Proposal: Project Beacon - 11.8 PiB Data Set / 60 PiB DataCap

[Beacon-Edu]

We are a Chinese education group in the Fortune Global 500. We would like to propose a collaborative plan to include a total of 60 PiBs into the Filecoin network. This will represent at least 5 full replicas of a 11.8PiB data set, further details of this project are as below.

Project Description We have a 11.8PiB project to prove the value proposition of our group's decentralized data storage. These data sets are the output of our online and offline educational materials from the past 10 years, including courses, documents, and classroom recordings videos. Due to the privacy of students and teachers, our group expects the data for this project to be kept confidential, namely encrypted data.

Our education group has been working with large data sets (PiB) for over 6 years with an interest in pursuing the Filecoin network as a solution to cost savings as well as some of our backup data issues. Starting with the 11.8PiB project makes sense for us, as it represents a small portion of our complete archive.

Data Set The dataset contains courses from more than 100 schools, documentation managed by teams of teachers, and over 3,600 videos of lessons recordings. As previously mentioned, the data itself is not of use to anyone except our group due to the privacy of students and teachers, and the behavior of teachers in the classroom. Therefore, this data will be encrypted for our own consideration.

Website/Social Media Due to the privacy concerns of many parties involved in our educational programs, our website will only be available to PL and the relevant notaries.

Transparency in KYC Our group is one of the top education groups in China and we will be going through KYC process to validate our credentials, which includes face-to-face meetings with notaries, PL and our technical team to present and verify sample data.

We understand that encrypting data complicates Filecoin Plus to verify this project. However, we are committed to transparency as far as we can, such as previously mentioned KYC with notaries, PL and storage providers, as well as disclosing official email and data transfer details along with sample data. However, all parties involved in this project will be required to sign confidentiality commitment letters to protect the security of our data.

We would like to express our gratitude to the community for allowing the project to move forward. In working closely with Protocol Labs and the Filecoin Foundation, we will follow these recommendations as a path forward to make this project a success for us and the network. 1.Submit a Proposal Issue in the Notary Governance repo for the entire project 2.Submit a 60PiB datacap applications

3. At least four notaries have agreed to support these LDNs, while we are in constant contact with additional notaries
4. We have found five SPs so far, and we are constantly looking for more and contact with technically superior SPs in China

Data Storage Plan 5 full replicas, a total of 60 PiB of Datacap

Due to government policy, our encrypted data sets can only be sealed by SP in China. Our current primary SP partners are listed in the table below:

Notaries that Support the Project [person/org/ Notary ID] Updated with additional from comments below Edit for clarification: Notaries that have expressed an interest in performing diligence on this project and client, and are willing to be placed on the notary msig address for approving allocations after performing ongoing diligence.

1. ByteBase, f1yh6q3nmsg7i2sys7f7dexcuajgoweudcqj2chfi (Lead Notary), GCR
2. Fenbushi, f1yqydpmqb5en262jpottko2kd65msajax7fi4rmq, GCR
3. Firefly, f1fg6jkxsr3twfnyhdlatmq36xca6sshptscds7xa, Asia
4. Pluskit, f1tgnlhtcmhwipfm7thsftxhn5k52velyjlazpvka, Asia
5. Metawave, (@MetaWaveInfo ), f1ktlkcxnmzxcdaoqfsunrg3vocfbmgv4n3mrn74a, Oceania
6. Tianji Studio (@liyunzhi-666 ), f1pszcrsciyixyuxxukkvtazcokexbn54amf7gvoq, GCR
7. Kernelogic (@kernelogic ), f1yjhnsoga2ccnepb7t3p3ov5fzom3syhsuinxexa, NA
8. Binghe Web3.0 Lab (@MRJAVAZHAO ), f14gme3f52prtyzk6pblogrdd6b6ivp4swc6qmesi, GCR
9. Speedium, (@cryptowhizzard), f1krmypm4uoxxf3g7okrwtrahlmpcph3y7rbqqgfa, Europe
10. Origin Storage, (@Tom-OriginStorage), f1q6bpjlqia6iemqbrdaxr2uehrhpvoju3qh4lpga, NA
11. PiKNiK, (@Kevin-PiKNiK), f1ypuqpi4xn5q7zi5at3rmdltosozifhqmrt66vhq, NA

[sjcdltx]

screenshot here!

Sorry just updated to say who I am. Simon from DLTx (large SP and investor in ecosystem in the US). I just joined Github as mainly our tech team on here but I wanted to get more into discussions.

If you look in Filecoin Slack - I have been involved since the beginning. GitHub is not a channel I have historically used - @dkkapur and @galen-mcandrew both know me well and can attest to this.

I am not making any judgments, just recognizing both points of view and wanting clarity on which data sets we want to put into FIL+ Thx

[Destore2023]

@sjcdltx Please email to filplus@fil.org and CC partner@bytebase.cn with your official work email as a form of proof that you represent this organization.

This is a very formal discussion.

[sjcdltx]

@sjcdltx Please email to filplus@fil.org and CC partner@bytebase.cn with your official work email as a form of proof that you represent this organization.

This is a very formal discussion.

I just messaged @galen-mcandrew and @dkkapur on slack. They will confirm. It is Saturday evening here so maybe a delay.

[jhookersyd]

Hi @Beacon-Edu, Nice to meet you. I've sent you a message on the Filecoin slack to take you up on your offer to sign the NDA and look at the sample data. Thanks!

[Fenbushi-Filecoin]

Glad to see everyone participate in discussing the proposal and asking for more details about the project. There exists some mismatch of what is promised to be stored vs what is actually stored in the first place. It is also understandable that there could be some miscommunication with clients in the first place. As Deep said, "Being as transparent as possible is key in earning trust with the community." We do see @swatchliu is trying to clarify the detail of the project and make it as transparent as possible. The client and its represented notary are open to answer and can give a reasonable explanation, which is good.

Different notaries have different standards or values on useful data. It is not easy for everyone in the community to agree with that certain types of data are useful. From my point of view, as long as notaries from multiple regions (3+) could support applications, we are good to go.

Also, maybe it is a good idea to have a time limit for this certain type of application to be approved in the future. We have had this post discussed for a month and it might potentially bring a bad experience to the Web2 companies. We need to have a better onboarding experience for these companies. We need big Web2 companies to make Filecoin great.

BTW, @sjcdltx , I think the majority of video courses of EdTech definitely qualify for datacap. For example, if Cousera would like to archive their data on Filecoin， I don’t see any reasons to reject them.

[cryptowhizzard]

@Beacon-Edu @dkkapur @galen-mcandrew let me first start with some clarity. The topic start states that i am behind / supporting this LDN. I have been asked to perform duedilligence and acknowledged I am willing to do that, no more, no less. Can the topic start be corrected on this please? @Kevin-PiKNiK the same goes for you i guess? @kernelogic ?

@Beacon-Edu can you contact me on slack (wijnandschouten is my handle) so we can form a channel and we can setup a governance group to check your data? As notary i will regularly send you cid’s ( samples ) and other questions/requests over the course of this LDN.

@dkkapur @galen-mcandrew my main problem with this is that I live by EU standards. The application started with storing courses for education and that part i can support. I am not supportive of any kind of surveillance data (even classroom recording to check presence) and this dataset contains lots of them. Thats a different thing as a university recording where you see a 60 minute session with only a teacher teaching on a subject. We have seen this type of applications trying to onboard and fail multiple times in the community calls as there is resistance to that and it has no public value to the network (LDN requirement).

My questions about the tools used to pack the dataset and create carfiles is also not answered. I want to know if @Beacon-Edu is capable of the data preparing and distribution.

Edit: i do get a dejavu to other topics who were around on LDN applications where seeking middle ground was difficult without need. Why not store the data we all can agree upon and build thrust first?

One last Q: if the data is encrypted anyway why not store copies for SP’s interested outside China according to LDN distribution guidelines?

[Destore2023]

Thanks, @Fenbushi-Filecoin, we did help the client collect the required number of supporting notaries from four different regions.

In addition, the first round of KYC and data sample verification has been completed. Due to the client's physical condition (currently, 9 months pregnant), and since private data storage does not apply one veto mechanism, it is not a must for more notaries to join this round. @cryptowhizzard @jhookersyd you can contact me for verification.

Project Beacon will be ongoing and 60PiB is only our first round of applications. If any of you are interested, we may need more cooperation from notaries in the next round, thanks for your attention and support.

For the next step, our main effort will be spent coordinating with many SPs, especially data transfer. Meanwhile, we also hope that the DC release of the Project Beacon matches the sealing pace of SPs, to avoid them bearing the cost of a large amount of FIL.

Thanks!

[1475Notary]

Hi Simon, can you really represent DLTx? @sjcdltx

As the SP who don't have enough computing resources, why did you cooperate with @scharfstein to apply for 10PiB DC to the community? It is still not used at all till now.

During the application process, you are suspected of cooperating with the applicant to make false statements and commitment. I suggest that the community vote to remove your allocated Datacap.

https://github.com/filecoin-project/filecoin-plus-large-datasets/issues/274 https://github.com/filecoin-project/filecoin-plus-large-datasets/issues/313

[cryptowhizzard]

@1475Notary thank you for confirming my thoughts on this. Just like last times there is no middleground or solution because on your side no one wants to hear it. Flaming against someone with reputation does not make it better, let me tell you that. Ignoring my questions will not help, there is no due dilligence possible this way outside your region like requested. This makes passing of this application slim.

@swatchliu let me remind you that granting a datacap or passing to RKH is a gift, it is not a right.

[sjcdltx]

Hi Simon, can you really represent DLTx? @sjcdltx

As the SP who don't have enough computing resources, why did you cooperate with @scharfstein to apply for 10PiB DC to the community? It is still not used at all till now.

During the application process, you are suspected of cooperating with the applicant to make false statements and commitment. I suggest that the community vote to remove your allocated Datacap.

filecoin-project/filecoin-plus-large-datasets#274 filecoin-project/filecoin-plus-large-datasets#313

I am very confused by this. Firstly I have so far only commented to ask for confirmation of the types of content and if similar types (education or security videos) would therefore be qualifying for FIL+ for anyone else and if they are treated the same.

Secondly, the project for which we agreed to provide sealing to help the client, we are yet to receive any data from the client to seal. I understand it will be starting soon but the data owner was taking longer to supply the source data. We have compute capacity to seal hundreds of TiB/day and we have a lot of available PIBs as cc sectors ready to convert with snap. I am not sure why there is any false statements or commitments? Please qualify that statement.

[1475Notary]

Hey @cryptowhizzard, i'm not suprised to see you here at all. Looks like someone has been busy socializing and it's good to know that you've made a lot of new friends.

BTW do you still work for Speedium? I see that you may still be short on SP. Would you consider letting me join your DREAM TEAM to share your GIFT of 135 PiB?

Please do let me know If you have any interest :) Looking forward to joining your team and working together ASAP!

@jhookersyd from Holon @sjcdltx from DLTx @Kevin-PiKNiK from PiKNiK

[dkkapur]

Hey folks, just want to request everyone just takes a step back and takes a deep breath here please. Personal attacks and conflation of issues is only going to make working towards a positive/useful outcome harder. Please remember that this is an open community and that everyone has the right to ask questions. Lets keep the conversation productive.

Re the account @sjcdltx - I did get a DM from Simon Campbell on Slack confirming it was him on an account he has communicated with me on before. So unless that Slack account is compromised it, it is likely him. However - it shouldn't matter, it is fair for anyone to ask questions here.

Similarly - @1475Notary if you have concerns about application https://github.com/filecoin-project/filecoin-plus-large-datasets/issues/341, please flag it in the application itself or in a new issue as per the current Dispute / Audit process (https://github.com/filecoin-project/notary-governance/#dispute--audit-framework), and lets take up the conversation on that topic there. Thank you.

Fil+ is a community program. Everyone participating in the program is doing it for the benefit of themselves, their businesses, and/or the the broader Filecoin network/ecosystem. The pie here is large, lets keep moving forward together.

This particular issue represents a request for 60 PiB of DataCap, which if sealed is nearly 50% of all currently sealed deals through DataCap and also will result in nearly a 10% increase in the supply of DataCap. It is reasonable for everyone in the community to engage on such an important discussion. I appreciate everyone taking time in their evenings and over their weekends to participate in this, lets just try to keep the conversation objective and productive. Thank you all!

[dkkapur]

Doing a quick pass on this thread, here's what I see as next steps on this topic:

1. does the client have support of at least 5 notaries across 3 regions? I see several notaries supporting this application in the greater China region, but how about other regions? @fireflyHZ @PluskitOfficial are noted as Asia minus China - can you both confirm? @MetaWaveInfo you show up as Oceania but your application/account seems also to be based in Taiwan (not sure if I am missing something here?)
2. are the notaries that have done checks under NDA willing to support this?
3. there seem to be new notaries that are interesting in going under NDA to see the data. can you confirm that you are interested and able to support this client based on the conversations?
4. let's definitely discuss this issue at the governance call this week

Thank you.

[dkkapur]

Going back to something I mentioned before -

(2) is a hard problem because ultimately this is a p2p anonymous distributed network, and a lot of participants look at the Fil+ process as a way for clients to establish trustworthiness. This is typically achieved through info on both the client and the dataset in question. When that is not available/cannot be shared, the community has looked to better understanding all the players involved -> more transparency on the SP organizations involved. In some private/encrypted use cases, one or none of the client info or the dataset is sometimes shareable publicly. Current precedence in these cases is to trust a subset of notaries under NDA to get access to at least one of these, and couple that with public info on SPs to proceed

What we have to build a case for this client to receive DataCap

1. ideally an open and transparent application with details
2. data available for sampling under NDA
3. a list of SPs

(1) was initially not clearly understood by the community as I understand it, but I think it is now a lot clearer thanks to further questions and clarifications. ✅

(2) up to the notaries to help share their thoughts / support based on this. Looks like some confidence already established here, let's just confirm as a community ✅

(3) we have a list of SPs! what can we do with this? @Beacon-Edu can you share some details on how you selected the SPs you'll be working with? cc @swatchliu in case you have some details as well 🙏🏽. Digging through basic chain data as we do with cases of folks reporting disputes, I put together this table - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1royNBXXgsvL3qkh4hTxj0vTARQWwg_S89QqMdcx-vHg/edit?usp=sharing I see a lot of new SPs with 0 power and no multiaddress / no ability to service retrievals configured. Why is that?

[newwebgroup]

Storing more types of enterprise data is the future of filecoin. I hope that more enterprise data like #489 can be stored on filecoin.

For enterprises, data is the lifeblood of enterprise development, and information is undoubtedly an important knowledge asset of enterprises. How to protect "information assets" has become the top priority of data security.

I think we can spend more energy on the audit of enterprise KYC rather than the content of data. Enterprise KYC can be upgraded to include enterprise business license, enterprise storage authorization, applicant's information, job certificate, etc.

If a well-known education enterprise is willing to store enterprise data on filecoin, why should we say no? Will Amazon refuse? Will Microsoft cloud refuse? Will Alibaba cloud refuse? I don't think they will refuse.

We'd like to be added to the list of notaries willing to support. thank you! @dkkapur @galen-mcandrew

https://aws.amazon.com/compliance/data-privacy-faq/?nc1=h_ls

[kernelogic]

Notary region wise, I support this application as a North America notary and I was given permission to access the data for verification after it started.

[cryptowhizzard]

Hello,

It was good to have this issue discussed in the governance today.

From what i understood it is illegal to be a SP in China at this moment, therefore it is difficult to open up the machines and do dealing and retrieval. The discussion involved a presentation from SP's in China beeing shut down in the past, datacenters beeing shut down, sectors cancelled on chain and people ending up getting arrested.

What also is understood that the data can only be stored in China because of law and regulation.

Anyway, given this I think it would be best to make a small test case with this project and bring it into Fil-E in a few weeks. When all goes well and there is consensus from authority's that data can be stored and kept this way we can move forward to bigger amounts of data for China only projects. This way we will not bring people into problems and we will safeguard the Filecoin network for unrecoverable data loss as this data will hardly be retrievable anyway and only will be stored in (unsafe) China Mainland.

[Destore2023]

Only mining is illegal, but storing data is not. You seem to get the wrong idea. @cryptowhizzard

Storing the real data of fil+ may be the most effective way to really and quickly help Chinese SPs. That is what we are doing.

[cryptowhizzard]

I have been talking to @swatchliu and he offered me access to the data. We shared views on this subject and it was a good and nice talk.

From what i understood the situation is that the data is stored with company's who have an authorization to do so. It alleviates some of my worries.

From commercial perspective we might consider that the client does not want to wait forever and it might be best if we start on signing one single 1 PiB datacap to give @swatchliu and his client a PoC to make this work in the next few weeks.

From there on my suggestion is to move this to Fil-E (Pilot) asap because the data will not be retrievable outside China in the future if we want this to succeed. Evergreen wil be problematic here f.e. because everyone can retrieve and store this data then in a few months.

[dkkapur]

@Beacon-Edu @swatchliu would love to understand who the SPs are still. I see a lot of IDs with no current presence on the network. I understand that they are setting up new miner IDs on chain, but where are their other IDs that can help us build trust in this process + show where the funding is coming from?

[dkkapur]

From commercial perspective we might consider that the client does not want to wait forever and it might be best if we start on signing one single 1 PiB datacap to give @swatchliu and his client a PoC to make this work in the next few weeks.

This makes sense to me if there is support across notaries, which is seemingly the case from comments above from @cryptowhizzard and @kernelogic as non-Asia based notaries as well.

[Destore2023]

Thanks Deep for understanding, I also think it's a good idea to start as soon as possible within a normal range.

Based on what I presented about the current situation of SPs in China yesterday + business considerations, I hope you understand why their further detailed information cannot be publicly disclosed in the community, but I will keep you informed of the parts which can be disclosed via email.

Also, understanding and supporting PL's intention to verify all of the identities of existing SP IDs. But I'm curious if this is a mandatory rule for LDN approval? It seems that there is no previous strict consensus in the community. Even in the V3 notary election session, we can see that some SPs/Notaries who are not willing to disclose their nodes or do not disclose their nodes completely can be successfully elected as notaries. We are wondering if it is required or optional to disclose other nodes of SPs in similar LDN applications? it should be a general and fair rule to the community.

Certainly we have done the verification and communication with the SPs we have selected so far during the prep. We are confident about their capacities and the results of the POC. I found some node's pledge fil is ready in worker wallet.

Meanwhile, in response to your request for disclosure of their assets and sources, we tend to think that this is an inadequate consideration of the SP's privacy. If this must be done, I suggest that all similar projects in the community need to disclose assets and source information and be re-evaluated before being approved. The same goes for projects that have already passed RKH or been trigged, they would also need to be paused and re-evaluated.

https://github.com/filecoin-project/filecoin-plus-large-datasets/issues/53 https://github.com/filecoin-project/filecoin-plus-large-datasets/issues/425 https://github.com/filecoin-project/notary-governance/issues/489 https://github.com/filecoin-project/notary-governance/issues/573 https://github.com/filecoin-project/notary-governance/issues/574

[Destore2023]

We have sent the email to filplus@fil.org upon further request, please confirm. @dkkapur

[Destore2023]

Hello @dkkapur @galen-mcandrew, we have sent the email last week. Is there any update on this?

[dkkapur]

@swatchliu - thanks - just wanted to confirm to the rest of the community as well that some additional info was shared in email.

Following up on the points above.

(1) on the topic of Empty peer IDs.

I hope you understand why their further detailed information cannot be publicly disclosed in the community, but I will keep you informed of the parts which can be disclosed via email.

I understand, this makes sense. However, what is the plan for future retrievals or interaction with these SPs if they cannot expose any endpoints? How do you / the client know you can trust these SPs in the long term to let you retrieve data if needed?

(2) on verifying SP IDs

there is no previous strict consensus in the community. Even in the V3 notary election session, we can see that some SPs/Notaries who are not willing to disclose their nodes or do not disclose their nodes completely can be successfully elected as notaries. We are wondering if it is required or optional to disclose other nodes of SPs in similar LDN applications? it should be a general and fair rule to the community.

Great points.

• I think it is really important that notaries disclose their nodes completely so people can transparently track and understand incentives of notaries. This is openly called out in the notary disclosures. Are you aware of any notaries that are not doing this today? I'd love to follow up.
• re SP IDs in general - I don't think this should be interpreted as "PL needing to verify SP IDs" - but rather, me / a member of the community who is interested in understanding what the plan is for storing this data. I think in this case, it is more warranted than in any other case. This is the first time that DataCap is being requested for a project at this scale. This project has private/encrypted data. This project is working with a list of SP IDs where many of them have no openly verifiable presence on chain and no way to show their intention given the geopolitical constraints, etc.
• Agree that we should work towards standards. This is a learning/growth process for the community, let's use all the opportunities we can to understand what those standards should be. I think this particular project is a great one for how Enterprise use cases should be served on Fil+.

Meanwhile, in response to your request for disclosure of their assets and sources

Please see second bullet above. I don't necessarily think the questions I'm flagging are blockers for this application to proceed. I'm just trying to ensure that we proceed in a safe way and set good precedents for the community moving forward.

[Kevin-PiKNiK]

We’ve received numerous false inquiries and statements that PiKNiK supports this LDN.

We want to reiterate to @Beacon-Edu and the community members reviewing this LDN application that PiKNiK is willing to put in the effort to verify the data set and participating SPs.

[jhookersyd]

Hi All,

I'm still waiting for @Beacon-Edu @swatchliu to send me the NDA and look at the sample data. Can we sort this next week?

Just to play devil's advocate here... If we don't know who owns the miner IDs in a project, how do we know one SP hasn't created all the new miners?

If projects can't prove this point to the community, projects shouldn't get data cap. Data cap is gifted for and by the community. This data point should have 100% community transparency.

Agreeing with the above, SPs that have notaries should disclose all their miners. You already have our list @dkkapur we'll get them on FIL Green in the next month or so. Happy to put them in other places the community chooses.

[Destore2023]

@dkkapur thanks for sharing your thoughts. We have received your email and are already in contact with SPs. We will follow up with a more detailed response via email upon confirmation.

And here we would like to briefly respond to the points you have mentioned.

(1) Regarding whether SP exposes the composition of its owners in the community. Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages? I think that's a good question for everyone here to think.

The truth is that we cannot judge from Western SPs' perspective, but what we can say for sure is that public disclosure is definitely a no-no for Eastern SPs located within China. And there is no direct relation to the availability of retrieval and future client interaction.

Of course we understand the doubts you have and we would like to help you better understand the situation within our capacity. But based on what I presented in the last governance call, we will explain further through email about the composition of the owners of the 12 SPs working with our client. But in fact, the whole situation is also in dynamic change with the time delay. As coordinator this is tough, definitely not easy for us, but we have to face it for the sake of our client.

(2) Currently there are twenty-five out of the fifty-four notaries who were successfully elected to V3 did not publicly disclose their nodes. We will send you the breakdown via email as well.

All in all, we have always believed that filecoin should have a community environment for continuous development. There should be less emphasis on so-called "standards" and more on listening to the "consensus" of the majority of notaries.

Besides, @jhookersyd @Kevin-PiKNiK we were waiting for you to reach out, please contact me, Eric-ByteBase at slack. After signing the NDA, we will schedule a Zoom meeting for the data sample presentation within one week.

Thanks!

[claydrone]

Funny to see that

• Company want to use data storage but don't want to pay
• Community need to support the data they cannot check
• Few notaries sign off and it is good

As a community member, I can only say, yes, I believe you guys

[Beacon-Edu]

Thanks @dkkapur for the timely tip, but this doesn't seem to be exactly the same as my previous understanding. I would like to confirm whether I need to start a detailed review and establish a trust relationship with each SP? And if the SPs that are trusted now become untrusted in the future, will there be any problem of data loss or unretrievability as you mentioned?

[MetaWaveInfo]

@Beacon-Edu Don't worry about this. Data loss and retrieval issues are determined by the mechanism and model of the filecoin network, not by the brand and reputation of individual SPs. Otherwise, it would be no different from the centralized storage network.

In other words, even SP nodes that are currently considered qualified may become unqualified in the future by temporarily going offline for various reasons, so a reliable storage solution needs to have a sufficient number of copies and a pledge mechanism. BTW, the retrieval incentive model is still under establishment, given the very huge bandwidth cost and time cost, the mainstream approach is still recommended for offline delivery.

In short, currently filecoin is not perfect, but please do not lose heart in it.

[dkkapur]

@swatchliu -

(1) Regarding whether SP exposes the composition of its owners in the community. Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages? I think that's a good question for everyone here to think.

I think they might, unless we want to rethink DataCap distribution more substantively. Specifically, ensuring DataCap is distributed across multiple SPs gives us several advantages:

• more SP operations benefit and scale up, the network decentralizes better
• it is a forcing function to distribute risk across multiple SPs to prevent data loss in the future
• retrievals are more efficient in the future (CDN / proximity to data)
• more community members get involved in the Fil+ program

Based on this, if SP entities are just fronts for other SP entities, we just end up creating disproportionate returns for a subset of the community and missing out on a massive opportunity to build a stronger ecosystem and potentially increase odds of data loss in the future.

Additionally, in this scenario where SPs are already restricted by region and have no public presence on chain, it is really hard to prove that they are actually separate operations running in different datacenters owned by different people.

(2) Currently there are twenty-five out of the fifty-four notaries who were successfully elected to V3 did not publicly disclose their nodes. We will send you the breakdown via email as well.

Thank you, really appreciate it 🙏. We should also work towards ensuring that in the future, we create the space for this to be flagged during the notary election process itself,

[Destore2023]

Hi @dkkapur

Regarding the first point, I think we are discussing it from different dimensions although it seems like the same topic. I suppose you are looking to achieve greater decentralization in the physical nodes to ensure scalability and security across the network.

Our opinion is that the owners behind each physical node often have a very complex composition. And that doesn't mean we can't provide sufficient decentralized physical nodes.

I don't think our opinions are contradictory at all. We have explained this in more detail via email please check it out.

Looking forward to hearing from you, thanks!

[dkkapur]

@swatchliu looking forward to it. I don't see the email yet but will keep an eye out today. Thank you for engaging positively on this front and helping move the conversation forward.

[claydrone]

hey, if I say I want to check a piece of data. Can I get something? e.g. retrieval from a node

[Destore2023]

Thanks to @dkkapur for raising the queries about overlap in ownership and operations of individual SP entities and also for the continuous communication with us. Fundamentally, the different understanding was caused by the difference in the composition of SP in the eastern and western ecosystems. We would also like to take this opportunity to introduce to the community how SP participation in Filecoin differs in the East.

• There are many people with capital in China who use filecoin as an investment just like stocks. Their involvement can be divided into two categories: 1) Direct technical involvement. Using their own team to build lotus nodes. 2) Indirect technical participation. Hiring lotus operators to help them build the required nodes. These investors choose the companies that provide louts services based on their assets.

• As far as we know SPs in western ecology are basically independent miners or small organizations. Due to the difference in scale of projects, in many cases SPs in China need to have very high capital requirements. If an individual or organization cannot fully afford it, they will act as lead node owner to recruit more small SPs. This is the reason why each SP has multiple nodes. Also in order to have a clearer distribution of assets and revenue, all SPs participating in this model always choose to start with 0 power.

• In the case of China's policy on cryptocurrencies, no fil borrowers i.e. capital owners is willing to disclose their identity. Most of them are tycoons and going public will definitely put them at immense risk. This is a video that focuses on policies and their impacts. link I hope it can help you guys to better understand the differences between the general cryptocurrency environment in the East and West.

  About Project Beacon

During the project preparation, we saw the same enterprise encrypted data go through the application very fast and smoothly. To be honest, we did not expect such a long waiting period.

We have been actively coordinating with our client to respond to queries from the very beginning. Although we have over ten notaries's supports, we were and still doing our best to answer questions for the notaries who have reached out.

Thanks @jhookersyd for sharing your concerns. We have sent NDA to him but i believe he has some family matters to take care of recently. So the introduction of data samples has not been carried out yet. If you are still interested, please contact me as soon as possible. There is also a notary who clearly disagrees and said he also wants to validate the data. Our door is always open and I don't know why he hasn't contacted us. But it's not something that under our control and it's certainly not necessary for us to satisfy everyone. As is known to all that is not in LDN rules. If every project needs to be agreed upon by everyone and is subject to vote system, Filecoin's growth is bound to be extremely slow.

As we mentioned earlier, revealing the identity will put the investors in a situation of extreme risk. However, we have got their understanding after constant communication and have already sent the list to Deep weeks ago. It's also because of our trust that Filecoin will protect the privacy of our investors as well as every community members. In addition, we will update the peer ID under each LDN application once the project starts.

Lastly, I hope our introduction will help you understand the different market compositions of Filecoin. If there's anything that you don't understand or want to know more about either about our project or the overall market in China, please feel free to contact me through slack or email eric.liu@bytebase.cn.

Thanks!

[newwebgroup]

Starbucks makes localization changes as it enters each country. Hope filecoin will understand the geographical differences as well. Looking forward to seeing the first encrypted data application in China start soon！

[liyunzhi-666]

The policy of cryptocurrency varies from country to country. All of the above is the current situation of filecoin in China, different markets have different ways of participation. I hope governance team can take this chance to know the different ecosystem.

[kernelogic]

@dkkapur I have signed an NDA with @swatchliu regarding verifying the data several weeks ago.

After seeing so much raised questions and Eric has patiently answered all of them, also seeing other private LDNs such as "USC Shoah" and "Victor Chang Cardiac Research" already got approved, I suggest we should fast-track this LDN and get the exposure. It will be a very good case study for future reference as well.

It would be a shame to see this high profile application lose its momentum and all the effort goes to waste.

[Beacon-Edu]

Hi @galen-mcandrew @Deep, it's been 4 months since our last meeting in May. How time flies. My baby was born last week, a very healthy baby girl.

Many thanks to ByteBase for continuously and patiently coordinating with us to respond to the governance team's suggestions and community members' input. Especially thanks to @swatchliu for keeping active interaction with the community members and communicating thoroughly with storage providers during my maternity leave. We are also aware of the efforts that the governance team has been making for our project. We appreciate all your active involvement.

We understand the debate over the definition of educational resources and recording methods because of different cultural backgrounds. But there's a point that I feel needs to be cleared up. As practitioners in the education industry, children are the most important to us. Meanwhile. it's noraml for certified schools and teaching institutions in China back up their courses for improving the performance of their teaching and many other reasons. In addition, a lot of community members have shared many ideas that are not my field of expertise that I may not have understood in a short period of time. I am sorry if this may be seen as non-active participation.

The reason I am here today is to know if there is a clear result yet. No matter if our application complies with filecoin rules or not, our group would like to have a clear and timely response. So we don't take up too much unnecessary resources and time.

Last but not least, thanks again for everyone's interest and support of our project!

[dkkapur]

Hi folks - sharing some updates and proposed next steps. But first, @Beacon-Edu congratulations on your baby girl! Hope all is going smoothly at home.

Thanks to @swatchliu and the ByteBase team for continuing to answer a lot of my questions to gain clarity into the situation as well. Here is a summary of my takeaways:

1. This application is getting a lot more eyeballs on it, primarily due to the following reasons. (1) There was a lack of clarity up front on what was actually being stored. (2) There was, and continues to be, a lack of clarity on who's actually storing the data / how it will work given the geopolitical scenario in the region.
2. Through several months - we've learned that a subset of SP operators claim to have permission to store this data (confirmed on a Governance call by Eric as well), and the full set of SP operators is represented by a large swatch of investors. The process for SP selection was not shared fully in public, but here is what I know - the client + ByteBase worked with a large set of investors to select a subset that were committed to funding SP operations that would store this data. This included an application and review process of 30+ investors of which 12 (? I think? this number may change) were selected and are funding the supply side of the market. I take this to mean collateral, SP setup/ops, etc.
3. There are several notaries that have made themselves available to review the client data (under NDA). We should trust these notaries to make the right call and proceed with confidence in their knowledge and what they are willing to support as fiduciaries of the network, until proven otherwise.
4. Many of the claimed SP IDs still do not have FIL nor Peer IDs published. The FIL will come when the DataCap is granted to facilitate the deals. The Peer IDs will be published after deal making begins. We still do not have a clear understanding of the locations of the SPs.

Here are my recommendations

1. We should have @Beacon-Edu or @swatchliu confirm my statements above
2. We should have the set of notaries agreeing to review this application re-confirm / open up to new notaries.

   ByteBase, f1yh6q3nmsg7i2sys7f7dexcuajgoweudcqj2chfi (Lead Notary), GCR Fenbushi, f1yqydpmqb5en262jpottko2kd65msajax7fi4rmq, GCR Firefly, f1fg6jkxsr3twfnyhdlatmq36xca6sshptscds7xa, Asia Pluskit, f1tgnlhtcmhwipfm7thsftxhn5k52velyjlazpvka, Asia Metawave, (@MetaWaveInfo ), f1ktlkcxnmzxcdaoqfsunrg3vocfbmgv4n3mrn74a, Oceania Tianji Studio (@liyunzhi-666 ), f1pszcrsciyixyuxxukkvtazcokexbn54amf7gvoq, GCR Kernelogic (@kernelogic ), f1yjhnsoga2ccnepb7t3p3ov5fzom3syhsuinxexa, NA Binghe Web3.0 Lab (@MRJAVAZHAO ), f14gme3f52prtyzk6pblogrdd6b6ivp4swc6qmesi, GCR Speedium, (@cryptowhizzard), f1krmypm4uoxxf3g7okrwtrahlmpcph3y7rbqqgfa, Europe Origin Storage, (@Tom-OriginStorage), f1q6bpjlqia6iemqbrdaxr2uehrhpvoju3qh4lpga, NA PiKNiK, (@Kevin-PiKNiK), f1ypuqpi4xn5q7zi5at3rmdltosozifhqmrt66vhq, NA

3. We should proceed with the initial DataCap allocations. This requires at least 2 notaries to confirm they are in support of this. Each first tranche will be 150 TiB. This should be enough for the SPs to also follow through in showing accurate deal making to the community + opening up Peer IDs and ensuring data access for the client in the future. This also means the community can get a window into the SP operation locations and confirm that replicas are being built in different locations / by different SP operations.

Lots of learnings from this one that we can apply to future LDN exception applications! Looking at the Trust & Transparency WG and Notaries to take some of these learnings forward.

[kernelogic]

I confirm my participation in this LDN.

[Tom-OriginStorage]

We are willing to do the due diligence too. @Beacon-Edu Please do reach out to us @llifezou or @derricktan23 so that we can do a final confirmation

[Beacon-Edu]

@dkkapur thanks for your good wishes. I hope you're doing well, too. Your summary is mostly correct, but Bytebase recently informed me that three investors have decided to pull out of our project. I will be closing application #444, #474, and #481. This will still meet our storage needs, so we would like to move on with other applications. I don't know much about peer ID but I will consult with @swatchliu on Monday to confirm and respond.

Hi @Tom-OriginStorage, thanks for the confirmation. Our company has received support from 10 notaries, but we're still willing to perform due diligence for any other notaries interested in our project. But I'm still on maternity leave please reach out to Eric-Bytebase on slack. @Kevin-PiKNiK @cryptowhizzard @jhookersyd I would also appreciate your confirmation. If any of you are still interested in our project, please contact Eric. He'll introduce data samples for you and we hope all your concerns will be solved.

Many thanks!

[liyunzhi-666]

I still support and track this LDN.

[newwebgroup]

I wil support and track this LDN too

[MRJAVAZHAO]

We will follow up on this project.

[PluskitOfficial]

I still support this project and will continue to pay close attention on it.

[Destore2023]

@dkkapur, thanks for the follow up. There are three points that we would like to amend in the summary above.

1. There were 12 lead investors confirmed to participate in the project at the beginning and that was why we suggested our client to make 12 LDN applications. However, we are sorry to announce that three investors have decided to withdraw due to project delays. The total amount of Project Beacon will be changed from 60 PiB to 45 PiB and there may be node changes due to investor share and asset distribution at a later stage but any changes will be further updated under the corresponding LDN.

   We still do not have a clear understanding of the locations of the SPs.

2. Regarding the SP location, we have specified it via email. Please check the Geo Distribution column. Currently confirmed cities are Nanjing, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, etc.
3. The following ten notaries are currently in support of this project. @fireflyHZ , Asia minus GCN @MetaWaveInfo , Oceania @PluskitOfficial, Asia minus GCN @liyunzhi-666 from Tianji Studio, Greater China @kernelogic, North America @Fenbushi-Filecoin, Greater China @UnionLabs2020, Greater China @MRJAVAZHAO from BingHe Web3.0 Lab, Greater China @MatrixStorage, Greater China @newwebgroup, Greater China In addition, I have communicated with @cryptowhizzard @jhookersyd a few weeks ago. But unfortunately due to time issues I have not yet introduced the data sample. Please contact me if there is an opening in your schedule.

We would appreciate all your confirmations. Thanks everyone!

[fireflyHZ]

Reconfirming our support on this project.