Express TC Meeting 02-15-2024

[wesleytodd]

~The Doodle, please vote asap: https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/dypDP6Rb~ Doodle is closed, date and time have been selected

EDIT: We will start the call 30min ahead of schedule to give us more time to get organized and accommodate folks who need a hard cutoff time. New start time will be UTC Thu 15-Feb-2024 11:30AM:

UTC Thu 16-Feb-2024 12:00AM:

Timezone	Date/Time
US / Pacific	04:00 PM 15th
US / Mountain	05:00 PM 15th
US / Central	06:00 PM 15th
US / Eastern	07:00 PM 15th
EU / Western	12:00 AM 16th
EU / Central	01:00 AM 16th

Meeting Link

This issue is to get started finding a time to discuss #160. Ideally we can find a time within the next 2 weeks so that we can get the ball rolling. Since we have not done one of these in a long while I am not sure we know everyone's availability. So to get started can folks interested in attending (remember you dont need to be a member of the TC or project to attend/join the call) post their timezone and general availability throughout the day? When folks post I will pull that up into this issue (as I did with Rand's post from the other thread) and then we can propose some times to pick from.

I cant remember exactly how we did the live stream and recording to youtube. IIRC we used the OpenJS zoom, which I have credentials for, but I did not see the Express YT account. I am guessing @dougwilson has that? Just want to make sure we don't have to spend the beginning of the time sorting out the technical stuff if we can have it ready in advance.

Attendee Availability:

• @wesleytodd: CT (-6 GMT) Best availability during the working day, but can accommodate a night time meeting
• @crandmck: PT (-8 GMT) My schedule is often full during PT business hours, so 5pm-9pm PT is likely to work better for me, but I will try to make any time that is chosen.
• @dougwilson : ET (-5 GMT) Best availability at night, absolutely cannot meet during working hours in any way. Weekends or holidays are a good alternative if nighttime does not work. This is after 5pm ET ideally for work days, though the later the better, as work is PT based.
• @UlisesGascon: I am in GMT+1, but I am use to work with US timezones
• @broofa: PST, flexible schedule
• @sheplu: GMT+1 too but the US timezone works perfectly
• @LinusU: I'm in the GMT+1 time zone but I'm flexible with my scheduling
• @ljharb: I'm in Pacific Time, but I can also do 9PM - midnight as needed
• @rxmarbles: I am MST (Arizona) UTC -7, but could be flexible
• @dwelch234: Mountain Daylight Time (SLC/Denver) but can shuffle to any time with a few days notice.
• @blakeembrey: I'm in Pacific Time but I can be flexible between noon to midnight PT.
• @DominusKelvin: I am in GMT+1(WAT) so whatever works for folks with similar timezones work for me.
• @aravindvnair99: 7 AM to 11 PM IST mostly but might be available till 1 AM as well.

Proposed Agenda:

1. Reform Active TC and open up new TC seats
2. Review and Adopt the Repo Captians proposal
3. Add Foundation accounts to all orgs, repos and npm packages
4. Identify critical work streams and select someone to drive each
5. OpenJS Security Audit

[dougwilson]

The YT account is attached to my personal Gmail account. If someone can tell me how to make it separate I would be happy to do so!

[dougwilson]

I will add, I believe I mentioned to you in email already, next week I am out on vacation. If you need anything let me know asap as I fly out tomorrow! ✈️

[UlisesGascon]

I will love to join the meeting. I can join at any time (including weekends or night time) 👍

[wesleytodd]

I fly out tomorrow!

Yeah we can shoot for when you are back, so either the week of the 12th or 19th. I had only said next two weeks to make sure we didn't sit on it too long 😄

The YT account is attached to my personal Gmail account. If someone can tell me how to make it separate I would be happy to do so!

Ahh, now that you say that I remember it. I am not sure we ever figured out how to do that but maybe someone who setup the Node channel can help? I will ask in the foundation slack to see if anyone knows how to do that.

I will love to join the meeting. I can join at any time (including weekends or night time)

@UlisesGascon can you add your timezone? I will move this up to the message above once you add that.

[UlisesGascon]

@UlisesGascon can you add your timezone? I will move this up to the message above once you add that.

I am in GMT+1, but I am use to work with US timezones 👍

[broofa]

Just noting that I'm interested in attending, but not a TC member. Totally understand if you want to limit attendance. (timezone: PST, flexible schedule)

[wesleytodd]

Totally understand if you want to limit attendance.

I do not believe a closed meeting is necessary. If we did end up having to vote I think we would just have only the TC folks vote, but it sounds like a lot of the proposed stuff will be uncontroversial so we should be good. Happy to have you!

Also, I will make this bold in the OP:

remember you dont need to be a member of the TC or project to attend/join the call

[sheplu]

I would love to join too :)

I am in GMT+1 too but the US timezone works perfectly

[LinusU]

Sorry for the late reply, I'm currently out traveling for work and haven't had time to read the email chain nor the other issue fully yet. I'll be back this Wednesday, and are available after that. I'm in the GMT+1 time zone but I'm flexible with my scheduling.

[ljharb]

I'd love to attend. I'm in Pacific Time, but I can also do 9PM - midnight as needed.

[rxmarbles]

I'd also love to attend. I am MST (Arizona) UTC -7, but could be flexible

[dwelch2344]

I'm in! Mountain Daylight Time (SLC/Denver) but can shuffle to any time with a few days notice.

Also, for narrowing down windows: used Doodle in the past to put a few options down and let folks vote. It's free and works well if you need that kind of thing (even though the name doesn't represent the product well at all 😅 )

[blakeembrey]

I'm in Pacific Time but I can be flexible between noon to midnight PT. Thanks @wesleytodd for organizing!

[DominusKelvin]

I'll definitely love to join and I can be flexible.

[wesleytodd]

Hey folks! Sorry I planned on setting up a doodle based on this info yesterday but my time got taken up pursuing some help for the PR spam issue. I think we have info from enough people to pick a few times to vote on, although the US nighttime constraints are a bit difficult to match up with the GMT+1 times since that is the middle of the night. As much as it is not ideal, we should probably include some early morning times (before working hours) since 5am PT is probably easier to accommodate than 2am CET. Just to see we can also add one weekend time in the middle to see if that makes it easier to get everyone available.

[DominusKelvin]

Hey all, I am in GMT+1(WAT) so whatever works for folks with similar timezones work for me.

[aravindvnair99]

I would love to join in as well. I'm available 7 AM to 11 PM IST mostly but might be available till 1 AM as well.

[wesleytodd]

Ok, I think this selection covers our options pretty well. Please fill in the doodle by monday afternoon so we can pick a time asap.

https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/dypDP6Rb

@dougwilson I added a few mid-day options on Monday the 19th since it is US Presidents day and you said holidays work well. I am not sure if you have that off, but figured it was worth a shot.

[DominusKelvin]

Done ✅

[joeyguerra]

I intend to participate and contribute. I voted on the doodle. In US central time but I think I’m more flexible than others.

[wesleytodd]

Ok folks, looks like the 6-7pm slot on the 15th are the best spot (sorry it doesn't cover everyone, but it is likely the best we can do). I know that is only two days away but can folks give this message a 👍 so I know who is aware and planning on attending?

In the mean time we will get the details sorted out for a zoom link.

[joeyguerra]

Sorry, I'm confused with the "7-6pm" slot. What time will it start? and what timezone?

[wesleytodd]

I edited the above with better details (sorry I was doing that as you posted). Can someone check my TZ math to be sure I did it all correctly?

Yeah I am pretty sure I got the UTC date wrong since it is midnight. It is the 15th for US timezones but 16th for EU folks.

[ljharb]

@wesleytodd "7-6pm" is the confusing part, because that suggests it's 23 hours long.

[wesleytodd]

HAHAH oh yeah ok well that is a typo, unless......all nighter meeting? Anyone? no? 😭

[sheplu]

@wesleytodd would that be this time? https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Express+TC&iso=20240215T00&p1=1440

This is (if I am not mistaked) the slot with 10 people - 3rd one if filtered per date

PS: All nighter and LAN? :D

[wesleytodd]

Yep, updated the top with a link to that page, thanks!

[broofa]

I think top-link URL needs to point to to https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Express+TC&iso=20240216T00&p1=1440 (20240216, not 20240215)

[wesleytodd]

Ok, we got the event added to the OpenJS Calendar. It has a zoom link attached and will be configured to record.

[broofa]

'Not seeing it. What am I missing?

[wesleytodd]

Can you check again? Should be there now.

[broofa]

Working now. 👍

[DominusKelvin]

Added to my Calendar. Great job @wesleytodd

[wesleytodd]

Hey everyone, we are going to start the call a bit early, like 30min or so. @dougwilson has a hard cut off and I think giving ourselves a bit of time at the beginning to get organized would be good. @sheplu has a doc to get us started on going into more details on the bullet points from our original plan which I think would be helpful and since the meeting is ~1am for many folks I thought the earlier we can get things sorted out the better. Feel free to join as you can but we will plan on running the zoom the entire time with a recording so folks can catch up on any parts they missed.

[DominusKelvin]

Hey @wesleytodd seems I can't join with the link sent.

[DominusKelvin]

Do I have the right link @wesleytodd?

![Uploading CleanShot 2024-02-15 at 18.59.41@2x.png…]()

[wesleytodd]

I think that I have to start it in order for anyone to join, so likely you won't be able to join until we start it later today.

EDIT: also if that was to be a link to an image it doens't appear to be working for me. The zoom link is in the OP at the top.

[wesleytodd]

I am worried now maybe folks thought I meant "in 30 min from now". I just meant 30min early from the originally scheduled time. See the OP for details.

[wesleytodd]

Updated link, looks like the original had an issue. https://zoom-lfx.platform.linuxfoundation.org/meeting/91009399008?password=65f12e0c-18df-4c60-8300-7413d7d01a0f

[jonchurch]

Took some minutes:

Attendance: Wes Todd, Doug Wilson, Blake Embrey, Dave Welch, Jean Burellier, Kelvin Omereshone, Rand Mckinney, krzysdz, Robert Kieffer, Ulises Gascón, Jordan Harband Jon Church

TC members present: Wes Todd, Doug Wilson, Rand Mckinney, Blake Embrey TC members absent: Linus Unnebäck

TC Member comments:

• Blake wanted to see more direction for the project, specifically the technical side
• Doug is also interested in direction, he wishes some APIs would change, but doesn’t have the answers for how to do breaking changes.
  • There are lots of challenges with a project of this size, the volume of issues alone is intimidating
  • There has never been a strong Project Management role in the project, it has always been able to coast along
  • v5 – Doug in the past lost the desire to do breaking changes, bc it will invalidate so much existing knowledge and confuse so many people, increase the volume of issues etc.

Express Forward document discussed during the meeting (second iteration of the doc was screen shared by Jean, idk where it lives)

Discussion on the current makeup of the TC. Discussing how to sunset members, how many to have, what the makeup should be. Should there be a Node core contributor on the TC?

Talking about amending the Governance doc to outline: number of members, min-max process for moving folks to inactive Expectations of TC members?

Wes proposed adding Jean Burellier, and Ulises Gascón to the TC It passed with no opposition from any present TC members

Jordan will help Doug add OpenJSF accounts to all the Express Orgs

Planning to engage OpenJSF’s offer of a security audit

[wesleytodd]

Next steps:

1. @wesleytodd to draft amendment to the governance adding min/max TC size, process for removing inactive members, and some expectations of TC members (https://github.com/expressjs/express/pull/5483)
2. @wesleytodd Clean up comments and stuff in Repo Captains proposal then merge (https://github.com/expressjs/express/pull/5484)
3. @sheplu create issues for the major work streams outlined where folks can discuss and volunteer to help
4. @ljharb & @dougwilson to meet to convert npm orgs into the correct form to foundation accounts and TC/captains
5. Setup next meeting time (I can do this, but if anyone else wants to create the issue and gets to it before I do, feel free)

If I missed any please add them on here.

Thanks everyone for a great conversation and looking forward to working wtih all of you on this stuff.

[DominusKelvin]

Hey @dougwilson in line without wanting breaking changes, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a major version give the wiggle room for breaking changes in lieu with SemVer?

[blakeembrey]

doesn't a major version give the wiggle room for breaking changes in lieu with SemVer?

Not Doug, but yes.

On the other hand I took this away from that conversation. Releases may entail new support requests, and more breakages can be a heavier burden for support to handle. Without enough active members to distribute the burden it could lead to burnout.

Edit: Replaced my longer reply. Looking into other package release cycles will probably clarify a good direction to take on breakages and communication (e.g. node.js, react, etc).

[ljharb]

Semver is how you communicate breakage, not a license to break things indiscriminately.

To go well, any breakage needs to be clearly documented, easily debuggable and hard to misuse at runtime, and compellingly motivated. There will likely be a number of those in whatever the TC ends up releasing, but I trust the group to sufficiently blend caution and progress.

[rxmarbles]

Sorry I wasnt able to make it had family conflicts. Hope to be able to attend the next TC meeting

[DominusKelvin]

Semver is how you communicate breakage, not a license to break things indiscriminately.

To go well, any breakage needs to be clearly documented, easily debuggable and hard to misuse at runtime, and compellingly motivated. There will likely be a number of those in whatever the TC ends up releasing, but I trust the group to sufficiently blend caution and progress.

Interesting. I wasn't alluding to breaking things indiscriminately but if there is a judgement call that a breakage is needed, then a major release plus abundance communication before, during, and, after the changes will help. I'm more than willing to help communicate these changes.

A PoC might also help in some instance to gauge the mood and appetite for such changes.

[wesleytodd]

Similar to how Node.js has a set of technical principals, I think this above discussion is something we should immoialize in some sort of "express technical priorities" doc. We should make our stance on breaking changes, stability vs evolution, and other related topics more formal and clearly documented.

I don't think this issue is where we should do that though, so maybe either we use the issues @sheplu has volunteered to open or if someone wants to take initiative and open one to discuss this topic directly that would be great.

[wesleytodd]

The recording is live: https://youtu.be/beWATMWGu5Q

[DominusKelvin]

The recording is live: https://youtu.be/beWATMWGu5Q

Great job Wes