Make Starting Loan Optional / Move After Tutorial

[Hecter94]

Problem Description

The starting loan is a method for giving the player an early game goal. Something to get them started earning money and exploring and running missions until they're able to get drawn into the core loop of the game via other means, however it comes with a couple of drawbacks.

1) Lack of player agency. The player has no option but to take this loan and be forced into debt at the start of the game and effectively put on a timer. Without it being a player decision, it leads to players feeling as though they are being unfairly punished for something which was entirely out of their control.

2) No obvious benefit. At any other point in the game, you're incentivized to take a loan because you get a benefit out of it. Perhaps you get a new ship or a new outfit sooner than you otherwise would have been able to, allowing you to feel like you got access to something you shouldn't have gotten access to yet in exchange for being in debt. The starting loan gives the player no benefit, it's solely a drawback and a required tax for starting the game.

3) Disincentives experimentation. When you start the game, most players will want to start upgrading. They will immediately start seeing jobs that pay well which they can't take due to a lack of cargo space/bunks, or will get attacked by pirates they aren't able to fight back against due to a lack of weaponry. They will want to start funneling the cash they're earning into purchasing those upgrades, but will be met with a dilemma: "Do I do the smart thing and pay off my loan so I'm no longer in debt? Or do the fun thing and buy this cool new thing I found?", effectively forcing a choice between what's fun and what's optimal.

4) Interferes with, rather than complements, the core gameplay loop. Starting the game in debt, and effectively on a timer pushes the player towards a mindset of needing to earn money or fail. It forces players into a playstyle they might not enjoy out of a fear of losing their starting credits and running out of money and failing. It disincentivizes exploration, as you're actively losing money without earning money, disincentivizes experimentation, as you're spending money that may not help you earn money, and encourages sticking to what you already know works without trying anything new until you've at least got your loan paid off. Encouraging the early-game grind.

Related Issue Links

https://github.com/endless-sky/endless-sky/issues/671 Speaks about concerns regarding players running out of money and getting stuck.

https://github.com/endless-sky/endless-sky/issues/5801 Bug with the starting loan that allows you to effectively softlock yourself

https://github.com/endless-sky/endless-sky/issues/3412 Talks about adding a grace period to the loan to help newer players struggling with the initial debt.

Desired Solution

Remove the loan from the start of the game, instead allow players who complete the tutorial mission chain with James the option of purchasing an upgrade to their starting ship at a discounted rate with a loan.

This does a couple of things.

1) Makes the loan an obvious player choice. A player that wishes to take their time and explore and is fine with their starting ship can turn down the loan and be free to experiment and play at their own pace, whereas a player that wants to get into the action sooner can get a cheap upgrade to their ship, giving them a head start on running jobs and earning money. Both players are happy with their decision and both players feel like they've earned something by making a choice.

2) Gives an obvious benefit to taking the loan. This option works more in-line with how the rest of the game operates. You get put into debt, but you get something out of it, you get an advantage you wouldn't have had without this loan, you get access to something you otherwise wouldn't have had. It no longer feels like you're being punished for something outside of your control, but rewarded for a choice you did make.

3) Allows skipping the loan entirely Experienced players who don't need the tutorial can skip the starting loan entirely and get right back into the game without needing to spend some time at the start of each new game just quickly earning enough cash to pay off that loan.

Alternative Approaches

There's a lot of alternative approaches here:

1) Allow multiple different starts with varying loans of different values and different mortgage rates, potentially one without a loan at all. This gives player agency, and allows them to pick the start they're most comfortable with, and pick a level of early-game grind that they are comfortable with, but it still doesn't give the player an obvious benefit to the loan, it's still just a starting game tax, and requires the player to make a decision regarding how they want to play the game before allowing them the opportunity to learn what the game is about. Offsetting the choice of the loan to later into the game gives players the opportunity to look in the shipyard and see what ships are available, and see what outfits are available and what jobs are available and what the requirements and payouts of those jobs are. It gives them a solid background and context to use to make a decision about whether or not they feel the loan is worth it.

2) Keep the starting loan but make it more forgiving, either by reducing the loan amount, or the principle, or providing a "grace period" before payments need to start being made. This reduces the early game grind, and allows some experimentation and exploration without as much pressure on the player, but still lacks in player agency and still doesn't provide any tangible benefit to taking the loan.

3) Remove the starting loan entirely and simply direct the player towards the option of taking a loan if they choose. This reduces early game grind, arguably gives more player agency than simply offering them a fixed loan in exchange for a fixed benefit, and allows entirely skipping it if players choose to, however it also don't provide an introduction to the loan system, without giving players an opportunity to take a loan through story, it's possible a lot will simply ignore the feature, or ones that would have otherwise taken the upgrade in exchange for a loan simply won't use the feature due to a lack of experience with it.

My preferred approach would be to have it be a set option that the player chooses as part of the tutorial, but I think 3 would also be an acceptable approach and 1 could work as well assuming we accept that the player will need to make this choice without having an opportunity to learn the proper context surrounding their choice.

Additional Context

What exactly do I mean by: "upgrade to their starting ship"?

Well there are a couple of options:

1) We could offer the player a better ship in the same class as the one they picked, so players who picked a shuttle will have the option of upgrading to a heavy shuttle for example. 2) We could offer the option of upgrading to any of the better ships regardless of what the player picked. So whether a player starts with a transport, interceptor or freighter, they will get the option of upgrading to a better transport, interceptor or freighter 3) We offer a single static upgrade to all players regardless of what they picked which is a decent multi-role ship, a scout for example.

My preference would be on 2. Allow players to start the game by picking either an interceptor, transport or light freighter, give them a short intro where they get to experience that playstyle, and then offer them the option of switching to a different type when upgrading if they've determined they didn't like that playstyle. As an example, a player that picked a sparrow, tried the combat and disliked it, could choose to upgrade to a Heavy Shuttle and try that out instead of being stuck with their sparrow.

User Feedback

A couple of steam reviews showcasing what I mean by the starting loan offering a poor starting experience:

[vitalchip]

I think that listening to people who can't make money in ES is like asking the village idiot to design a reactor.

If we had gold coins floating in space that ships collected when they flew over it still wouldn't be easier than it is now.

That said, I never use the loan facility after the first one, there is so much money sloshing around there has never been any need, so I wouldn't care if the entire bank system got removed and the button used for something better.

Give the players a shuttle and 5000 credits and let them go from there, anyone who doesn't have half a million credits an hour later is as clever as an empty coke can.

[Hecter94]

I think we could make it harder to amass stupidly high amounts of wealth in mid to late game and make the early game a bit more forgiving. Have a more reasonable difficulty curve rather than difficult right at the very start and never again.

[Zireael07]

anyone who doesn't have half a million credits an hour later is as clever as an empty coke can.

In that case you just insulted me (I usually wound up dead so many times that I simply abandoned the game before getting out of the initial loan)

Also the fighter ship is a trap option for new players, they will NOT get the "half a million credits" because they'll end up even more dead than I did

[vitalchip]

If I go exploring right at the start I end up dead too, my point is that if you're trying to make some money initially it's very easy.

I agree about the 'fighter' start, I only use that start for mining and I've suggested in the past we replace that start with a mining ship.

I also said give the player a shuttle (no options) and 5000 credits (no debt) and let them start there. Even by doing nothing but the safe trade triangle from the start you can advance to having 2 Star Barges and half a million in the bank in about an hour.It's not exciting but the point is that you now have the beginnings of a trade fleet or you have the means to buy an 'exploration ship'

You've learned the controls, the interfaces and maybe been introduced to a few jobs on the way, in other words it's the one hour primer that leaves you able to start on your actual chosen path.

Progress is not hard but of course if you travel to less savoury parts in a starter ship then you are extremely vulnerable. That's sort of the point, the galaxy is not somewhere to roam in a Shuttle, if it were there would be less incentive to improve your position.

[Zireael07]

If I go exploring right at the start I end up dead too, my point is that if you're trying to make some money initially it's very easy.

Every time I tried playing, I tried following the map to where the goods I had had the highest price. And I ended up killed even though it was just me trying to earn money for the loan, not "exploring"

[vitalchip]

Mostly I'll use the approach of looking for the best single jump trade and work a 3 or 4 system pattern for a bit, then for a break I'll pick up a passenger job and do some two jump trades along the way.

Perhaps there is a larger discrepancy using differing methods than I'm imagining.

Chasing the big numbers usually leads you away from the safer regions because the trades tend to be lop sided, so rather than a back and forth steady income you venture further and further chasing a big score each time.

[Zireael07]

Chasing the big numbers usually leads you away from the safer regions because the trades tend to be lop sided, so rather than a back and forth steady income you venture further and further chasing a big score each time.

That's possibly the error I made. But back when I played, there was literally ZERO way for a player to gauge the system's safety level by looking at the map (is there a safety map mode now?)

[Hecter94]

That's possibly the error I made. But back when I played, there was literally ZERO way for a player to gauge the system's safety level by looking at the map (is there a safety map mode now?)

No, that's something you can only learn via exploration, which you can't reasonably do until after your loan is paid off.

Fun fact, the game actually does have some method of tracking system safety which it uses internally to plan jump routes, but that info isn't given to the player.

[Zitchas]

That's possibly the error I made. But back when I played, there was literally ZERO way for a player to gauge the system's safety level by looking at the map (is there a safety map mode now?)

Not that I'm aware of. There's the somewhat flippant reply of "Is the system in the human part of the galaxy? If yes, then it is dangerous." But in all seriousness, no, there's no obvious means of determining if a system is dangerous before you've arrived there. Especially if you are exploring and jumping into an unknown system. You can't even see what the star's attributes are, let alone the system.

[vitalchip]

I just went on the assumption that most games will start somewhere 'safe' and that there won't be much trouble in the next room/system either. Beyond that you need to be careful.

[Zireael07]

@vitalchip: Most other space games (e.g. Elite, Pioneer) had way more leeway than "starting system + next system over", AND some way of determining the safety of the system (government type, piracy level, whatever they called it).

[vitalchip]

I'm not really sure what that means if I'm honest, never player Pioneer but Elite started the player somewhere pretty safe and the nearby systems were too. Once you got a little further they became less so. Fairly standard.

Some sort of danger colour on the map wouldn't be a problem, I don't think.

[TomGoodIdea]

There's #3572, but it's orphaned.

[johndh]

The early game isn't necessarily "difficult" as it is capricious, in my experience. Partially due to the pacing of combat, you can die pretty much instantly and unexpectedly with no time to react. You'll probably have to load a lot, but it doesn't take long to advance.

The current approach: At the risk of getting too political (ES is at least a little bit political satire), having to start a business in massive debt with a high failure rate, is the most realistically capitalist part of the ES economy. You're essentially buying a truck as an owner-operator, which requires a loan unless you're already wealthy, with no collateral because the bank can't repossess your destroyed ship from your charred corpse. As an owner-operator, the most successful strategy is to save up enough to promote yourself to the capitalist class, employing other pilots and crew to operate for you at the lowest wage you can get away with, which is how it works in Endless Sky. Of course, the game could start with the player being old and retired from Local 2113 New Boston Textile Workers Union, with a retirement fund big enough to buy a small starship, but I don't think that's the feeling we're going for.

I have a head canon idea of why these risky loans are being given out, which also explains why we suddenly see a rapid expansion of ships over the course of the game, if anybody wants me to write it down as flavor lore.

Alternative approaches, which would require nontrivial effort:

Employee: An alternative IRL is be to become a company driver, where you drive a vehicle that somebody else owns and they pay a wage but keep the majority of the profit to reinvest. Your crew would be paid by your employer. That's lower risk, but there's a definite limit to how much money you can make, so probably not as fun for gameplay, and the only way to advance is to save up (or get a loan) and become an owner-operator.

Indenture / apprenticeship: You are provided a ship, possibly as part of a larger fleet, and collect a wage or a percentage of profits, and after a set period of time, level of competence, or some other metric, you've earned your ship (and the right to buy more than one) and are free to pursue your own fate, possibly maintaining a relationship with the organization (guild, union, pirate mafia, etc) by paying a small due and receiving more access to missions, maybe discounts, whatever. We can infer the existence of organized labor in ES because there are missions where you transport strike breakers. This would basically be a tutorial period, which maybe you could skip after the first playthrough.

We need you!: You either graduated from the Republic Space Navy Academy or tested really well on the Public Service Placement Aptitude Test, and have been selected for the Special Naval Escort and Attack Taskforce. Instead of having a patrol route and regular stations, SNEAT pilots carry out bounty-style missions, they escort supply convoys, and transport important officials through hostile space. Basically the same as above options, but with bureaucracy and military jargon in navy swizzle.

[movingpictures]

I also said give the player a shuttle (no options) and 5000 credits (no debt) and let them start there.

Like this.

[reticent-rem]

I actually like having the starting loan and don't think it's too onerous.

1. The loan isn't that high of a financial burden. The loan is for $480k, but the actual cost to the player is only $180-225k depending on the starter ship. Throw in the $95-105k the player makes in the tutorial, and the player is only on the hook for $75-115k in their starting mortgage. That doesn't seem so insurmountable to me.

2. I also like how the mortgage gives the player an initial goal and kicks them in the pants to engage in the game content -- taking on jobs and missions, trading, or fighting pirates. The player still has agency in what to do or how to make money, the mortgage just makes them have to do something.

3. It provides accomplishment. There's a sense of accomplishment when finally paying off your first mortgage and later on a wow factor when your crew salaries dwarf that mortgage you worked hard to pay off. Heck, there are whole games with this as a key dynamic (such as animal crossing).

4. The bank as a whole lets you access cool stuff at a cost, giving the player choice with consequence. I know I took a new mortgage to buy my first Mule, and went into debt to trick out my ship once I discovered the Hai.

5. Other people like the starting loan/bank too. Here are some examples from Steam (note the number who found the reviews helpful)

   

All this being said, I just wanted to add to the other side where there are people (myself included) who think the starting loan is a valuable part of the game. Also, I think having a fourth loan-free start option where you get a minimal scrapper or something for people who don't care for the financial system or want to be pirates could be a good idea.

[Hecter94]

1. The loan isn't that high of a financial burden. The loan is for $480k, but the actual cost to the player is only $180-225k depending on the starter ship. Throw in the $95-105k the player makes in the tutorial, and the player is only on the hook for $75-115k in their starting mortgage. That doesn't seem so insurmountable to me.

Perhaps, but it does feel insurmountable to others, so I suggest making it optional. Those who feel the loan is a burden and diminishes their experience don't have to take it, whereas those who feel it is easily surmountable can take it and get a nice little bonus for doing so. It provides a benefit to the players willing to take it, not punishing players who don't want it.

2. I also like how the mortgage gives the player an initial goal and kicks them in the pants to engage in the game content -- taking on jobs and missions, trading, or fighting pirates. The player still has agency in what to do or how to make money, the mortgage just makes them have to do something.

Sure, and I mentioned that as well in my initial post, The starting loan is a method for giving the player an early game goal. Something to get them started earning money and exploring and running missions until they're able to get drawn into the core loop of the game via other means That doesn't change the fact that it, as implemented, comes with some major drawbacks, which I outlined above, and should be adjusted to resolve those drawbacks.

I also mentioned the following: When you start the game, most players will want to start upgrading. They will immediately start seeing jobs that pay well, which they can't take due to a lack of cargo space/bunks, or will get attacked by pirates they aren't able to fight back against due to a lack of weaponry. They will want to start funneling the cash they're earning into purchasing those upgrades

Endless Sky comes with more than enough of a natural draw to get players interested in earning money and doing quests and jobs for the sake of upgrading their ship and purchasing cool new stuff; the loan is a very artificial means of generating that same draw which is simply unnecessary and in fact, often interferes with that natural draw, see point 4 in my initial post.

3. It provides accomplishment. There's a sense of accomplishment when finally paying off your first mortgage and later on a wow factor when your crew salaries dwarf that mortgage you worked hard to pay off. Heck, there are whole games with this as a key dynamic (such as animal crossing).

Sure, but what gives a better sense of accomplishment? Purchasing a new better ship that functions better than your old one, or paying off a loan that you were forced to take? A player naturally drawn into the game's core loop via the mechanics described above will eventually earn some cash. Would you not say that using that cash to purchase something new, a tangible, physical upgrade that has a noticeable effect on the game itself, provides more of a sense of accomplishment?

We don't want to put players into a position where they have to decide between a fun choice, such as upgrading their ship, and the smart choice, paying off their loan. Forcing a choice between what's fun and what's optimal is never a good design choice.

4. The bank as a whole lets you access cool stuff at a cost, giving the player choice with consequence. I know I took a new mortgage to buy my first Mule, and went into debt to trick out my ship once I discovered the Hai.

Sure, and I went into this as well in point 2 above: At any other point in the game, you're incentivized to take a loan because you get a benefit out of it. Perhaps you get a new ship or a new outfit sooner than you otherwise would have been able to, allowing you to feel like you got access to something you shouldn't have gotten access to yet in exchange for being in debt. The starting loan gives the player no benefit, it's solely a drawback and a required tax for starting the game.

Part of the problem with the starting loan is that it lacks the same cool stuff at a cost benefit that the bank provides the rest of the game; in the case of the starting loan, there is no "cool thing" you're able to get because of it, it's simply a tax on being able to play the game. This is a drawback of the starting loan itself and something that is fixed with my proposed change.

5. Other people like the starting loan/bank too. Here are some examples from Steam (note the number who found the reviews helpful)

To be clear, this issue is specifically regarding the starting loan, not the bank as a whole. I recognize that the bank as a whole is a good option for players to have and comes with a number of benefits, as evidenced by the fact that we can now see a dynamic of reviews that are both praising the bank/mortgage system as a whole like you've shown while disliking specifically the starting loan, as I've shown. The goal, therefore, is to translate more of the benefits of the banking system as a whole into the starting loan. See point 1&2 under Desired Solution.

Also, I think having a fourth loan-free start option where you get a minimal scrapper or something for people who don't care for the financial system or want to be pirates could be a good idea.

I did mention above that a start is an option, but it comes with some drawbacks of its own, which I highlighted: Allow multiple different starts with varying loans of different values and different mortgage rates, potentially one without a loan at all. This gives player agency, and allows them to pick the start they're most comfortable with, and pick a level of early-game grind that they are comfortable with, but it still doesn't give the player an obvious benefit to the loan, it's still just a starting game tax, and requires the player to make a decision regarding how they want to play the game before allowing them the opportunity to learn what the game is about. Offsetting the choice of the loan to later into the game gives players the opportunity to look in the shipyard and see what ships are available, and see what outfits are available and what jobs are available and what the requirements and payouts of those jobs are. It gives them a solid background and context to use to make a decision about whether or not they feel the loan is worth it.

[movingpictures]

May I make a "best of both worlds" suggestion?

Player has a choice of starting out in a used ship (a scrapper with little much going for it, for example) or a new vessel under a loan.

On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:51 AM Hecter94 @.***> wrote:

1. The loan isn't that high of a financial burden. The loan is for $480k, but the actual cost to the player is only $180-225k depending on the starter ship. Throw in the $95-105k the player makes in the tutorial, and the player is only on the hook for $75-115k in their starting mortgage. That doesn't seem so insurmountable to me.

Perhaps, but it does feel insurmountable to others, so I suggest making it optional. Those who feel the loan is a burden and diminishes their experience don't have to take it, whereas those who feel it is easily surmountable can take it and get a nice little bonus for doing so. It provides a benefit to the players willing to take it, not punishing players who don't want it.

1. I also like how the mortgage gives the player an initial goal and kicks them in the pants to engage in the game content -- taking on jobs and missions, trading, or fighting pirates. The player still has agency in what to do or how to make money, the mortgage just makes them have to do something.

Sure, and I mentioned that as well in my initial post, The starting loan is a method for giving the player an early game goal. Something to get them started earning money and exploring and running missions until they're able to get drawn into the core loop of the game via other means That doesn't change the fact that it, as implemented, comes with some major drawbacks, which I outlined above, and should be adjusted to resolve those drawbacks.

I also mentioned the following: When you start the game, most players will want to start upgrading. They will immediately start seeing jobs that pay well, which they can't take due to a lack of cargo space/bunks, or will get attacked by pirates they aren't able to fight back against due to a lack of weaponry. They will want to start funneling the cash they're earning into purchasing those upgrades

Endless Sky comes with more than enough of a natural draw to get players interested in earning money and doing quests and jobs for the sake of upgrading their ship and purchasing cool new stuff; the loan is a very artificial means of generating that same draw which is simply unnecessary and in fact, often interferes with that natural draw, see point 4 in my initial post.

1. It provides accomplishment. There's a sense of accomplishment when finally paying off your first mortgage and later on a wow factor when your crew salaries dwarf that mortgage you worked hard to pay off. Heck, there are whole games with this as a key dynamic (such as animal crossing).

Sure, but what gives a better sense of accomplishment? Purchasing a new better ship that functions better than your old one, or paying off a loan that you were forced to take? A player naturally drawn into the game's core loop via the mechanics described above will eventually earn some cash. Would you not say that using that cash to purchase something new, a tangible, physical upgrade that has a noticeable effect on the game itself, provides more of a sense of accomplishment?

We don't want to put players into a position where they have to decide between a fun choice, such as upgrading their ship, and the smart choice, paying off their loan. Forcing a choice between what's fun and what's optimal is never a good design choice.

1. The bank as a whole lets you access cool stuff at a cost, giving the player choice with consequence. I know I took a new mortgage to buy my first Mule, and went into debt to trick out my ship once I discovered the Hai.

Sure, and I went into this as well in point 2 above: At any other point in the game, you're incentivized to take a loan because you get a benefit out of it. Perhaps you get a new ship or a new outfit sooner than you otherwise would have been able to, allowing you to feel like you got access to something you shouldn't have gotten access to yet in exchange for being in debt. The starting loan gives the player no benefit, it's solely a drawback and a required tax for starting the game.

Part of the problem with the starting loan is that it lacks the same cool stuff at a cost benefit that the bank provides the rest of the game; in the case of the starting loan, there is no "cool thing" you're able to get because of it, it's simply a tax on being able to play the game. This is a drawback of the starting loan itself and something that is fixed with my proposed change.

1. Other people like the starting loan/bank too. Here are some examples from Steam (note the number who found the reviews helpful)

To be clear, this issue is specifically regarding the starting loan, not the bank as a whole. I recognize that the bank as a whole is a good option for players to have and comes with a number of benefits, as evidenced by the fact that we can now see a dynamic of reviews that are both praising the bank/mortgage system as a whole like you've shown while disliking specifically the starting loan, as I've shown. The goal, therefore, is to translate more of the benefits of the banking system as a whole into the starting loan. See point 1&2 under Desired Solution.

Also, I think having a fourth loan-free start option where you get a minimal scrapper or something for people who don't care for the financial system or want to be pirates could be a good idea.

I did mention above that a start is an option, but it comes with some drawbacks of its own, which I highlighted: Allow multiple different starts with varying loans of different values and different mortgage rates, potentially one without a loan at all. This gives player agency, and allows them to pick the start they're most comfortable with, and pick a level of early-game grind that they are comfortable with, but it still doesn't give the player an obvious benefit to the loan, it's still just a starting game tax, and requires the player to make a decision regarding how they want to play the game before allowing them the opportunity to learn what the game is about. Offsetting the choice of the loan to later into the game gives players the opportunity to look in the shipyard and see what ships are available, and see what outfits are available and what jobs are available and what the requirements and payouts of those jobs are. It gives them a solid background and context to use to make a decision about whether or not they feel the loan is worth it.

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[ziproot]

I would like to describe an alternate take on this: the Crisis in Management plugin. This plugin gives you a loan of several million credits, but gives you almost no money. Then it has intro missions culminating in nuking Clink, which lets you pay off most of the loan. However, the best way to pay off the loan is to buy upgrades for your ship with the money you have, or buying more ships, improving your ship and allowing you to take on higher missions, and eventually you will have so much money in assets that you will be able to pay off your loan. In this way, the "upgrade your ship" and "pay off your loan" elements are working together instead of contradicting each other.

[Amazinite]

I don't think we should be making the loan for the existing start optional. It'd be better to instead provide an alternative start which lacks the loan, but perhaps has drawbacks similar to your suggestions for not taking the loan from the existing start.

[ziproot]

A pirate start in a scrapper without a loan would be interesting.

[AvianGeneticist]

• It provides accomplishment. There's a sense of accomplishment when finally paying off your first mortgage and later on a wow factor when your crew salaries dwarf that mortgage you worked hard to pay off. Heck, there are whole games with this as a key dynamic (such as animal crossing).
• The bank as a whole lets you access cool stuff at a cost, giving the player choice with consequence. I know I took a new mortgage to buy my first Mule, and went into debt to trick out my ship once I discovered the Hai.

Hard agree with both of these points; I remember my first time paying off the loan fondly. It may not have been absolutely on the same level of challenges as finishing the main storyline (at the time, just FW), but relatively, after slogging through your first months of the game, fighting to pay off your last loan in a game you're unfamiliar with, it's amazingly rewarding to finally hit that first goalpost (even if in later runs it just becomes an ignorable hiccup).

I also use the loan feature quite often; especially in the early game. The amount of times I've taken a cheeky 2 mill loan to cover the cost of some atomic engines for a new leviathan or something can't be counted on 2 hands and 2 feet (assuming each hand has 6 fingers).

[movingpictures]

If each of your hands has six fingers, you live too close to Chernobyl.

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 12:44 AM AvianGeneticist @.***> wrote:

• It provides accomplishment. There's a sense of accomplishment when finally paying off your first mortgage and later on a wow factor when your crew salaries dwarf that mortgage you worked hard to pay off. Heck, there are whole games with this as a key dynamic (such as animal crossing).
• The bank as a whole lets you access cool stuff at a cost, giving the player choice with consequence. I know I took a new mortgage to buy my first Mule, and went into debt to trick out my ship once I discovered the Hai.

Hard agree with both of these points; I remember my first time paying off the loan fondly. It may not have been absolutely on the same level of challenges as finishing the main storyline (at the time, just FW), but relatively, after slogging through your first months of the game, fighting to pay off your last loan in a game you're unfamiliar with, it's amazingly rewarding to finally hit that first goalpost (even if in later runs it just becomes an ignorable hiccup).

I also use the loan feature quite often; especially in the early game. The amount of times I've taken a cheeky 2 mill loan to cover the cost of some atomic engines for a new leviathan or something can't be counted on 2 hands and 2 feet (assuming each hand has 6 fingers).

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[KimDare75]

Hmm. I think the initial starting loan is a bit unforgiving, as it seems. It is quite fun to pay it off, but it requires a little insight which, at least on Steam usually is provided by guides, which also tell you... pretty much everything else. I would dislike removing it. It's something that connects all of us ES players, the relief of paying it off, seriously, it's just such a huge victory. I propose to perhaps lower the... uuh (sorry, I', terrible at maths and banking) interest? No, I mean that you can pay it off faster, aka making the manual payments more "effective" at lowering the daily payments. Again, I excuse myself for not really understanding how loans and interest and stuff work, but that'd be my idea. I feel slightly frustrated at how little my 2k daily credit payments drop when I pay them off myself. But then again, too much makes the value of FINALLY paying them off too little. Like in #3297 , a little note, a reminder of when you payed off your starting loan would be quite, quite cool. I would love it. So nah, removing it would be not good, in my opinion.

[flowers9]

I definitely fall on the "starting loan is good" side.

The player has to start somewhere. The starting loan gives them focus. This is not a game like Minecraft, with it's totally open-world approach from the get-go. And it doesn't need to be. Having the players start their efforts in one area and then expand from there as their monetary options increase is one way they explore and experience the game. It helps them to run across lots of human-space content before finding other stuff.

We might make it more clear that "running out of money" isn't really a thing - if you crash out at $0, you just lose credit rating (and watch your loan grow). It does hamper you in that you can't buy cargo to trade, but you can still make money by completing jobs (or piracy).

We could make the transition when paying off your loan a bit "softer" by giving the player a credit history. Currently, the player has to earn about $280k (net, so not counting money paid towards interest, and subtracting ship and outfit depreciation) to reach the point the bank will offer them $0 past their original $480k loan. With a credit history that actually supports the original $480k loan, the player could start taking on new loans earlier (or pay down the starting loan without losing access to the money, as they'd be able to get it back with a new loan).

There's nothing wrong with seeing jobs you can't do with your current ship. It helps the world feel a little deeper (i.e., there's more here than just you). It can give you a focus for where you might want to upgrade to when you get the chance. And it's an incentive to explore the map to find worlds that you can see jobs for but don't know how to get to.

On a different topic, I am amused to see people offering to give the starting player a shuttle while also mentioning how easily they die. Offer the player a Sparrow, and (in-game) mention a nearby Outfitter that sells Bunks, Cargo Expansions, and Fuel Pods. While once I thought the Shuttle was the obvious starting choice, repeated deaths have changed my mind. ;) I just skip the starter combat mission.

[Hurleveur]

What if you had the choice to get a loan to upgrade your ship, but otherwise stick to the 3 starting ones with a smaller loan? You would be able to get a wasp, or a heavy shuttle or smth if you take it? Othewise you'd have to stick to the starting ships, mb even allow buying a Scrapper without loan for a truly different experience?

[movingpictures]

I'd entertain the idea of a starting option with a scrapper, and that's all. Some story line could be created about finding a beat-up scrapper, a shot-down pirate or some such and claiming it as salvage....

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 3:58 AM Hurleveur @.***> wrote:

What if you had the choice to get a loan to upgrade your ship, but otherwise stick to the 3 starting ones with a smaller loan? You would be able to get a wasp, or a heavy shuttle or smth if you take it? Othewise you'd have to stick to the starting ships, mb even allow buying a Scrapper without loan for a truly different experience?

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[flowers9]

How about ... the shipyard offers you a mission - they've got a beat up scrapper they've been salvaging for parts (because it's otherwise worthless), and they found a bomb on board. If you'll offer to pilot it off their lot, they'll fit the (otherwise empty) ship with a battery pack and X1050 engines (so you can dispose of the bomb in space). The ship and both outfits are fully depreciated. When you return to finish the mission, they thank you by fitting it with a fully depreciated hyperdrive (that no one's been willing to buy). Net worth - $34k.

You won't have the loan chasing you, but you will still have to claw your way up from the bottom of the barrel.

[movingpictures]

I like that idea.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 10:23 PM flowers9 @.***> wrote:

How about ... the shipyard offers you a mission - they've got a beat up scrapper they've been salvaging for parts (because it's otherwise worthless), and they found a bomb on board. If you'll offer to pilot it off their lot, they'll fit the (otherwise empty) ship with a battery pack and X1050 engines (so you can dispose of the bomb in space). The ship and both outfits are fully depreciated. When you return to finish the mission, they thank you by fitting it with a fully depreciated hyperdrive (that no one's been willing to buy). Net worth - $34k.

You won't have the loan chasing you, but you will still have to claw your way up from the bottom of the barrel.

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[flowers9]

You could make it a learning moment, too. Instead of a bomb, a heavy rocket pod with an active warhead, with a tutorial for selecting a secondary weapon and firing it. The pod is salvaged after you land, since it's in good shape.