred mm above ground level – generally the depth of the slab itself plus or minus a bit– and the ISO allows for this, as it assumes the floor sits on top of the ground (diagram on p.8 for reference). It’s very similar to the diagrams and calcs in CIBSE Guide A – is that what you mean by the CIBSE method?

Marianne

From: gervasemangwana notifications@github.com Reply-To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner reply@reply.github.com Date: Friday, 23 March 2018 at 11:12 To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner MyHomeEnergyPlanner@noreply.github.com Cc: Marianne Heaslip marianne@urbed.coop, Mention mention@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner] Floor U-value calculator (#246)

Hi All

MATT: Yes I had that problem too. The “carbon.coop” is on next line down

I had a wee play and it seems very good. Nice work carlos. However, I immediately noticed that it does not allow me (as far as I can see) to calculate for the kind of floor I just had to do most recently and my own floor at home.

That’s a solid floor that is significantly above external ground level and therefore has an exposed perimeter. The Cibse method does allow for this.

I realise complication is an issue.

all the best

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 09:08, Matt Fawcett notifications@github.com wrote:

That's great Carlos, the link doesn't work for me though, what am I doing wrong...

Mx

On 22/03/18 20:44, lowwintersun wrote:

-- e: matt@carbon.coop w: http://carbon.coop t: @ecohome_lab

People Powered Not Fossil Fuelled: an intro to Carbon Co-op: http://www.carbon.coop/reports/CarbonCoopPeoplePoweredBooklet.pdf

Society for the Reduction of Carbon Ltd (Trading as Carbon Co-op) Registered address: c/o Slade and Cooper, Green Fish Resource Centre, 46-50 Oldham Street, Manchester M4 1LE Registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965 Registration Number 31342R

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner/issues/246#issuecomment-375587704, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APihMbTd3UyJVDkirdDF7YpUNRbuAVYBks5thLuHgaJpZM4MKQh4.

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gervasemangwana commented 6 years ago

Yes Cibse A

The one I was looking at recently was 450mm above

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 16:49, marianneURBED notifications@github.com wrote:

Hey Gervase,

How high above the ground are you talking?

It is unusual to get a ground bearing slab with a finished floor level more than a few hundred mm above ground level – generally the depth of the slab itself plus or minus a bit– and the ISO allows for this, as it assumes the floor sits on top of the ground (diagram on p.8 for reference). It’s very similar to the diagrams and calcs in CIBSE Guide A – is that what you mean by the CIBSE method?

Marianne

From: gervasemangwana notifications@github.com Reply-To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner reply@reply.github.com Date: Friday, 23 March 2018 at 11:12 To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner MyHomeEnergyPlanner@noreply.github.com Cc: Marianne Heaslip marianne@urbed.coop, Mention mention@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner] Floor U-value calculator (#246)

Hi All

MATT: Yes I had that problem too. The “carbon.coop” is on next line down

I had a wee play and it seems very good. Nice work carlos. However, I immediately noticed that it does not allow me (as far as I can see) to calculate for the kind of floor I just had to do most recently and my own floor at home.

That’s a solid floor that is significantly above external ground level and therefore has an exposed perimeter. The Cibse method does allow for this.

I realise complication is an issue.

all the best

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 09:08, Matt Fawcett notifications@github.com wrote:

That's great Carlos, the link doesn't work for me though, what am I doing wrong...

Mx

On 22/03/18 20:44, lowwintersun wrote:

-- e: matt@carbon.coop w: http://carbon.coop t: @ecohome_lab

People Powered Not Fossil Fuelled: an intro to Carbon Co-op: http://www.carbon.coop/reports/CarbonCoopPeoplePoweredBooklet.pdf

Society for the Reduction of Carbon Ltd (Trading as Carbon Co-op) Registered address: c/o Slade and Cooper, Green Fish Resource Centre, 46-50 Oldham Street, Manchester M4 1LE Registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965 Registration Number 31342R

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner/issues/246#issuecomment-375587704, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APihMbTd3UyJVDkirdDF7YpUNRbuAVYBks5thLuHgaJpZM4MKQh4.

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ghost commented 6 years ago

Yep, I guess that’s not unheard of, so we need to allow for it if we can.

Which bit of Guide A did you refer to – I can’t see how what’s in there is any different to the ISO, but it’s Friday afternoon and it’s been a long week…..

M

From: gervasemangwana notifications@github.com Reply-To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner reply@reply.github.com Date: Friday, 23 March 2018 at 16:52 To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner MyHomeEnergyPlanner@noreply.github.com Cc: Marianne Heaslip marianne@urbed.coop, Mention mention@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner] Floor U-value calculator (#246)

Yes Cibse A

The one I was looking at recently was 450mm above

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 16:49, marianneURBED notifications@github.com wrote:

Hey Gervase,

How high above the ground are you talking?

It is unusual to get a ground bearing slab with a finished floor level more than a few hundred mm above ground level – generally the depth of the slab itself plus or minus a bit– and the ISO allows for this, as it assumes the floor sits on top of the ground (diagram on p.8 for reference). It’s very similar to the diagrams and calcs in CIBSE Guide A – is that what you mean by the CIBSE method?

Marianne

From: gervasemangwana notifications@github.com Reply-To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner reply@reply.github.com Date: Friday, 23 March 2018 at 11:12 To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner MyHomeEnergyPlanner@noreply.github.com Cc: Marianne Heaslip marianne@urbed.coop, Mention mention@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner] Floor U-value calculator (#246)

Hi All

MATT: Yes I had that problem too. The “carbon.coop” is on next line down

I had a wee play and it seems very good. Nice work carlos. However, I immediately noticed that it does not allow me (as far as I can see) to calculate for the kind of floor I just had to do most recently and my own floor at home.

That’s a solid floor that is significantly above external ground level and therefore has an exposed perimeter. The Cibse method does allow for this.

I realise complication is an issue.

all the best

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 09:08, Matt Fawcett notifications@github.com wrote:

That's great Carlos, the link doesn't work for me though, what am I doing wrong...

Mx

On 22/03/18 20:44, lowwintersun wrote:

-- e: matt@carbon.coop w: http://carbon.coop t: @ecohome_lab

People Powered Not Fossil Fuelled: an intro to Carbon Co-op: http://www.carbon.coop/reports/CarbonCoopPeoplePoweredBooklet.pdf

Society for the Reduction of Carbon Ltd (Trading as Carbon Co-op) Registered address: c/o Slade and Cooper, Green Fish Resource Centre, 46-50 Oldham Street, Manchester M4 1LE Registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965 Registration Number 31342R

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner/issues/246#issuecomment-375587704, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APihMbTd3UyJVDkirdDF7YpUNRbuAVYBks5thLuHgaJpZM4MKQh4.

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gervasemangwana commented 6 years ago

I’m struggling to find a reference to the height of exposed perimeter in the guide now so I may be entirely mistaken.

And I’ve referred back to the spreadsheet I made to do the floor here back in 2014 based on Cibse A and that also does not seem to refer to it.

So I think I’ve just introduced a red herring. On a friday too. Apologies.

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 16:57, marianneURBED notifications@github.com wrote:

Yep, I guess that’s not unheard of, so we need to allow for it if we can.

Which bit of Guide A did you refer to – I can’t see how what’s in there is any different to the ISO, but it’s Friday afternoon and it’s been a long week…..

M

From: gervasemangwana notifications@github.com Reply-To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner reply@reply.github.com Date: Friday, 23 March 2018 at 16:52 To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner MyHomeEnergyPlanner@noreply.github.com Cc: Marianne Heaslip marianne@urbed.coop, Mention mention@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner] Floor U-value calculator (#246)

Yes Cibse A

The one I was looking at recently was 450mm above

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 16:49, marianneURBED notifications@github.com wrote:

Hey Gervase,

How high above the ground are you talking?

It is unusual to get a ground bearing slab with a finished floor level more than a few hundred mm above ground level – generally the depth of the slab itself plus or minus a bit– and the ISO allows for this, as it assumes the floor sits on top of the ground (diagram on p.8 for reference). It’s very similar to the diagrams and calcs in CIBSE Guide A – is that what you mean by the CIBSE method?

Marianne

From: gervasemangwana notifications@github.com Reply-To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner reply@reply.github.com Date: Friday, 23 March 2018 at 11:12 To: emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner MyHomeEnergyPlanner@noreply.github.com Cc: Marianne Heaslip marianne@urbed.coop, Mention mention@noreply.github.com Subject: Re: [emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner] Floor U-value calculator (#246)

Hi All

MATT: Yes I had that problem too. The “carbon.coop” is on next line down

I had a wee play and it seems very good. Nice work carlos. However, I immediately noticed that it does not allow me (as far as I can see) to calculate for the kind of floor I just had to do most recently and my own floor at home.

That’s a solid floor that is significantly above external ground level and therefore has an exposed perimeter. The Cibse method does allow for this.

I realise complication is an issue.

all the best

Gervase Mangwana

Waxwing Energy 07956378981 info@waxwingenergy.co.uk

On 23 Mar 2018, at 09:08, Matt Fawcett notifications@github.com wrote:

That's great Carlos, the link doesn't work for me though, what am I doing wrong...

Mx

On 22/03/18 20:44, lowwintersun wrote:

-- e: matt@carbon.coop w: http://carbon.coop t: @ecohome_lab

People Powered Not Fossil Fuelled: an intro to Carbon Co-op: http://www.carbon.coop/reports/CarbonCoopPeoplePoweredBooklet.pdf

Society for the Reduction of Carbon Ltd (Trading as Carbon Co-op) Registered address: c/o Slade and Cooper, Green Fish Resource Centre, 46-50 Oldham Street, Manchester M4 1LE Registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act 1965 Registration Number 31342R

— You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/emoncms/MyHomeEnergyPlanner/issues/246#issuecomment-375587704, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/APihMbTd3UyJVDkirdDF7YpUNRbuAVYBks5thLuHgaJpZM4MKQh4.

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ghost commented 6 years ago

Hey Carlos,

I have an issue with the suspended floor calculations.

It doesn't allow you to enter a homogenous layer - for example a layer of timber floorboards/ chipboard. It always asks for a 'spacing' - which doesn't make sense when the material just floorboards/ screed/ a sheet of chipboard etc. If I enter 0.01 to be able to get something to calculate, it gives a nonsense answer (u-value of 0.06 for an uninsulated floor)

It's good to be able to add a second material on the same 'layer' of the construction - but it's not something that happens every time, so we need to change this.

Thanks,

Marianne

cagabi commented 6 years ago

Ok, it seems a pretty obvious point, should have noticed it myself. I'll see what I can do

cagabi commented 6 years ago

Sorted The problem was how we calculate the proportion of material one. To have a 100% of material 1: spacing had to be 1 and length of material 2 had to be 0. So how it works now is that I have added a None option to the dropdown of material 2. When chosen by the user spacing and material 2 length values are set on the background.

cagabi commented 6 years ago

Hi, I have done the addedd openFUVC to MHEP :) I'll close this ticket now. Any new things, please open another issue

emoncms / MyHomeEnergyPlanner

Floor U-value calculator #246