Badminton second contract

[vvatikiotis]

A contract amendment is being drafted as we speak. Please include any additional things we have to arrange with BT. We need to include costs as well:

• wardrobe (N21)
• bar, coffee + waters (N21)
• power installation (euruko)
• streaming (euruko)
• band
• whatelse

We need this ASAP!!!

[apantsiop]

ASAP = tonight (if possible)

[vvatikiotis]

No extra costs for us, as BT is concerned for:

• power installation
• streaming

[nolamesa]

Do you think it would make sense to negotiate food at this point (fruits, beers, etc)? Also, I assume WiFi is covered by the previous contract.

I am not sure if we could/should add something about covering the unused seats at the theater (if this comes at no extra cost).

I can't think of anything else (I guess security and doctor do not need to be mentioned in the contract)

On 8 Ιουν 2013, at 15:19, Vassilis Vatikiotis notifications@github.com wrote:

A contract amendment is being drafted as we speak. Please include any additional things we have to arrange with BT. We need to include costs as well:

wardrobe (N21) bar, coffee + waters (N21) power installation (euruko) streaming (euruko) band whatelse We need this ASAP!!!

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

[vvatikiotis]

This is about costs between us and BT. WiFi and what I wrote above incur no cost to us.

Fruit and beers. I will ask.

[apantsiop]

No, not beers. We got a no from the "man" himself and there is the Insurance thingy to consider. Thus, too many argues already not to do it (and there is the adiional back and forth lg we cannot tolerate at this point) Fruit yes (in the same manner as coffee and water, we pay the bar delivers). Fruit is no hussle for them only profit. If they say no to fruit in the first second, I would not puruit further though.

I would leave the seats as they are. I get your point Nikos but if someone wants to retract a little bit to do some stuff (or take a nap) and he/she isn't interested at the current talk it would be good to give him/her the option to sit alone for a little while. Let's not "Birsim" the setup :P And let's not spent our money on seat covers like our mother would :)

[nikosd]

I'm ok with your suggestion Apostole, but I believe that the rest of the money should actually go to fine tunings of the event itself, like this one...

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Apostolos Pantsiopoulos < notifications@github.com> wrote:

No, not beers. We got a no from the "man" himself and there is the Insurance thingy to consider. Thus, too many argues already not to do it (and there is the adiional back and forth lg we cannot tolerate at this point) Fruit yes (in the same manner as coffee and water, we pay the bar delivers). Fruit is no hussle for them only profit. If they say no to fruit in the first second, I would not puruit further though.

I would leave the seats as they are. I get your point Nikos but if someone wants to retract a little bit to do some stuff (or take a nap) and he/she isn't interested at the current talk it would be good to give him/her the option to sit alone for a little while. Let's not "Birsim" the setup :P And let's not spent our money on seat covers like our mother would :)

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/euruko2013/committee/issues/128#issuecomment-19148196 .

[apantsiop]

OK. I get that. But, we cannot stall any longer. If we really want those stuff we need to decide ASAP. And we cannot make an asynch voting for each and everyone of them, it will take way too long. So, we need to do a hangout today or tomorrow morning, at the latest. At least 5 of us.

To cut the long story short, we need to have the contract additions by tomorrow afternoon, in order for N21 to work on them, otherwise they'll hold us accountable for delays (and they will be right this time).

So, who's for a hangout tomorrow morning?

[nikosd]

I'm in.

On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Apostolos Pantsiopoulos < notifications@github.com> wrote:

OK. I get that. But, we cannot stall any longer. If we really want those stuff we need to decide ASAP. And we cannot make an asynch voting for each and everyone of them, it will take way too long. So, we need to do a hangout today or tomorrow morning, at the latest. At least 5 of us.

To cut the long story short, we need to have the contract additions by tomorrow afternoon, in order for N21 to work on them, otherwise they'll hold us accountable for delays (and they will be right this time).

So, who's for a hangout tomorrow morning?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/euruko2013/committee/issues/128#issuecomment-19148661 .

[apantsiop]

OK. Let's do it at 11. Trade-off between early birds and late wakers.

[fotos]

I might make it at 11:00 but in case I don't:

• +1 for fruits as long as they doesn't cost way too much. Waters are at 420 € (excl. VAT), I'd expect something similar (if not less) for the fruits
• -1 for beers (Apostolos mentioned the reasons already)
• +1 wardrobe (and we have budgeted this at 120 € (excl. VAT)
• +1 for covering the seats, it was free of cost. It was the curtain that would cost around 1.000 €.
• I don't know if the booths are covered by the 1st contract or if we should mention them at all
• We need to clarify the WiFi / Internet installation in the amendment with the exact dates
• Perhaps we need to clarify the Catering issue as well (minimum 100) and if these are not covered they will be paid by EuRuKo at a cost of X € / each or something.

[vvatikiotis]

• Catering is not included in the contract. BT is not involved (From Marian). I'll ask Marian if we can put the dates (19 June) in it. IMO it's not necessary, I'll ask though.
• WiFi and power is not included in the contract. We do not pay anything for this. The installations have to be OK'ed from BT and that's it.
• seats: I'd say leave it. A camera and the video console will go in the 1st 5 rows of the theater's second section. Additionally, let's not put constraints in our problems.
• fruits: I told Marian to ask the bar to have fruits, which the delegates are going to pay. Budget permitting and since the cost is low, and (again) if the budget permits it, we'll offer this to our delegates.

About power: Everything is a puzzle with a few question marks. @pagojo is chasing it asking everyone, everything, anytime. On Monday we will know if we can shave 2K, and with this money pay the electricians. Additionally we'll know about the master cables, if our contacts are available. Even going with plan B (charging stations) will require money, because we cannot have charging stations inside the theater (there are no sockets), and in the foyer there are so many sockets (which means BT may need to place additional cabling-> contract). As I said it's a puzzle. And we need to keep an eye on the budget to solve this. Even 200 or 300 euros could be critical.

[vvatikiotis]

The following

"I'll ask Marian if we can put the dates (19 June) in it. IMO it's not necessary, I'll ask though."

goes to WiFi (2nd bullet, not 1st)

[pagojo]

One point to remind you.

VDEL will need to hook their gear to the Badmindon video production console. P. Georgas said that was cool. In any case just bring it to their attention.

[vvatikiotis]

• Sound engineer has to be available on Thu 27 for sound checks for the band.
• For the band equipment we need a quote from BT.

[vvatikiotis]

• Fruits for everyone is difficult, in terms of logistics, for the bar as they haven't done it before. And it will delay the contract, since the bar has to contact suppliers and get quotes, availability.. Also, Marian's very rough, probably innacurate cost estimate is 1.4 euro per delegate (770 in total). My major concern was the contract delay so I told her to proceed with the plan so far i.e. the bar will arrange fruits but it will not be for 550 ppl and the delegates will pay for it.
• N21 needs Skroutz booth specs i.e. dimensions, setup time, power reqs etc.
• Lunch ordering opens tomorrow and closes Mon 26 as the catering company needs some time to prepare the menus. This depends on the number of menus, so we may tweak the closing date, judging from lunch demand.
• BT can accomodate a small number of eaters, as it has stools and benches. If we 20 or 30 orders then these are enough and the bar will distribute the menus. For more, catering will set things up accordingly.
• We cannot have extra menus unless we are ready to pay them in full. So if catering brings 20 extra menus, we have to pay them, regardless of how many they sell. They will not bring 20 menus and sell them 'retail', cause if they don't sell out they take the damage. No go.
• BT's curtain and what N21 did with 'another' curtain is basically the same thing, they used BT's curtain to cover the upper section of the theater, they didn't setup something of their own. It costs 2K. No go.
• Check with BT sound engineer. Marian has got the band's specs (instrument etc) and is asking a quote from ΒΤ's sound engineer.
• Band will setup on Thursday 27, the setup stays on stage. We may need to tweak the setup a bit, as it cannot interfere with the back-projector. Meaning, the band's setup not going to be dead center on stage, but a few meters (6-7) to the left or right.
• As far as the contract and booths, wifi, catering is concerned, we are good, they are not in the contract.
• Streaming. Not in contract. vDEL streaming equipment will need to hook up to BT and that's it. Georgas has been informed about it and he's OK, no extra charge.

[vvatikiotis]

The above after I talked to Marian....

Signing off for some hours, I'm deathing

[fotos]

Some quick remarks:

• We don't have to arrange fruits for 550 delegates. That was not our intention AFAIK. All you had to ask for was for the catering bring some fruits and we'll cover their cost. Let's say 200 € for some bananes, apples, oranges, etc. First come, first serve basis, until supplies last. We don't try to feed everyone with fruits. Unfortunately, I think, you gave the wrong instructions to Marian. :( Can you clarify and make this happen? Here is the sentence for the amendment in Greek:

  Η εταιρεία catering θα παρέχει μια ποικιλία από φρούτα (ενδεικτικά μπανάνες, μήλα, αχλάδια, πορτοκάλια) στους delegates, συνολικού κόστους 200 € (πλέον ΦΠΑ) τα οποία θα πληρωθούν από την διοργανώτρια (EuRuKo) ασχέτως της κατανάλωσής τους. Τα φρούτα θα παρέχονται σε καλάθια με την ένδειξη "Free fruits. Have one!".

I hope it's not that hard to actually do it, is it? (you can omit the last sentence, but I hope you get the spirit)

• About the seats I think you also asked the wrong thing. :( They have said (and I remember this clearly) that we can cover the seats on the upper section for no cost. The curtain that actually closes the whole section and needs to be setup costs 2K. I don't know you mixed them together. Covering the seats is still under consideration.
• What you said is not in the contract amendment (WiFi, etc), shouldn't they be? Why leave them out? And how is this good? Shouldn't we mention in the contract, for example, that the WiFi is gonna be done on 19/06 etc. Or that booths will be installed in the Foyer by the sponsors?
• Everything else is cool.

[vvatikiotis]

• Fruits check. We pay for the fruits 200 euros on a first come first serve.
• So we are not talking about the curtain that separates the upper section, but for a "cover" that cover the seats themselves. Right. I'll ask Marian again. But I should discuss about this option. a) there seems to be some misconception about this (or it's just me) b) I don't agree with covering the seats, it's a half baked solution; either separate the upper section completely or not. In our case we don't use the curtain to separate. So delegates are going to see the seats. No point in covering them. Further more, I would be happy, as a delegates, to "withdraw" to the upper section of the theater, for some time out.
• about booths, wifi. Marian says the contracts are about things that we pay BT for, Not anything else. I'll ask her but, since this is a contract, it could delay things.

[nikosd]

• Regarding the curtains/seats: totally disagree with you @vvatikiotis. There's a very specific reason not to allow people to spread around the theater and that's to not have the theater look empty. There will be enough space in the lower section anyway. And also if the console is in the middle then people won't be allowed behind it in any case.
• Regarding the booths/wifi: Asking to include it in the contract binds Badminton to deliver what has already said to us. Basically let me put this way, if we had done the same with food/bar etc they couldn't tell us "no, you can't bring in your food/beverages". Imagine in one week from now another Badminton spokesman saying: "Oh, I didn't know about the booths. No, you can't set them up"... Not nice :(

In any case, I trust you to decide what's more appropriate and balance out time constraints. Just my 2 cents.

[fotos]

• My train of thought about the seats exactly. The lower section has 1.000 seats IIRC. The delegates can withdraw outside into the Foyer. It will be quiet and they can rest there as well. No need to monitor the whole theater. Also it will look really empty if we don't "force" the people in the lower section. It unnecessarily complicates things without providing any benefit we can't have in another way (i.e. quiet => Foyer). Instead of elaborating about it here we can open an issue and vote on this.
• Well we didn't pay Badminton for the catering and they screwed us over. Mixing feeling about this. If we can write things down then we should. For example did you include a statement about the wardrobe, for which we will pay Badminton?

[fotos]

Elaborate and vote for the seats on this issue until midnight.

[vvatikiotis]

Wardrobe included.

[vvatikiotis]

About fruit: I checked this morning's minutes. "Commit 600eu max".

Tricky thing is that if we don't disclose the amount then discussion gets difficult.

[fotos]

Yes but you had in mind to cover ALL the delegates which is superfluous!

Also you (all of you) should consult me first before proceeding with expenses or you are on your own! I can't find anywhere where I wrote down that this number is available. Please pay attention and read carefully what I write down. I said we can cover about 400 € tops (as we do for the waters) but I'd certainly go for less.

Let's buy 300 € of fruits for the delegates (it should be more than enough).

[vvatikiotis]

Sure, I don't mind that, I agree with you! 300eu it is, not 600.

That amount though, the 600eu was decided during this morning's HO.The contract, which includes a fruit clause, was discussed. You should've made it clear you didn't want us above 420. I'm sure we would 've gone along this, as you are our treasurer. I, for one, don't give a shit about fruit. I'd go for 0 euros fruit if it was up to me.

And you weren't there.

And we erred.

We are sorry.

Παω για υπνος δεν την παλευω αλλο, ειμαι απο τις 10:30, δεν πρεπει να ασχοληθω άλλο σημερα.

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Fotos Georgiadis notifications@github.comwrote:

Yes but you had in mind to cover ALL the delegates which is superfluous!

Also you (all of you) should consult me first before proceeding with expenses or you are on your own! I can't find anywhere where I wrote down that this number is available. Please pay attention and read carefully what I write down. I said we can cover about 400 € tops (as we do for the waters) but I'd certainly go for less.

Let's buy 300 € of fruits for the delegates.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/euruko2013/committee/issues/128#issuecomment-19170060 .

[apantsiop]

Fotos, as Nikos wrote somewhere, we have some fat to burn for stuff like fruit, covers bands etc. We cannot consult you in an asynchronous manner, though. You either have to be present at our Colab meetings or our hangouts. As you yourself said we must decide about stuff like these on the spot. There's no time for back and forth communications. Even if we make the wrong call.

[fotos]

@apantsiop the money we have left are really few and in between and so far we have to cover:

1. Band equipment
2. Fruits
3. PDUs (power / electrical costs)
4. Various small stuff
5. Catering extra costs
6. Bags / lanyards / coupons (we don't have the final costs yet)
7. Coffee / Waters

I'm sorry but I wrote above (before the HO, especially because I didn't know if I would be able to make it), that the budget for the fruits should be around 400 €.

It's not my mistake if you (plural) didn't pay attention or seen it. You can decide for things on the spot but if they involve money I'd rather you consult me. I'm playing it really safe as we get closer to the conference days. Otherwise who is going to be responsible if we end up in the negative?

What will happen in one of these things (and everything else that's hasn't been paid or arranged yet) surpasses the budget we have allocated for it, just like it happened with the t-shirts?

[apantsiop]

ÏÊ. But " I'd expect something similar..." sounds like an estimate/opinion to me, not a hard limit.

-- Apostolos Pantsiopoulos Software Engineer

On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Fotos Georgiadis notifications@github.comwrote:

@apantsiop https://github.com/apantsiop the money we have left are really few and in between and so far we have to cover:

1. Band equipment
2. Fruits
3. PDUs (power / electrical costs)
4. Various small stuff
5. Catering extra costs
6. Bags / lanyards / coupons (we don't have the final costs yet)
7. Coffee / Waters

I'm sorry but I wrote above (before the HO, especially because I didn't know if I would be able to make it), that the budget for the fruits should be around 400 EUROhttp://euruko2013/committee/issues/128#issuecomment-19149694 .

It's not my mistake if you (plural) didn't pay attention or seen it. You can decide for things on the spot but if they involve money I'd rather you consult me. I'm playing it really safe as we get closer to the conference days. Otherwise who is going to be responsible if we end up in the negative?

What will happen in one of these things (and everything else that's hasn't been paid or arranged yet) surpasses the budget we have allocated for it, just like it happened with the t-shirts?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/euruko2013/committee/issues/128#issuecomment-19172751 .

[fotos]

I didn't have the time to put on determining a hard limit. I made a (really) good guestimate trying to accommodate all possible side effects (like the ones you made me mention above). Balancing the budget right now is a polynomial with at least 10 variables. Wanna try? :smile:

[vvatikiotis]

Bottom line:

• We do pay attention and we do see. If you want to be consulted, be present!
• Next time be more precise. "I'd expect something similar" is more vague than, say, "We can't pay more than 400". We do have our share of responsibility but come on!!!!

I will communicate to Marian a 300eu, since I subscribe to a "less than 400", similar to you. I'll do this before 10am, since I've already informed Marian about this. After that N21 is yours.

[vvatikiotis]

Talked to Marian,

• Fruits for 300eu. She'll ask the bar if they can do it, they'll most probably can. Distribution will be dealt with as we said, first come first serve and self service. All these depend on what the bar says. If there are any issues on this, N21 will deal with. They lead it from now on, since they have our final decision.
• Covers, check. The upper section seats, except the first 2 rows (for stretching etc), will be covered . No cost.
• WiFi, booths, power. These are covered in the 1st contract our setup. As long as these installations incur no damage to BT and provided that Bt "sign" them off in terms of safety and compatibility, we are covered. The no cost thing is also covered in the 1st contract since we pay third parties for these installations. Summing all up, since we don't pay BT for any of these, they can't be in the 2nd contract.

As for the "bring whatever you want" Georgas said: Marian assured me that there was no backing up from his part. It was just a matter of miscommunication. N21 could've pressed him, but we chose not, for various reasons.

It will be better to explain this whole thing in person to you guys, since "he-told-us-but-thought-and-N21-did" things are hard to put down in writing. Water under a bridge if you ask me, but we can do this on Wed if anyone wants to.

As far as the 2nd contract goes, it's in N21 hands now, they'l inform us in due time (very shortly, that is)

[fotos]

For the record we signed and paid the extra contract exactly as @vvatikiotis mentioned above.

The extra contract included provisions for:

1. Coffee
2. Water
3. Band
4. Wardrobe

(and some other minor issues)