Draconic Thoughts

[waveney]

In the absence of EDs ideas, here are mine:

There will be many levels of dragons, and levels of opponents.

As your dragons get better, they attract better opponents, with better rewards.

For each type of Dragon there is an optimal nest lining (and possibly other precondtions). The better the lining the better the dragon. These optimal linings will vary from player to player - set in beanish constants so they can't be easily hacked. You can only line with stuff that is infinite.

The first Dragon egg will cost 10 goat, then the next is 20 goats ...

Dragons gain abilities as they get better. There should only be a need for one type of dragon at once, as when you gain a level N lesser dragons metamorphose into 1 new dragon.

They start pretty puny - peasants can easily beat them up. By the end they eat Pantheons of Gods for breakfast.

Diamonds are made from Knights frizzelled by fire so you may get the first diamond at the third dragon level (if you are lucky).

To make diamond monuments you will need tools to cut and mold diamonds - guess what, you will have to sell to get them. The number of diamonds needed will include sqrt(NP) in the formula. Thus you will need Imaginary diamonds to make minus diamond monuments - these may come from higher level dragons, with other types of breath and under "complex" conditions.

Dragons hoard gold (attracts opponents, otherwise useless) and princesses (attracts better opponents and tasty).

The appearance of an opponent will be as a redundadragon - sort of like redundakitties with wings.

The better the fit of dragon to the ideal the more likely you are to kill. Either way you gain some experience (knowledge about the best lining), Kill and you gain gold and possibly princesses, Lose and you lost the dragon.

Opponents: Peasants, Serfs, Page, Squire, Knight, Lord, Baron, Duke, Emperor, Paladin, Hero, Demi-God, Super-Hero, God, Pantheon

Diamonds start with some knights. Peasants might have copper, Serfs silver, its gold you want.

Dragon types: Dragling, DragonNewt, Wyrm, Wyvern, Dragon, Noble Dragon, Imperial Dragon, Infinite Dragon

Dragons don't get to breath fire (or other things) until you get to Wyrm. They get multiple heads from Noble Dragon.

Currently you can only incubate one egg at once, I will allow multiple nests in the future (from larger numbers of maps) and queens to have more than one, but still not many.

The first few levels will apparently get the player nowhere - this is largely intentional.

There is scope for some graphics, when there is a battle, but I can't draw.

Thoughts, better ideas, EDs wisdom...

[LucidCrux]

That's a lot to process. I'll share my thoughts after I think about it and reread it a few times.

I can say right off, though, that I don't think we should do graphics. To me, it doesn't fit the game. It just feels right to me to keep graphics as new pix and icons.

[ghost]

Maybe you can have different dragon social roles _cough_HowToRaiseADragoncough. This would riff on the ninja streak/ninja ritual dichotomy-ish thing.

[LucidCrux]

Okay, I have had a chance to digest some of this a little bit.

First thought: this seems a bit too complex. While I realize it would be nice to add some new flair to the game, I think that going too far would be bad. The game is basically clicking a picture and some buttons, and adding too much that is a lot different could very well drive people away. That being said, perhaps it is just the explanation that sounds too complex to me. I think there is line to walk between familiar and basically just new names on slightly tweaked mechanics, and things that could make the game feel fresh.

As an incremental game, I think it is important to keep progress incremental. Adding a bit of rpg flair to that is fine, but at it's core it still needs to be obviously incremental IMO. Also, if opponents are kitty like, how will this work for mostly idle players?

I think why this is bugging me, and is so hard to really provide feedback, opinion, and ideas (without just throwing out a ton of my own new ideas), is that you have given a lot of random detail, but I have absolutely no clue how any of it will actually work, play, and fit together. We need some kind of basic step by step base to build from. Details can come after that.

Other random thoughts:

Multiple lesser dragons morph into one better one? That just sounds like shoehorning in a use for them. Also, you say there should only be a need for one dragon. Will there be many or only one at a time?

Only infinite items can be used for lining. Does this include gold and princesses? Also why not copper and silver for linings?

The first few levels will apparently get the player nowhere - this is largely intentional.

Boo, sounds like bad game design, especially for an incremental. You ALWAYS want the player to feel they are improving or advancing in some way. You might as well say "it is boring on purpose, and people will not like it." No. Just no.

"Infinite Dragon" = blah

Probably more, but that is a good start. A better understanding of exactly how this will work would help a lot. (Yes I said that before).

Also, just because I seem to need to say it to preempt "bad things"(tm) and I don't think I have done so here or recently: Yes most of this is blunt and/or negative. That is how I do brainstorming, critique, etc. "Say two good things for every bad" is, IMO, a waste of time and effort. Fail. Fail often. It is how we improve. Cut out the crap and work with whats left. It is much more effective than tip-toeing around everything. It also reflects nothing of my feelings or respect for the person behind the ideas. If I didn't respect you and your ideas and think there was something worth while, I wouldn't spend time on it in the first place. Time is one thing we can never replace.

[waveney]

Brief reply now - some of this is consistent with where ED was planing on taking it - I am really wanting his input, mind you I was pretty negative to his last thoughts in this area.

Its incremental in that dragons will get better if you leave them, but if you risk a fight you may lose a dragon or gain significant riches and good rewards.

Gold/Silver/Copper are all the same thing, just different names for a worthless resource. Prinecesses will have uses. The plan was to one have one type of dragon at once, one could keep the lesser dragons - I am not fussed on that.- anything infiniite could be used as a lining. As dragons go up you will need more types.

There will be new boosts along the way to give dragons more abilities (fire multiple heads, flight, magic, thick skin, teeth, bad dreams, etc). You need things to make diamond monuments, that need diamonds to make.

The first few levels will apparently get the player nowhere - this is largely intentional.

Boo, sounds like bad game design, especially for an incremental. You ALWAYS want the player to feel they are improving or advancing in some way. You might as well say "it is boring on purpose, and people will not like it." No. Just no

There should be giggles as your lowly dragons get beaten up by serfs with turnips. But they will improve and it will gently lead them into the play style for the dragon saga.

"Infinite Dragon" = blah

I don't like it either but could not come up with a good final title.

I am a techie, not a wordsmith - so my ideas may be blunt and not too well explained.

I am a professional problem solver and even run coarses on solving problems: 1) Stage 1 all ideas are good, get lots, traditional brainstorming 2) Stage 2 talk about each idea (no decisions at this stage) 3) Stage 3 everbody gives there (independant) ratings as to what should be done. Rating each idea in terms of effort to do and their effects 4) Stage 4 decide the actions and path(s) to be taken. (be prepared to change your mind if/when more infomation comes in as to costs/effects)

Note do not get too atached to any idea until some time AFTER stage 4.

Working through here is far from ideal to brainstorm these things.

[eternaldensity]

Here's my latest thoughts on dragons (they've developed a bit lately):

Dragon eggs: these will have a fixed cost (probably involving lots of bonemeal). When you click the Lay Egg button, one egg is added to the nest and the incubation time is increased. When the incubation time gets to 0, all eggs in the next will hatch to dragon hatchlings. The time increment won't be linear so there will be a bit of a game in finding optimum egg-laying strategies. Nest lining will affect this (and will increase the number of eggs you can fit incubate at one time.

Dragon hatchlings: when eggs hatch, they become a new group of dragon hatchlings. I actually had this working last year with my 'save arbitrary data to array' code, though it's likely someone's broken that since. How it works gamewise is that you might incubate and hatch 4 eggs, and thus have 4 hatchlings, and then incubate and hatch 6 eggs, so now you have a group of 4 hatchlings and 6 hatchlings. Hatchlings will develop into various kinds of dragons, given time. The amount of time depends on the number of hatchlings in the group. (Possibly you'll be able to feed them certain things to slow down or speed up the growth rate)

The type/variety of dragons that hatchlings grow into depends on:

1. the number of hatchlings in the group
2. the number of groups in the hatchery
3. some other factors such as special items
4. if certain conditions are met, one hatchling out of a group will become a special advanced type (normally all hatchings in a group become the same type). Advanced dragon types will probably have abilities including buffing the associated normal type.

What is done with dragons: When you first raise a dragon, an empty plot of land will be earned. This land will be a staging area for new dragons. (It will have a limited amount of space though...) Additional plots of land are guarded by increasing numbers of peasants and serfs and pages and knights and so on. You have to fight and defeat these in order to win the land they are guarding. Combat will consist of choosing available dragons from a list in the order you want them to attack. (The number of dragons that can attack may be limited,) Some dragon varieties will be direct attacking units, others may have abilities such as helping more dragons to attack at once, destroying fortifications, drawing defensive fire, or noncombat abilities such as healing your dragons between battles, and digging.

Land: Taking over a plot of land may immediately give you some treasures. Others can be dug for, with digging dragons. Naturally, the higher level the land and the higher level the digging dragons, the more and better treasures will be available. These treasures may include instructions for breeding better dragons, the parts to assemble items to improve dragon breeding (or to buff existing dragons), and of course diamonds. (Defeating some high level enemies also gives diamonds)

Princesses: I hadn't thought of princesses until waveney mentioned them, but perhaps if you capture a princess you'll get a percentage bonus to some attribute of your dragons (or to certain types: a princess in a land of the fiery realm may buff some attribute of your various fiery dragons, for instance) as a tribute, but a princess also means that land will be counterattacked...

[MichealRein]

Is this all going to happen in the land of kittens or is something else going to be done with the np.

[waveney]

Is this all going to happen in the land of kittens or is something else going to be done with the np.

This will be in the nps. Adding the TaT frames is also on my todo list, but from the replies on Reddit I am doing the main draconic things first.

I actually had this working last year with my 'save arbitrary data to array' code, though it's likely someone's broken that since.

Actually this works again, because I got array saving working for Nest Linings, and new I would be needing it for other things. It saves an array as length then values.

That is a Seaish list of things ED, I can work with both that and mine into something quite playable. Instant ideas:

• I think the "Plots of Land" are actually the NPs themselves. To occupy and dig a plot you need to go there and do things.
• Digging for diamonds and treasures will be beach clicking.

[eternaldensity]

I'd thought of all this as something that just happens with mNP countdowns, not strictly ONG related and definitely not kitten related.

Actually this works again,

Yay!

I think the "Plots of Land" are actually the NPs themselves. To occupy and dig a plot you need to go there and do things.

Good idea. Maybe each NP n will have space for n dragons? Or maybe it needs to be a step function? We'll have to consider that. 'do things' I figure will mean defeating the defenders.

beach clicking

I kinda prefer the mechanic of assigning digging-dragons to the land because then you can just wait and let them dig: it's more of an idle mechanic than having to click a lot. Although... we could have both: manual digging and dragon digging! Yeah...

[eternaldensity]

How about upon hatching, dragons can be released from the nest onto the NP that you're currently observing. Once they're on an NP they can be sent to the next or previous NP. Once you build a device thingy you'll eventually be able to harness your achronal dragon to take dragons from an NP to an achronal holding pen, and then release them on another NP at your leisure.

[waveney]

I am slightly concerned with the amount of data this may need storing, if one ends up having to record how many dragons of what type are at every np and how much has been dug there. LocalStorage can hold a lot more than cookies, but it is still finite.

[LucidCrux]

The practical limit is 2.5 million characters though. The saves are nowhere close to that even if dragon stuff doubled the size. As for all the other stuff, it seems like you guys have pretty different ideas for the dragon stuff. I'll just let you guys sort it out.

(BTW I'm taking a bit of a break from coding SCB, just a bit burnt out. I'll get back to it in another week or two.)

[eternaldensity]

If we put reasonable limits on the number of dragons that can exist at a time, and the number of NP on which dragonish activity can occur, we should be able to keep things reasonable.

[waveney]

The practical limit is 2.5 million characters though. The saves are nowhere close to that even if dragon stuff doubled the size. As for all the other stuff, it seems like you guys have pretty different ideas for the dragon stuff. I'll just let you guys sort it out.

I don't hink we are a million Q apart, I am letting the ideas mingle and will probably start larger scale coding in a few days.

(BTW I'm taking a bit of a break from coding SCB, just a bit burnt out. I'll get back to it in another week or two.)

I havn't done much for the last few days either, but for compleatly different reasons (ED knows why)

[waveney]

I have just pushed to the master, a large chunk of (unfinished) draconic work...