Revisiting Prizes

[LucidCrux]

Prizes need some discussion. Some need moved to different tiers. It has also been suggested the mechanism(s) for unlocking them be changed. So, here is an issue to discuss it.

[EPSIL0N]

Sorry for the lengthiness of my posts.

In general I think with the existence of the multibuy options for the boosts that the need to use the bags and molpy down is not unreasonable for unlocking most of the prizes.

I could use some clarification if single use prizes such as Sandblast and Single Double are supposed to spawn a new prize on use? If so how often and does that include themselves? I swear I've used them and had mixed results where sometimes a prize is awarded and other times it is not.

Regarding moving prizes between tiers I've only experienced tier 1 prizes but I would say that it should be split into two different tiers as some of the prizes are genuinely useful while others I only accept as I need them for the next bag.

I would move the following boosts down a tier to something like a Grab Bag or Loot Bag that would be available alongside the BoH or at least not locking out the BoH. Glass Goat: 1W of Glass goes pretty far, often upto the point of TF and Glass Saw. Double Tap: Clicking is on and off and this is overshadowed in my mind by Bone Clicker Double Department: I am unsure of the usefulness of this, does it also boost QQs or Logicats? Sandblast and Single Double: These have use but if they are only supposed to be used and give another prize once or never per molpy down they become a useless prize as using them just adds another molpy down to the timeline before reaching the next bag.

[DVD-CZ]

I would keep getting prizes for molpying down... maybe the ones owned could be kept (and not exchanged for other).

[TFMurphy]

Single use prizes spawn any prize, including themselves. It is therefore safe to use them: you'll either get another Single Use prize, or a permenant prize. Entirely up to the player what they prefer. The exception to the above, however, is the T3 Prize GoatONG, which grants 0 Prizes on lock or reset. That means it's useless for Molpy Down, and almost entirely useless for using (spend 10 Goats to cause an ONG... a single use prize that, if gotten randomly during T3, increases the number of times you have to Molpy Down to finish T3, and even when you're in T4, only gives you an extra free NP).

Double Department only works on clicking Redundakitties. QQs, Logicats and Factory Automation are completely unaffected. This does make it a fairly weak boost.

As for Double Tap... I really don't see why you'd think Bone Clicker overshadows it. Bonemeal is difficult to get fairly early, even during T1. The more important thing here is that Double Tap makes every beach click immediately count for twice. That means twice the Mustard when you're farming Mustard, but more importantly, it means that Bag Puns and VJ activate twice as fast. With Double Tap and Shortsaw, every 10 clicks will cause a VJ activation (compared to 20 with just Shortsaw, 50 with just Double Tap or 100 with neither).

The one disadvantage to Double Tap is that it means you can no longer 'single click' the Beach: so if you click on the beach to jump through a Temporal Rift, you will immediately ninja the NPBs in the new ONG with your Double Tap'd click. Not a big disadvantage since you can always jump through Temporal Rifts manually through the boost itself or the log, but it's there.

[EPSIL0N]

I can see the use in double tap now that you explained it and I guess difficult is a relative term as when i was starting bonemeal I had been in a few discussions about the generous vs greedy system and was able to set up my zookeeper to stop production at a time that would be ideal for getting generous while focused on another task so in terms of the sand and glass boost it was 2x vs 2000x on my first molpy down.

[LucidCrux]

I've had an idea for this. It is pretty much an overhaul to the way prizes are done. Tickets.You know those prize tickets you get at arcades for playing games? Yeah.

So. Achieving certain things in the game would award you with a number of tickets. For instance getting infinite sand and castles would each earn you one ticket. Things farther on could offer more, it doesn't have to be just one ticket for each thing.

The way it would work is that you then get to spend tickets to acquire permanent boosts (prizes). Tiers would be gone. Instead, each prize would cost a certain number of tickets and you could spend them however you want.

Bags would have to be reworked slightly, I think bag of holding could still unlock just the same and since tickets are stuff, you could then begin stockpiling them. Even before then though, this would allow people to get some of the cheap prizes if they wanted to without making it all the way to boh.

I am not sure on the other bags, either just offer them as straight up prizes themselves, or have them as rewards for buying a certain number of prizes. Or how about them expensive, so people can save up and buy them if they want, but they are also rewarded for free after x prizes. That way if people only want a couple of the prizes but all the bags they could do that, too.

I was thinking that perhaps prizes would only be added to the shop on molpy down and then removed when you don't have the tickets to afford them, but that might not be ideal. It might be good to have them purchasable whenever from a special shop so that people a long ways in that haven't got prizes yet could spend a bunch of them before they molpy down the first time (or not at all).

This way of doing things would allow us to assign some rough worth to boosts depending on their perceived usefulness without worrying about sorting them and assigning tiers and forcing players to get things they think are pointless. It is potentially more work than just rejiggering tiers (which no one seems to want to do anyways) and I think it would feel more rewarding for players.

[LucidCrux]

Unless anyone objects to this, I think I'd like to start on doing the ticket thing this weekend. I know little usually gets done on the weekend here, but hopefully you guys will at least check comments before the hiatus.

[eternaldensity]

Yes please, I really like the sound of that!

[waveney]

Go for it. I am balancing the next stages of Goats and Mustard boosts, and starting on nest lining. I will be around tomorrow but not much of Sunday.

[LucidCrux]

Groovy.

[subanark]

You should probably rework GoatONG in this case. Maybe put in the 100 hour cooldown. Maybe require you own all other prizes. Maybe redo it to allow getting back "lost new pix advancements".

[LucidCrux]

Should we make it so that some prizes are only unlocked after a certain number of molpy downs or some other soft tiering mechanism? I say other mechanism because number of downs could be gamed by people that know and just molpy down like 10 times when they first start.

I'm just thinking it could still be nice to have some kind prize unlocking instead of making everything available right away.

Second, it would help me out if people want to suggest some milestones that give tickets. Right now, I just have the obvious X=infinity. Badges can be milestones, so even just some badges people think should also be milestones would be good.

And third. Should we reserve a couple particularly useful boosts and/or make some for something like golden tickets that can be earned by completing challenge runs? I know this is getting ahead of myself a bit, but it is a requested feature and I would hate to make something available through normal means that we then turn around and make a reward for a challenge.

[subanark]

1. You could make some of the easier prizes given out (like infinite castles) when the player gains a badge that is related to that goal, so it can't be repeated. You can also make the later tiers cost more tickets, and reward more as the game progresses. I don't think you need to hide the other prizes, just show them all on first ticket (sorted by lowest cost to highest) and let them choose one or save up.
2. The prizes don't need to be milestones, they can also be things you go a bit out of your way to get. Ideas on milestones: Do a perfect multi-solve. Load X amount of chips. Reach NP X Buy X time lord levels at once Play Monty X times Get X redundant kitty clicks Solve X uncaged redundant kitties Get a redundant kitty chain up to X Have X number of pages of boosts being shown. Autosave X number of times Ninja streak up to X
3. When you add challenge modes, you can add unique buffs at that point. I don't think coming up with more special prizes is all that difficult (especially since we don't know when you can do challenge modes, and some of those prizes are quite powerful if you could have them early in the game).

[waveney]

Should we make it so that some prizes are only unlocked after a certain number of molpy downs or some other soft tiering mechanism? I say other mechanism because number of downs could be gamed by people that know and just molpy down like 10 times when they first start.

I like the soft tiered approach. Many things currently can be achieved many ways, it would be nice if this was true of prizes.

I'm just thinking it could still be nice to have some kind prize unlocking instead of making everything available right away.

Sounds appropriate

Second, it would help me out if people want to suggest some milestones that give tickets. Right now, I just have the obvious X=infinity. Badges can be milestones, so even just some badges people think should also be milestones would be good.

They should be challenging and not too frequent. I am not a good judge as to how long game play it would take to get to some of these as too much has changed since I went through the early layers.

And third. Should we reserve a couple particularly useful boosts and/or make some for something like golden tickets that can be earned by completing challenge runs? I know this is getting ahead of myself a bit, but it is a requested feature and I would hate to make something available through normal means that we then turn around and make a reward for a challenge.

Yes. Some will be unlocked by Dragon activities. Some Dragon activities may need certain przes. Remember there are players out there who have never Molpied down at all (I have only done it once, a long time ago).

You could make some of the easier prizes given out (like infinite castles) when the player gains a badge that is related to that goal, so it can't be repeated. You can also make the later tiers cost more tickets, and reward more as the game progresses. I don't think you need to hide the other prizes, just show them all on first ticket (sorted by lowest cost to highest) and let them choose one or save up.

Careful this doesn't duplicate badges and what they represent.

The prizes don't need to be milestones, they can also be things you go a bit out of your way to get. Ideas on milestones: Do a perfect multi-solve. Load X amount of chips. Reach NP X Buy X time lord levels at once Play Monty X times Get X redundant kitty clicks Solve X uncaged redundant kitties Get a redundant kitty chain up to X Have X number of pages of boosts being shown. Autosave X number of times Ninja streak up to X

Again this repeats what a lot of Badges represent.

When you add challenge modes, you can add unique buffs at that point. I don't think coming up with more special prizes is all that difficult (especially since we don't know when you can do challenge modes, and some of those prizes are quite powerful if you could have them early in the game).

Many of the curent prizes are fairly insignificant, we should take care not to imbalance the game.

[eternaldensity]

Maybe give tickets for the first Molpy Down after reaching various newpix. Maybe every weeks worth of play, past a certain point. (If you pass 2 milestones you'd need to Molpy Down twice to get both lots of tickets.) So Molpy Down will help towards getting prizes, though it's not required.

[LucidCrux]

Wow... I should not have taken a break halfway through this. No progress on this is going to be made until I reacquaint myself with what and how I've done it so far. Oh well. I am back on the case, albeit with a more limited amount of time. Hopefully have it fully functioning if not fully populated in a week or two.

[eternaldensity]

Thanks.

[LucidCrux]

Edit: Post is no longer relevent, I'll post something else for prize price/unlock stuff again at another time.

[subanark]

Is there anything that prevents from just using MDs from the start a few times? Or using it multiple times once the prize shop is unlocked (which is done how)?

In particular Spare Tool should be either impossible or very difficult to unlock before TF.

Also, Crunch with Mustard is basically a troll prize, using it sets you back a lot.

[LucidCrux]

Eh, some of those are actually going to change now that I took a little break and am thinking more clearly again (Like I said, pulling an all nighter). For the most part they should only be locked for spoiler type reasons with some exceptions, and then it's the price that will effect the difficulty to obtain.

For spare tool, actually I think it will just be unlocked with the shop (see above for reason). It will just be costly to get, definitely more tickets than you'll have when the shop first opens up.

Also, I've fixed crunchy with mustard, it won't allow you to go below 2500 kitty clicks and that can be changed later if something require more clicks for some reason. It's more of a novelty prize than a useful one.

Lastly, I forgot that the one use prizes are going to need to fix. Some kind of cooldown or similar...so damn. Still more functional stuff I have to work out along with all the more tedious and balancy stuff.

[LucidCrux]

Alright, redo. Here is the list of unlock conditions for the current prizes. If you think something needs changed, let me know. The main thing is to avoid spoilers by unlocking too soon, but there are some exceptions for different reasons (like bags, between the cracks, and goatONG just because). This is NOT when they will be able to purchase them, some prizes are going to be sitting in the prize shop for a long time before they get enough tickets to actually afford it. I'll deal with prices later.

Bag of Holding

Stuff isn't reset when you Molpy Down, at a cost of 10 Bonemeal. Holds 1W Stuff. [Unchanged and has to be made through blackprints]

Glass Goat

Glass produced by Glass Furnace/Blower is multiplied by the number of Goats you have, if any. [Unlocks on Goats unlock or Furnace, or Blower purchase, whichever is last]

Bone Clicker

Sand and Glass Chips from clicking are multliplied by the amount of Bonemeal you have, if any. [Unlocks on Bonemeal unlock]

Double Department

Redundakitties activate the DoRD twice when they would activate it once. [Unlocks on DoRD unlock]

Spare Tools

Every dig-click builds you a free random tool [Unlocks on prize shop unlock]

Doubletap

Every dig-click counts twice. [Unlock on prize shop unlock]

Single Double

Builds the amount of castles you have. (Single use only) [Unlock on prize shop unlock]

Sandblast

Recieve 1M sand per Badge you own. (Single use only) [Unlocks on prize shop unlock]

Short Saw

VITSSÅGEN, JA! occurs 5 times as often [Unlocks at VJ purchase]

Gruff

When you win the Monty Haul prize, you get 2 goats [unlocks on Goats Unlock]

Between the Cracks

If you have infinite Sand production, Boost purchases do not cost any Sand or Castles. [Unlocks at NP +/-1001]

Soul Drain

Shadow Dragon has a 10% chance of producing bonemeal when Not Lucky occurs [Unlocks on Shadow Dragon purchase]

Rush Job

Mysterious Representations produces Blackprints 5 times as fast [Unlock on Mys Rep purchase]

Void Goat

Travel through a Temporal Rift yields a Goat if you have Flux Surge [Unlocks with flux crystal unlock or goat, whichever unlocks last]

Factory Expansion

More Factory Automation levels are available through Rosetta [Unlocks after Automata Engineers purchase]

Mustard Automation

Automata Assemble can run with Mustard Tools, at a cost of 20 Mustard per run [Unlocks with 1 mustard tool]

Musical Chairs

Doubles the effect of People Sit on Chairs [Unlock on NP 1234] because...???

Glass Trolling

If you type "OK, GLASS" into the import box, the cost of making Glass Blocks from Glass Chips is reduced by a factor of 5 until the next ONG [Unlocks at Infinite Glass Blocks]

Fast Forward

Go directly to the highest NewPix visited. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 goats. (Single use only)' [Unlocks on Time Lord unlock]

Archimedes's Lever

If a Monument Maker is idle, it will start making the cheapest monument available at a cost of 10 Bonemeal. [Unlocks on 1+ Glass Monument]

Would have been useful a month ago

Instantly win the game. (Single use only) (Doesn't actually do anything) [Unlocks at NP 3089+]

Eww

Convert 1K Mustard into 20 Bonemeal [Unlocks at Mustard or Bonemeal, whichever is unlocked last]

GoatONG

Spend 10 Goats and cause an ONG. (Single use only) [Unlocks at NP 2000 or 7,777 goats]

Mustard Injector

Spend 200 Mustard to convert a random tool to Mustard. (Or all at once) [Unlock at 2000 Mustard (same as Mustard Sale) ]

Crunchy with Mustard

Pay 5K Mustard to reset your kitty click count to 0 and gain 1 Bonemeal per 20 clicks [Unlocks at 5k mustard]

Bag of Moulding

Mould Boosts aren't reset when you Molpy Down, at a cost of 100 Bonemeal. [Unlocks on 4 Downs or 50+ Glass Monuments]

Bag of Folding

Toggle Boosts (apart from Glass Furnace and Glass Blower) aren't reset when you Molpy Down, at a cost of 1000 Bonemeal [Unlocks on 6 Downs or NP 1500+]

Negator

Flip in and out of Minus worlds at a cost of 1 Flux Crystal [Unlocks on visit to a minus pix after unlocking flux crystals]

Bag of Jolting

Chronotech Boosts aren\'t reset when you Molpy Down, at a cost of 10000 Bonemeal [Unlocks on 8 Downs or Time Lord Level > 422 (The day river shoots the doctor)]

Crystal Memories

Gain a Flux Crystal whenever you use Memories Revisited during Flux Surge, at a cost of half the Flux Surge countdown. [Unlocks at with flux crystal or memories revisited, whichever unlocks last]

Twice Tools

Double the number of a random Tool at a cost of 5 Flux Crystals. [Unlocks with flux crystals]

Lubrication

Glass Furnace and Glass Blower's switching time is reduced by 99% (uses 100 Mustard per toggle). [Unlock on Furnace or Blower purchase, whichever is last]

Riser

Unlocks the Seaish Glass boosts much sooner. [Unlocks after seaish block or chip purchase, whichever is last]

Mould Press

If you have Automation Optimiser, Mould tasks run again to use up any leftover Factory Automation runs. [Unlocks after buying Automata Engineers]

[waveney]

Glass Goat - This is VERY powerful, and would make a lot of the basic glass grind far far too easy, either downgrade or make harder to get.

No other comments at the moment.

[LucidCrux]

Well, this isn't the price to actually buy it. In all likelihood, a player won't be able to actually buy it until they are well into the game or have molpied down at least once (if not more). As it stands now, Glass Goat is a pretty cheap tier 1 prize people are getting after a single molpy down in some cases. Prices will be more of where the balance aspect comes in. The unlocks are mostly to display them with some exceptions like for the bags where the unlock might be a bit of a progress check or GoatONG just to string along the unlocks a bit since it is absolutely going to be LONG time after goats are gotten till the player can afford it.

So, I think the unlock for Glass Goat is fine, but we can definitely price it higher than maybe its current tier 1 standing would translate. I am going to ask for lots of help figuring out the pricing (and tickets rewarded for milestones) when I get to that. But right now, I just have a few very basic milestones in and not even the slightest idea of further milestones and the number of tickets they will reward. So trying to price things just yet would be kind of pointless really. : (

For example: Infinite Sand = 1 ticket, Infinite Castles = 1 ticket, Badge for Inf. Sand & Cast. = 1 ticket (non repeatable), So how many tickets should Inf Blocks reward? How about Glass Ceiling 10, or 12... should 10 and 12 get milestones or just 12? Lots of tedious stuff to try to get a first run at, then balance passes can start.

[eternaldensity]

Has my old idea of changing the Single Use prizes to Once Per (Long) Time Period stuck around?

Heh, I too was thinking that GG looks rather powerful. I think that was added before all the new extra ways to get goats :D

[LucidCrux]

Yeah, that's the next thing I've barely started on. So many distractions.

[eternaldensity]

Awesome.

[erplsf]

Are there still development going in this direction? I'm just wondering as a player - I'm currently halfway to third bag, and want to know ill it worth a grind if system is going to be redesigned? :)

[waveney]

LucidCrux has gone very quiet, I hope he releases what he has done.

[erplsf]

Even unfinished work will be welcome.

On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Richard Proctor notifications@github.com wrote:

LucidCrux has gone very quiet, I hope he releases what he has done.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/eternaldensity/Sandcastle-Builder/issues/724#issuecomment-50380469 .

[eternaldensity]

Doesn't look like it's happening especially soon.