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ether / etherpad-lite

Etherpad: A modern really-real-time collaborative document editor.
http://docs.etherpad.org/
Apache License 2.0
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etherpad lite start page (index.html) input line does not have auto-focus in IE8.0 #276

Closed Wikinaut closed 11 years ago

Wikinaut commented 12 years ago

Please repair this in the core. I supplied a fix some weeks ago, but you decided to revert it and to rely on the HTML5 "autofocus" attribute.

But HTML5 "autofocus" does not work in IE8.0, and we should not ignore the poor IE8.0 users.

Basically you need something like (this ís working)

    <body onload="document.mainform.padname.focus();">
      <form action="#" name="mainform" onsubmit="go2Name();return false;"> 
                <input type="text" name="padname" id="padname" autofocus> 
                <input type="submit" value="OK"> 
       </form> 
      </body>
JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

@0ip

0ip commented 12 years ago

My condolence to all the poor IE8.0 users out there. I know, it's hard and painful to open Chrome's website. A lot of dangerous creatures could appear and it's highly possible that they'll exploit your computers! What's wrong with upgrading to Chrome or Firefox? Even IE9 would be sufficent. MS has learned from its mistakes and IE9 is a good step in the right direction of web development.

IE8/IE9 comparison

[Source: netmarketshare.com]

If you're in a restrictive work environment, you can avoid installations by using portable versions which have various advantages. These IE specific fallbacks slow down development, restrain innovations and forces developers to write messy and hacky code. IE8 scores 20/100 at Acid3 - a test which checks for basic standard W3C HTML support. Not to speak of other tests.

If you want autofocus for IE8, you can paste document.getElementById('padname').focus() in your custom js file. It's designed for those things. But I won't support this. Etherpad Lite is a young piece of software and uses modern technologies - IE8 accomodations would represent a retrograde step.

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

I disagree with 0ip's sentiment entirely.

0ip: We have 10k+ workstations with IE8 on, you know why I don't upgrade to IE9? Because that requires a new OS at the cost of ~$200 per workstation. You know why I don't deploy FF or Chrome? Because that would require tens of thousands of dollars in training costs. So that's $250,000 because 0ip didn't want to use one line of code. Do you want to cover these costs? If so, I will give you an address to send a cheque to.

I suggest you sit down with a network manager and talk about just how difficult end users can be. Any change in any large organisation is extremely difficult. I'm happy to discuss this further with you as it's obviously something you aren't aware of and I may be able to help you understand your audience better.

TLDR: Change for end users can create an unhappy workforce

Note: document.mainform.padname.focus() would not represent a retrograde step, it would represent supporting a legacy browser better.

-----Original Message----- From: 0ip [mailto:reply@reply.github.com] Sent: 07 December 2011 11:55 To: John McLear Subject: Re: [etherpad-lite] etherpad lite start page (index.html) input line does not have auto-focus in IE8.0 (#276)

My condolence for all the poor IE8.0 users out there. I know, it's hard and painful to open Chrome's website. A lot of dangerous creatures could appear and it's highly possible that they'll exploit your computers! What's wrong with upgrading to Chrome or Firefox? Even IE9 would be sufficent. MS learned from it's mistakes and IE9 is a good step in the right direction of web development. If you're in a restrictive work environment, you can avoid installations by using portable versions which have various advantages. This IE specific fallbacks slow down development, restrain innovations and forces you to write messy and hacky code. IE8 scores 20/100 @ Acid3 - a test which checks for basic html standards. Not to speak of other tests.

If you want autofocus for IE8, you can paste document.mainform.padname.focus() in your custom js file. I won't support this. Etherpad Lite is a young and promising piece of software and uses modern technologies - IE8 accomodations would represent a retrograde step.

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/Pita/etherpad-lite/issues/276#issuecomment-3046311 This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation from which this email originated. If you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments, you must take no action based upon them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. This email was sent by School Email - Safe Webmail and Hosted Email for Schools

0ip commented 12 years ago

[...] tens of thousands of dollars in training costs [...]

Of course. Nice hyperbole. It's a wrong assumption that a transition from IE to FF requires so much knowledge. For sure, many people have Firefox at home and therefor know how to use it.

[...] would not represent a retrograde step [...]

If there's a modern variant of it, it is. You don't call this a retrograde step, even if every browser today supports it - except IE?

Why can't @Wikinaut simply put this line into his custom js? Why so difficult? And apart from that, why must EVERYTHING work in IE, even an autofocus of one input form? If a company likes to maintain an old version of this IE usability hell, their employees have to deal with it. A typical IE user doesn't have a problem to click several times on a textfield. He's accustomed to click through untidy menus and to see not well rendered pages.

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

It's a wrong assumption that a transition from IE to FF requires so much knowledge. <-- I disagree, you are making the assumption that:

a) The user knows what software is b) The user is aware they have a choice c) The user has the knowledge to make a choice d) The user knows how to install software

All of these things are only understood in the first world by default and by only relatively young people.

TLDR: I disagree.

-----Original Message----- From: 0ip [mailto:reply@reply.github.com] Sent: 07 December 2011 16:10 To: John McLear Subject: Re: [etherpad-lite] etherpad lite start page (index.html) input line does not have auto-focus in IE8.0 (#276)

tens of thousands of dollars in training costs

Of course. Nice hyperbole. It's a wrong assumption that a transition from IE to FF requires so much knowledge. For sure, many people have Firefox at home and therefor know how to use it.

[...] would not represent a retrograde step [...]

If there's a modern variant of it, it is. You don't call this a retrograde step, even if every browser supports it - except IE?

Why can't @Wikinaut simply put this line into his custom js? Why so difficult? And apart from that, why must EVERYTHING work in IE, even autofocus of one input form?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/Pita/etherpad-lite/issues/276#issuecomment-3049056 This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation from which this email originated. If you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments, you must take no action based upon them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. This email was sent by School Email - Safe Webmail and Hosted Email for Schools

0ip commented 12 years ago

first world by default and by only relatively young people

Sounds like our target audience...

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

Disagree.

Etherpad is used in the UN, in areas of hostility, in law offices, in universities. All of which tend to run IE8.

Our target audience is not young people. Our target audience is anyone who wants to collaborate in really real time.

Fact of the matter is 40% of the users of Etherpad use IE. 25% FF, 22% Chrome, 10% safari.

If you had things your way we would be excluding 40% of our users, I'm not willing to let that happen :)

Where are you getting your stats from? What source are you using for information? How are you understanding who is/isn't our target audience? Are you doing it based on opinion or fact? I have spent enough time discussing this IMHO. Bit disappointed it took this long for you to hopefully now understand that you

-----Original Message----- From: 0ip [mailto:reply@reply.github.com] Sent: 07 December 2011 16:17 To: John McLear Subject: Re: [etherpad-lite] etherpad lite start page (index.html) input line does not have auto-focus in IE8.0 (#276)

first world by default and by only relatively young people

Sounds like our target audience...

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/Pita/etherpad-lite/issues/276#issuecomment-3049158 This email and its attachments may be confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation from which this email originated. If you are not the intended recipient of this email and its attachments, you must take no action based upon them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone. Please contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error. This email was sent by School Email - Safe Webmail and Hosted Email for Schools

0ip commented 12 years ago

40% IE and how much of that is Version 9?

What about collecting IE specific code in the custom.js file? That way we could separate 'clean' and 'temporary-ie' code. If the vast majority has upgraded to > IE9, we can simply remove this file. Otherwise we have a lot of mixed junk/legacy code in a few years.

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

IE8 = 85.02%

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

@0ip -- what is the status on this? I want to close this today.

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

@0ip an update please?

0ip commented 12 years ago

I'm still holding the opinion that it's unnecessary to add a fallback for such an infinitesimally small "feature". If it's absolutely necessary add it as far as I'm concerned.

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

Please :)

Wikinaut commented 12 years ago

I told you, it's mandatory to have for all IE8.0 users.

JohnMcLear commented 12 years ago

How to make friends and influence people by @Wikinaut -_-

JohnMcLear commented 11 years ago

To celebrate the launch of Windows 8 I'm closing this bug.