Reannounce and roll improvement

[SafeteeWoW]

• Add an button to reannounce this item to everyone
• Reroll now also does autopass
• Reroll no longer only reroll unawarded items.
  • I think it doesn't make sense to reroll only unawarded items, because the text didn't mention "unawarded"
• Cleaned up some duplicate code
• Manual roll feature has been abandoned.
• New roll feature: Reannounce to everyone and request rolls. When the user responses in the lootFrame, they automatically does a system roll and announce it in chat and report the result to the ML. (Only do system roll if the response is not "AUTOPASS", "PASS", "TIMEOUT", "DISABLED", "NOTINRAID")
  • As a new feature, this feature does not support backward compatibility.
• There is also another button to request roll from anyone whose roll is the same as the selected candidate, which helps to resolve tiebreakers quickly.

• ML can choose to if he wants to request rolls from raid members for each row in the session frame.

• Auto add rolls won't be active on session that requests rolls
• This PR should be finished if I don't find any bug

[SafeteeWoW]

• Pros of this feature
  • Transparent rolls
  • Make the roll more exciting compared to every roll is done in the voting frame.
  • This is much better than the previous manual roll, because this is more automatic
• Cons:
  • Have to print message which is similar to Blizzard group loot rolls system message to differ the roll to each item. This makes the chat crowded, but I have to in order to implement this feature. But it shouldn't be a big deal, as not everyone would roll on the item.

In a word, this feature makes it possible to fully simulate Blizzard group loot method for some items when the loot method is master. This feature works very similar when you click "Request roll" on the blizzard loot frame. However, Blizzard roll feature is awful because it doesn't show roll result until everyone has rolled, or 3min has passed. This feature fixes that.

[evil-morfar]

Imo rerolls shouldn't be autopassed - it's the only way to "force" a player to roll on a item. That's basically why you added "reroll items the player can use"?

I don't think the button for rolls on each session is necessary - if they really want a roll on specfic session they can do it from the rightclick menu.

I'm also not quite sure if I like the amount of buttons in the rightclickmenu - should probably consider nesting more of them.

Other than that I like it.

[evil-morfar]

Also reroll shouldn't send out awarded items. It doesn't matter if it isn't mentioned - you wouldn't expect already awarded items to be rerolled by default - if you want that you should specificly only reroll that item.

[SafeteeWoW]

Imo rerolls shouldn't be autopassed - it's the only way to "force" a player to roll on a item. That's basically why you added "reroll items the player can use"?

Only no autopass to single item on single person makes senses. No autopass to all items dont. I have removed "reroll items the player can use". If ML wants to override autopass, he really don't need to use "All Items" to override autopass. If the guild really needs to override autopass using all items, ML should ask everyone to disable autopass in the settings.

Also reroll shouldn't send out awarded items. It doesn't matter if it isn't mentioned - you wouldn't expect already awarded items to be rerolled by default - if you want that you should specificly only reroll that item.

Now RCLootCouncil supports to change award. No need to only reroll unawarded items because I can change the award to someone else.

I don't think the button for rolls on each session is necessary - if they really want a roll on specfic session they can do it from the rightclick menu.

I think it's needed. Otherwise if the ML wants people to roll on an item, everyone has to click lootFrame on that item once, then ML requests to roll, everyone has to click lootFrame again. I really don't like this redundancy. Sometime it's obvious to see an item is bad and only worth to be offspec/transmog rolled, or ML decides to just roll on everything unless there is a high Titanforged item, then he would request roll in the session frame. Sometime ML decides to roll only until he sees everyone's response, then he would click request roll buttons in rightclick menu.

I'm also not quite sure if I like the amount of buttons in the rightclickmenu - should probably consider nesting more of them.

I agree. I am considering how to nest them makes the most sense

[SafeteeWoW]

[SafeteeWoW]

I have done nesting the menu. How is this?

[SafeteeWoW]

• It looks like this now. Btw, I have tried the minimize the duplicate code
• Found a bug in lib-st that SortData does not correctly sorts rows with the same responses by rolls. I use SortData twice to fix it.

[SafeteeWoW]

I have tested and finished this PR

[evil-morfar]

Reroll

I'm fine with autopassing on "Reannounce all items", I just read it like all rerolls would be autopassed. As long as "Reannounce this item" isn't autopassed, then it's fine.

The base usecase hasn't changed - no matter which features are implemented. By default you wouldn't even start to award an item if you knew responses are missing. The usecase is someone timeouted/something and we want to reannounce the items to him. Since he autopassed/couldn't use the first two items, we went ahead and awarded them - but we need his response for the remaining, and only the remaining, non-awarded items. The reaward thing is mainly for fuckups, and is not included in any basic reannounce usecases.

Rolls

The reason I don't like the roll buttons on the session frame (besides the extra complexity it adds) is I don't think it's worth putting such a minor feature as rolls on a front row seat. The intent with rolls is to add some randomness when it's needed - which it rarely should be. I understand some people wants to always show these rolls (which they already can) and thus not really use the addon as a loot council addon. But at its core it's intended for use as a loot council tool, not a "easy random roll machine".

You're arguing those buttons needs to be there because the roll is tied to the lootframe - in that case maybe the rolls shouldn't be tied directly to the lootframe. I think your former "manual roll" was fine. If you want to make it more automatic, why not just do a print("You rolled xxx") in the candidates chat? Or maybe do a popup if you really want to involve the users.

Rightclickmenu

I see no reason why you'd like to have class, rank or role as a seperate entry to reannounces. Even response and roll doesn't really seem necessary. Imo it's all just clutter that'll probably never be used.

[SafeteeWoW]

Purpose of this roll feature

1. Everyone rolls for himself is not the same as ML rolls for everyone. Completely different feelings.
   • Imagine how raid members react when he wins or loses "/roll" to the other one, compared this with ML says "the addon shows you lose the roll"
2. transparency. Everyone knows what he rolls.
3. fairness. Server roll is always fair.

Only reannounce to unawarded items???

Okay

Rightclickmenu

I can remove class, rank, or role, but response and roll are definitely useful. Roll is used to break ties in case roll is the same. Response is used in case you want to request rolls from people who clicked "Need". In those scenarios, these options are very very useful.

Rolls button on session

I understand some people wants to always show these rolls (which they already can) and thus not really use the addon as a loot council addon. But at its core it's intended for use as a loot council tool, not a "easy random roll machine".

• Even if the addon is used as a loot council addon, roll is the essential part of the decision making of the loot council tool. It happens a lot when council cant make decision then the council will need the roll.
• You don't need to have council to make decision for every item. I'm sure council would prefer group loot or personal loot on some item. besides the extra complexity it adds
• I don't think 60 lines are complex. If you want to make it more automatic, why not just do a print("You rolled xxx") in the candidates chat?
• Only know what your own roll is not useful. You need to know everyone's roll. Therefore, print in chat is required.
• Again, it's different feeling to roll for yourself instead of ML rolling for you. No matter if ML's roll result is printed to you.

• The main reason that I added rolls button on session frame is that I don't like redundancy. I don't want to be forced to let raid members response once, then request rolls from raid members, then they need to click again, even if I want to request rolls at the beginning. This does not feel good.
• If no roll button on session frame is not convenient for people who likes to request rolls.
• Is there any bad effect to add rolls button on the session frame? For people don't use it, it seems like I only add a checkbox and this shouldn't matter for them. No people use all feature of the addon, but if some people will use it, then there are reason to let the feature stays.
  • P.S.: Features that I never use
  • Auto Award: Not sure who uses this and why this feature exists. I cant even loot green(uncommon) or blue(rare) items in the raid and I find no reason to auto award purple(epic) items. But any other guild use this? Maybe.
  • Alt click looting: I never use it, but someone use this?

[evil-morfar]

Purpose of the roll feature

1. I totally undestand. But with that argument, your original "/roll" thing makes more sense.
2. You could do that numerous ways. Again, your original idea already did that.
3. That's a matter of perspective. You could even do a print() with the right color to make it indifferent from the server roll. The actual code used for the roll is not different.

Rightclickmenu

Except in my opinion rolls should not be related to reroll/response. I.e. requesting a new roll (1-100) should not prompt a new response request.

I do see some potential in requesting a reroll for a certain response (albeit that would probably be very rare). Likewise, it's a fine way to handle ties (but I prefer your addition that makes ties impossible) - but it doesn't relate to having people seeing the loot frame again. I honestly think that people would have requested it if they thought they needed more "roll" stuff, but all I've ever seen was a request to extend the current "ML rolls for you, without you seeing your roll" thing to be automatic. Tying rolls to responses is bad, as it's literally two different things, and we don't need to show the loot frame to make a /roll.

Rolls button on session

It might be important sometimes, but as a general rule, it's not. Even if you really want to have rolls every time (there's an option for that), that doesn't mean you should choose per session. Everything or nothing (and then a few, (i.e. "request rolls" if you change your mind)) is enough.

The extra width in itself is complexity enough. Not to mention mousing over an empty frame just to see a faded dice button appear (btw, I think that's a nice touch) - I don't imagine people knowing what that means. Eitherway, it's complexity for the majority that probably won't use it.

• Only know what your own roll is not useful. You need to know everyone's roll. Therefore, print in chat is required.
• Again, it's different feeling to roll for yourself instead of ML rolling for you. No matter if ML's roll result is printed to you.

Now we're back to your orignal roll feature.

• The main reason that I added rolls button on session is that I don't like redundancy. I don't want to be forced to let raid members response once, then request rolls from raid members, then they need to click again, even if I want to request rolls at the beginning. This does not feel good.

But yet you're still offering that. And that's also excactly why lootframe and rolls should be different things.

[SafeteeWoW]

But yet you're still offering that. And that's also excactly why lootframe and rolls should be different things.

See Blizzard Group Loot Frame for example. There is reason that roll is binded with NEED/GREED/DISENCHANT/PASS response in the group loot. It is important to differ need roll and greed roll. On the RCLootCouncil perspective, this should be done in the loot frame. It happens often when people change his mind when ML says roll on this item, so it is needed to roll inside the loot frame.

Purpose of the roll feature. I totally undestand. But with that argument, your original "/roll" thing makes more sense.

1. However, "/roll" does not work well in the real raid. People are lazy to type in "/roll". I want RC to be fully automatic. Click a button is much better than typing 5 characters then press type. Meanwhile, "/roll" has a restriction that you can only do one rolling of an item at a time, this is not a good solution. You can consider this feature as a simulation of Blizzard Group Loot, except NEED/GREED/DISENCHANT/PASS is replaced by the setting of the ML
2. It is really not hard to understand how the addon works, if you do it once.

[evil-morfar]

See Blizzard Group Loot Frame for example. There is reason that roll is binded with NEED/GREEE/DISENCHANT/PASS.

Because it's the basis of group loot. You don't want people to press "need", and then once another does the same, ask for rolls. You know before hand that you almost always need the rolls to determine the winner.

You don't do that in a loot council. You only need the roll after the response can't determine the winner. <-- That's the base usecase we're really catering for.

For people using the addon because they can't use ML, the use case is the same (and that's PL btw). <-- Second group we're serving.

Then there's those that's emulating group loot (and maybe a few of the above), but also wants to see people's gear. They either want rolls on everything (most likely) or nothing (not really likely). There's no reason to do anything in between (but it's still supported, in the rightclickmenu). <-- These are the people whose "needs" shouldn't overpower the above groups.

Either way, shape or form, I see no compelling reason to always tie rolls to responses.

[SafeteeWoW]

You don't do that in a loot council. You only need the roll after the response can't determine the winner.

1. There are multiple cases when the response cant determine the winner. Some people roll minor upgrade for main spec. Some roll for offspec. Some roll for transmog.
2. People could change his mind if he knows the item is being rolled, so it's needed to send response again. This happens more often when the guild runs DKP/EPGP system. If the item is being rolled or not is part of the decision making.

The extra width in itself is complexity enough. Not to mention mousing over an empty frame just to see a faded dice button appear (btw, I think that's a nice touch) - I don't imagine people knowing what that means.

There is a tooltip telling what it means when mouseovering the dice.

Eitherway, it's complexity for the majority that probably won't use it.

You shouldn't predict that "majority" won't use it.

Then there's those that's emulating group loot (and maybe a few of the above), but also wants to see people's gear. They either want rolls on everything (most likely) or nothing (not really likely).

No one rolls on everything in master looter. If they do, why running master loot? Roll only applies to some items in master loot

[evil-morfar]

You don't do that in a loot council. You only need the roll after the response can't determine the winner.

Keyword: AFTER. You don't know that beforehand, in which case it's nice to add/ask for rolls, which shouldn't include a new response request. People that changes their mind is not supported in a loot council. You state whether you want the item or not, anything after that is up to the council.

There is a tooltip telling what it means when mouseovering the dice.

Except it's a new concept in RCLootCouncil, that's not usually used in a loot council.

It's not the time to predict that "majority" won't use it.

Maybe not, but I prefer having data to support a statement, and when I don't, I prefer to go with my own experience - and that tells me that this has never been requested, nor does anyone I've talked to wanted to actually use it.

[SafeteeWoW]

Maybe not, but I prefer having data to support a statement, and when I don't, I prefer to go with my own experience - and that tells me that this has never been requested, nor does anyone I've talked to wanted to actually use it.

"A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."

[SafeteeWoW]

People that changes their mind is not supported in a loot council. You state whether you want the item or not, anything after that is up to the council.

The different conditions given by the ML(roll/not roll) causes the decision. If the guild runs DKP/EPGP, item being rolled has no "price", it affects the decision so much. This is similar to why the quantity of duplicate items should be shown in the loot frame. Technically, I can choose to not show the quantity because you are expecting people do the same response, no matter how many items. However, in reality, people don't do that. Their decision is affected by the quantity of the items.

[SafeteeWoW]

I have applied your suggestions:

• All changes to session frame have been reverted.
• request roll only request rolls. No response.
  • Note button is hidden
  • Only dice and pass icon are shown
    • I don't use a button with the text "Roll" and "Pass" because I want these frame looks distinct.

Before dice is clicked After dice is clicked. The frame will be hided after 1s

The current icon size is the maximum size to be correctly shown in zhCN locale

[evil-morfar]

Steve Jobs might have been somewhat inspirational, but in this case I prefer "I cannot give you the formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure--It is: Try to please everybody."

You show the number of items because people likes to know it, and showing it saves them the time to go look at the boss. Guilds running epgp would probably always have rolls enabled thus not needing to decide per item.

[evil-morfar]

I actually really like that! But what about requesting rolls for all sessions before starting it?

[SafeteeWoW]

This requires another design, no one want to click twice for single item

[SafeteeWoW]

Not sure how to do it and I prefer way to do this is still the session frame changes I did a while ago.

• If the setting is not in the session frame, but in the option panel, always requesting rolls from everyone for all items cause spamming problem.
• Another problem is that there is a delay between clicking the button and the frame hiding, in order to show the roll result. If this delay exist during response process, it does not feel good.