Proposal for T&T Committee

[ghost]

Issue Description

Fil+ is a social trust layer on top of the permissionless Filecoin network and requires transparency in the allocation & spending of DC.

In the past few months, we have made progress on how disputes are raised with the launch of the dispute tracker as well as tools for diligence such as:

CID Checker Bot Retrieval Bot [Starboard dashboard} (https://filplus.starboard.ventures/)

Still, how disputes are closed/decided on has been controversial and requires a more systemized way to reach a consensus.

Impact

More decentralized decision-making and transparency in the Fil+ prgram

Proposed Solution(s)

This issue proposes the creation of a T&T Committee which will precede once a week and vote on open issues related to DC abuse, notary-client collusion etc.

The proposed design of this committee is as follows:

5 notaries 5 community members 5 active SPs ( SPs that have made a deal in the <3 months) T&T WG Lead

Proposal on how the committee should be elected -

Each individual who wishes to be part of this committee has to be publicly elected by voting

Porposed Timeline

Discussion of the creation of a T&T committee - Fri July 21st 2023 to Wednesday 26th 2023

We will be opening an issue to kick off the election process in parallel and should this proposal receive positive feedback from the community, it will help us accelerate the formation of the committee

Create the GitHub issue for the community to express interest in being part of the T&T Committee 0 Fri Jul 21 2023

Voting period - Until Tuesday Aug 1st 2023

The decision was announced based on public voting - Monday August 7th 2023

[ghost]

Future iterations should introduce staking the governance team is of the opinion that we need to initiate the process toward decentralized decision-making on open issues from the T&T WG Lead to an independent committee that votes on open issues

[ghost]

We would also love to hear the communities opinion on having each person elected on this committee to do KYC/KYB

[kernelogic]

Who can vote in this case? Anyone with new or old GitHub account? Slack account? Fil on-chain holders? Notaries only? T&T WG members only?

[herrehesse]

Definitely 100% do active KYC/KYB on these entities. We should do all we can to reduce fraud and increase trust. This starts with knowing who you are dealing with.

[ghost]

Good question @kernelogic. At this time, we will require everyone to do KYC/KYB to participate in the voting process.

[ghost]

The proposed committee meets once a week for 30 minutes to discuss open disputes, vote on them, and provide decisions to the community, driven by T&T WG Lead

[MarshLin88]

1、We'd like to know on which dimensions elections are scored. Not whether to do KYC/KYB or not. 2、How can these people be restrained from doing evil? Do we need another new team to audit T&T Committee? 3、Why don't we encourage public votes on open issues related to DC abuse, notary-client collusion etc?

[The-Wayvy]

Social Trust Layer = Permissioned Blockchain

That is the real problem.

Bitcoin, Ethereum, et al were never permissioned.

We don't need to be either.

Expanding the bureaucracy is not a solution.

A public commitment to a schedule for reducing the power multiplier, datacap quota and notary count is.

+ Also, some say Filecoin is permissionless. But the permissioned mechanism in FIL+ makes FIL itself permissioned as well. As a thought experiment imagine the multiplier was 1000x. Then the only way to get any block rewards at all would be to take deals approved by a human bureaucracy. Technically you could still do permisionless deals, but in practice the network would be fully permissioned because no miner can make a profit without block rewards.

[The-Wayvy]

Future iterations should introduce staking the governance team is of the opinion that we need to initiate the process toward decentralized decision-making on open issues from the T&T WG Lead to an independent committee that votes on open issues

Decentralization = 0 human notaries

Anything else is totally out of step with best practices

Bitcoin, Ethereum, Avalanche, Solana, Uniswap, ...............

We are not special.

Arweave is a storage blockchain too, and guess what, it's permissionless.

1

It's understandable that you aren't willing to scrap this overnight given how much time you've already wasted on it.

That's why I'm suggesting incremental cuts.

[kenzz45]

Creating a more centralized T&T Committee to andit Notaries... then some guys can control community through T&T Committee easily...

Have you guys forgotten what made you join the blockchain world initially? It will only make fil+ worse... @jbenet

[flyworker]

The first issue now is

Should we set up a Committee?

A vote about it should be presented first. it is changing the governance model to delegation now.

[flyworker]

It is also funny to see in https://github.com/filecoin-project/notary-governance/issues/941

Based on issue https://github.com/filecoin-project/notary-governance/issues/940, we are kicking off the election issue parallel given the urgency of the matter. While this issue is dependent on the outcome of issue 940, it is in the community's interest to initiate this process

Now a new created github account can represent everyone.

[kernelogic]

There are several categories of disputes right now, I wonder how having a "committee" going to solve these:

1. Notary related: lack of DD, sign too little, sign too much, sign together, play favourites
2. Client related: fake data, inflated data, wrong data, low value data, distribution ratio
3. SP related: unretrievable, fake entity, fake location, VPN usage

Will the 15+1 people vote on all these issues one by one? Is everybody have the same power or the T&T lead has the ultimate veto power? What if some members in the committee thinks some other members are colluding, will we need another committee on top of this committee to solve it?

[dahuajishu]

Filecoin will gradually become a game of power, won't it?

[15012700225]

Dancing with the devil and blending in, that's how I see FIL+.

[c12xf]

This is an unreliable proposal. Looking back at the current issue, you suspect that the notary directly colluded, so you are preparing to establish a committee. After the establishment of the committee, you suspected collusion among the members of the committee. Okay, here's another new proposal to establish the highest level committee to govern it. Can I imagine it this way?

[ghost]

T&T Lead will not have a voting power. The proposed committee will meet once a week for 30 minutes to discuss the open disputes and vote on them and it will be an open meeting.

If people here have a better proposal to resolve open disputes without the T&T Lead being the judge based on discussion, please propose

[ghost]

To address problems of collusion in the committee, we can use incentives. Here's an idea by the T&T WG Lead:

A one-time grant of 250 FIL to each of the 10 members upfront + requirement for staking 300 FIL during their tenure on the committee. The proposed tenure is minimum of 3 months and maximum 6 months.

If committee member stops engaging within 3 months, 250 FIL is slashed and 50 FIL is returned

If committee member completes at least 3 months, they get to keep the 250 FIL

If committee member would like to run again, they are welcome to stake 300 more FIL and earn 250 more FIL for the next 3 months.

[ghost]

@flyworker that's exactly what we are doing. Other issue is dependent on this passing and it has been clearly outlined

[ghost]

@kernelogic , T&T Lead has not power. That's the whole point. Today the T&T Lead is being used as a scapegoat and there is no definitive timeline on when DC will be removed, when a dispute will be resolved. Having a committee distributes the duty of decision to a group

[ghost]

The proposed committee meets once a week for 30 minutes to discuss open disputes, vote on them, and provide decisions to the community, driven by T&T WG Lead

Not sure if it was clear but this will be a public meeting and not behind closed doors.

[The-Wayvy]

@Filplus-govteam

I see 2 problems in your current design.

First

Notaries and SPs cannot be on the committee because they are personally involved in the disputes they will be adjudicating.

Just as conflict of interest disqualifies a citizen from jury duty, being a party to the dispute definitely disqualifies notaries and SPs from committee membership.

Imagine someone charged with embezzling funds being on the jury of their own case.
Or a protestor adjudicating the trial of a police officer charged with assaulting them during the protest.

Every single miner is directly involved in every single dispute. Either the miner got subsidized or they were taxed to fund the subsidy of their competitors. Plaintiffs can't serve on a jury. Neither can defendants.

With our 'uncompensated' notaries, things are even murkier. Nobody works for free.

It is worth debating how a notary committee member would behave in the following situations

1.) they themselves are under investigation 2.) another notary on the board is under investigation 3.) a notary not on the board is under investigation

Likewise with SPs

1.) they got the deal and were subsidized 2.) they didn’t get the deal and were taxed

Second

The person who has authority to slash a committee member’s stake can pressure them to vote a certain way by threatening to get them slashed if they don’t. "when you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

Conclusion

A committee one third of whose members are a direct party to every single dispute they will be adjudicating will not increase trust in the integrity of FIL+. The participation of notaries in the committee is also inappropriate and the slashing mechanism is a centralization vector.

This committee would result in even more drama and politics.

I don't want to keep repeating myself like a robot, but we all know what needs to be done: Make Filecoin Permissionless Again.

[The-Wayvy]

If you really want the good-will and trust of the community : 1.) cut the power multiplier 2.) cut the data cap quota

Blockchains are meant to be permissionless. We all know that. Just declare FIL+ a success and phase it out completely over 6 to 12 months. The longer this drags on the more people will get involved.

[The-Wayvy]

As an alternative, I propose on-chain voting weighted by RBP

[perfectyc]

It is really ridiculous to use one organization to censor another power organization, if the new organization is corrupt, then whether to set up another organization to censor! PL This is playing "matryoshka dolls "? Or a successor to the socialist system?

[litai686]

The simplest way is to cancel the DC. SPs wants to obtain more fils and determines the multiple of the profits by promising the duration of the pledge period. Resist centralized management !!!

[raghavrmadya]

@The-Wayvy , thanks. appreciate your points above and will do further research and thinking on on-chain voting.

[liyunzhi-666]

There are quite a few dissenting voices and emoji's here. maybe we should revisit this proposal and the specific implementation plan.

[NDLABS-Leo]

Oppose the proposal.

[1ane-1]

It‘s a bad proposal. Object！

[alchemypunk]

Oppose the proposal!!!

[Destore2023]

Please take a look at Juan's AMA and see what he thinks about the situation of FIL+ and what we should do as Filecoin community members.

Such a high centralization of power and bureaucracy should not happen in the world of blockchain, this proposal is a complete rejection of the notary voting system after V1.

[newwebgroup]

While the proposal aims to resolve disputes on the Filecoin network, its approach may give rise to new problems. The voting system might be susceptible to manipulation, and the members elected to the committee may lack sufficient capability and experience to handle complex issues. Additionally, this proposal could potentially reduce decision-making efficiency. Therefore, I oppose this proposal.

Concerns:

• Election Fairness: The proposal mentions that members of the committee are to be elected publicly through voting. However, if the voting process is unjust, or susceptible to manipulation, it may create controversy. For example, how will voter identity verification be handled? What measures will be taken to prevent one person from casting multiple votes? Without sufficient mechanisms to prevent manipulation, the voting system could be exploited by a minority to advance their private interests rather than those of the entire community.

• Decision Transparency, Fairness, and Representativeness: Key questions revolve around how decisions will be made by the committee, whether the decision-making process is transparent, and whether all members have an equal opportunity to participate. If the decision-making process is not transparent, it may cause disputes or skepticism. Moreover, the committee composition proposed may not fully represent the entire community's interests. For example, active large-scale Service Providers (SPs) might have different objectives or motivations, leading their decisions not to align with the best interests of all users or smaller SPs.

• Challenges in Rule Determination and Implementation: Establishing a new committee to review and decide on disputes could lead to difficulties in interpreting and executing rules, especially in the absence of explicit regulations or guidelines.

• Committee Members' Capability and Experience: This proposal assumes that the elected committee members can fully understand and address the issues they face, but this may not always be the case, particularly in highly specialized or complex issues. If committee members lack the capability and experience to handle complex issues, they may not effectively resolve disputes.

• Participation Issues: The proposal suggests a weekly meeting, which might require considerable time and energy from participants. If members cannot maintain high participation, it could affect the committee's effective operation.

• Speed of Dispute Resolution: If meetings are held only once a week, dispute resolution might be slow, especially when the number of disputes is high. This could lead to some disputes remaining unresolved for a long time, impacting the harmony of the community.

• Decision Efficiency: Having the committee vote on all decisions could reduce decision efficiency, which might pose a problem for issues that need to be resolved quickly.

[Destore2023]

@Filplus-govteam

I see 2 problems in your current design.

First

Notaries and SPs cannot be on the committee because they are personally involved in the disputes they will be adjudicating.

Just as conflict of interest disqualifies a citizen from jury duty, being a party to the dispute definitely disqualifies notaries and SPs from committee membership.

Imagine someone charged with embezzling funds being on the jury of their own case. Or a protestor adjudicating the trial of a police officer charged with assaulting them during the protest.

Every single miner is directly involved in every single dispute. Either the miner got subsidized or they were taxed to fund the subsidy of their competitors. Plaintiffs can't serve on a jury. Neither can defendants.

With our 'uncompensated' notaries, things are even shadier. Nobody works for free.

It is worth debating how a notary committee member would behave in the following situations

1.) they themselves are under investigation 2.) another notary on the board is under investigation 3.) a notary not on the board is under investigation

Likewise with SPs

1.) they got the deal and were subsidized 2.) they didn’t get the deal and were taxed

Second

The person who has authority to slash a committee member’s stake can pressure them to vote a certain way by threatening to get them slashed if they don’t. "when you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

Conclusion

A committee one third of whose members are a direct party to every single dispute they will be adjudicating will not increase trust in the integrity of FIL+. The participation of notaries in the committee is also inappropriate and the slashing mechanism is a centralization vector.

This committee would result in even more drama and politics.

I don't want to keep repeating myself like a robot, but we all know what needs to be done: Make Filecoin Permissionless Again.

Totally agree with @The-Wayvy This proposal will only make the community more acrimonious instead of calming it down. I permissionless ecosystem should be code-based, especially in the blockchain world.

I do suggest @Filplus-govteam take a look at this Discussions

[ars-bubu]

Fil+is a joke that violates the decentralization protocol. Now it is proposed to centralize management and stop talking nonsense. It is recommended to cancel fil+.

Filecoin is such a great project, such a great track. Don't be managed by a few ignorant people and lead to destruction.

[NewHuoPool]

As commented by some members of the community earlier, such an approach will only lead to the formation of layer upon layer of committees, as the issue of trust crisis will persist with individuals being at the center of decision-making teams.

[ars-bubu]

Filecoin将逐渐成为权力的游戏，不是吗？

Filecoin将逐渐成为权力的游戏，不是吗？

I really agree with that

[herrehesse]

I wholeheartedly agree with the proposal to create a T&T Committee within the Fil+ ecosystem. This initiative addresses the need for a more systematic and transparent approach to resolving disputes and making decisions related to DataCap abuse and notary-client collusion.

The strengths of this proposal are evident:

1. Increased Transparency: The introduction of a T&T Committee ensures that disputes and decisions related to DC allocation and spending will be discussed openly, allowing the community to understand the reasons behind each decision. This transparency builds trust among community members and promotes greater participation and collaboration.

2. Inclusivity: The proposed composition of the committee, consisting of 5 notaries, 5 community members, 5 active Storage Providers, and a T&T WG Lead, ensures that diverse perspectives are represented. This inclusivity helps avoid centralization and encourages a wider range of ideas and viewpoints.

3. Community Involvement: The proposal advocates for a public election process for committee members, giving every individual within the community an opportunity to participate and have a say in the decision-making process. This democratic approach empowers community members and strengthens the sense of ownership over the Fil+ program.

4. Alignment with Fil+ Objectives: The establishment of a T&T Committee aligns perfectly with the Fil+'s goal of creating a social trust layer. It addresses the challenges faced in dispute resolution and decision-making, making the Fil+ program more reliable and robust.

Improvements for the Global Filecoin Community:

By adopting the proposed solution and forming the T&T Committee, the global Filecoin community will experience several improvements:

1. Efficient Dispute Resolution: The T&T Committee will bring clarity and structure to the dispute resolution process. Having a designated committee to address disputes on a regular basis ensures timely resolutions, reducing uncertainty and potential conflicts.

2. Enhanced Governance: The community-elected committee members will act as representatives of the community's interests. This strengthens the governance model by incorporating the input and perspectives of the diverse Filecoin stakeholders.

3. Increased Trust: The transparent decision-making process of the T&T Committee fosters trust within the community. Trust is essential for collaboration and long-term engagement among participants in the Fil+ program.

4. Clear Guidelines: As the T&T Committee evolves and gains experience, it can establish clear guidelines and best practices for handling disputes and making decisions related to DC allocation. This consistency enhances the stability and predictability of the Fil+ ecosystem.

In conclusion, the proposal to create a T&T Committee for Fil+ is a commendable step toward strengthening the global Filecoin community. By promoting transparency, inclusivity, and decentralized decision-making, this initiative addresses crucial challenges and paves the way for a more resilient and prosperous Fil+ ecosystem. I fully support this proposal and believe it will lead to significant improvements for all participants in the Filecoin network.

[herrehesse]

Upon closer examination of the individuals and entities driving the Filecoin ecosystem, it is evident that some members are dedicating significant time and resources to its enhancement. Based on my observations, I would like to offer the following recommendations:

5 Notaries:

• Patrick-Li: Among the few notaries diligently conducting thorough due diligence on each application before providing their signature. Well respected. @liyunzhi-666
• Jamerduhgamer: A trusted and long-standing member of the community, actively onboard new clients with real data. @jamerduhgamer
• Twinquasar: One of the earliest and most respected notaries in the community, renowned for developing numerous applications for the ecosystem. @s0nik42
• Joss Hua: A core member of the Asian community and a highly esteemed participant of the Venus team, whose inclusion in the group is highly recommended. @Joss-Hua
• Cryptowhizzard: An exceptionally passionate and proactive notary, actively involved in improving the ecosystem since Filecoin's inception, boasting the most extensive experience among them. @cryptowhizzard

5 Community Members:

The majority of community members I've encountered are either Notaries or part of storage provider operations.

5 Active Storage Providers (SPs):

• HOLON: One of the largest and most respected miners from Australia.
• PIKNIK: An exceptionally active SP based in the USA and the founder of ESPA, earning trust and recognition as a reliable entity.
• SEAL: Known for fostering the best collaborations in global data storage, with a deep understanding of valuable data.
• GREATER HEAT: Highly respected among large enterprise miners in Asia, serving as the host for the prestigious DSPA event and a trusted community player.
• DCENT: One of the most well known European miners since Filecoin's inception, possessing a wealth of experience as a data preparer and demonstrating excellent networking and distribution skills. Furthermore, they are vocal and actively engaged members of the community.

These individuals and entities are vital contributors to the growth and advancement of the Filecoin ecosystem. Recognizing their efforts and encouraging collaboration among them will undoubtedly lead to further progress and success.

(DSS/DLTX are also on this list)

[Tom-OriginStorage]

As stated previously, there might be a conflict of interest if this proposal is approved : notaries and service providers should not be on the committee because they are involved in the dispute. This could lead / threaten members to vote a certain way and influence the decision-making process.

[sonicking1777]

We need decentralization to deal the problem not corrupt bureaucracy and minority centralization！！！Oppose！！！

[sonicking1777]

Upon closer examination of the individuals and entities driving the Filecoin ecosystem, it is evident that some members are dedicating significant time and resources to its enhancement. Based on my observations, I would like to offer the following recommendations:

5 Notaries:

• Patrick-Li: Among the few notaries diligently conducting thorough due diligence on each application before providing their signature. Well respected. @liyunzhi-666
• Jamerduhgamer: A trusted and long-standing member of the community, actively onboard new clients with real data. @jamerduhgamer
• Twinquasar: One of the earliest and most respected notaries in the community, renowned for developing numerous applications for the ecosystem. @s0nik42
• Joss Hua: A core member of the Asian community and a highly esteemed participant of the Venus team, whose inclusion in the group is highly recommended. @Joss-Hua
• Cryptowhizzard: An exceptionally passionate and proactive notary, actively involved in improving the ecosystem since Filecoin's inception, boasting the most extensive experience among them. @cryptowhizzard

5 Community Members:

The majority of community members I've encountered are either Notaries or part of storage provider operations.

5 Active Storage Providers (SPs):

• HOLON: One of the largest and most respected miners from Australia.
• PIKNIK: An exceptionally active SP based in the USA and the founder of ESPA, earning trust and recognition as a reliable entity.
• SEAL: Known for fostering the best collaborations in global data storage, with a deep understanding of valuable data.
• GREATER HEAT: Highly respected among large enterprise miners in Asia, serving as the host for the prestigious DSPA event and a trusted community player.
• DCENT: One of the most well known European miners since Filecoin's inception, possessing a wealth of experience as a data preparer and demonstrating excellent networking and distribution skills. Furthermore, they are vocal and actively engaged members of the community.

These individuals and entities are vital contributors to the growth and advancement of the Filecoin ecosystem. Recognizing their efforts and encouraging collaboration among them will undoubtedly lead to further progress and success.

(DSS/DLTX are also on this list)

I think your obversations are meaningless, because it is from your interest point.Any suggestion from you are Invalid.

[herrehesse]

@Tom-OriginStorage Currently, it appears that nearly 100% of the notaries are involved in abusive practices. To address this issue, the committee should redirect its focus towards introducing accountability, a crucial aspect that seems to be lacking among individual notaries. Instances of threats have already occurred, and there are reports of notaries attempting to sell their signatures. We are already at the absolute worst.

A viable way to progress would be to establish a committee that represents the voices of all community members. As mentioned earlier, selecting well-known and public entities, as advised above, would be beneficial. These entities are more likely to be open to public scrutiny and are motivated to maintain a positive reputation. Fake accounts get us to where we are currently.

@sonicking1777 The concept of " full decentralization & trust" has faced significant challenges over the past six months, resulting in the onboarding of nearly 1 EiB (exbibyte) of fake data on the chain. To address these issues effectively, we require the implementation of a committee, similar to the one proposed, which can oversee and regulate the ecosystem before any further progress can be made.

[herrehesse]

@sonicking1777 I think your obversations are meaningless

My friend, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and beliefs. It's important to clarify that the view I'm expressing is solely my own perspective. I welcome and value the opinions of others on this matter and would be interested to hear what they have to say about it.

[hcgun]

Hello @herrehesse Can everyone nominate the list ?

[herrehesse]

Dear friend, you are welcome to nominate anyone, as long as you are able to explain your rationale.

[SmallMiner]

There is a huge unknown conspiracy behind this proposal, which I will reveal to you when i am free.

[ars-bubu]

There is a huge unknown conspiracy behind this proposal, which I will reveal to you when i am free.

@SmallMiner I am looking forward to your next speech

[ars-bubu]

Upon closer examination of the individuals and entities driving the Filecoin ecosystem, it is evident that some members are dedicating significant time and resources to its enhancement. Based on my observations, I would like to offer the following recommendations:

5 Notaries:

• Patrick-Li: Among the few notaries diligently conducting thorough due diligence on each application before providing their signature. Well respected. @liyunzhi-666
• Jamerduhgamer: A trusted and long-standing member of the community, actively onboard new clients with real data. @jamerduhgamer
• Twinquasar: One of the earliest and most respected notaries in the community, renowned for developing numerous applications for the ecosystem. @s0nik42
• Joss Hua: A core member of the Asian community and a highly esteemed participant of the Venus team, whose inclusion in the group is highly recommended. @Joss-Hua
• Cryptowhizzard: An exceptionally passionate and proactive notary, actively involved in improving the ecosystem since Filecoin's inception, boasting the most extensive experience among them. @cryptowhizzard

5 Community Members:

The majority of community members I've encountered are either Notaries or part of storage provider operations.

5 Active Storage Providers (SPs):

• HOLON: One of the largest and most respected miners from Australia.
• PIKNIK: An exceptionally active SP based in the USA and the founder of ESPA, earning trust and recognition as a reliable entity.
• SEAL: Known for fostering the best collaborations in global data storage, with a deep understanding of valuable data.
• GREATER HEAT: Highly respected among large enterprise miners in Asia, serving as the host for the prestigious DSPA event and a trusted community player.
• DCENT: One of the most well known European miners since Filecoin's inception, possessing a wealth of experience as a data preparer and demonstrating excellent networking and distribution skills. Furthermore, they are vocal and actively engaged members of the community.

These individuals and entities are vital contributors to the growth and advancement of the Filecoin ecosystem. Recognizing their efforts and encouraging collaboration among them will undoubtedly lead to further progress and success.

(DSS/DLTX are also on this list)

@herrehesse How can you be like a frog in a well !

[joshua-ne]

I think this proposal is a pretty good starting point for better governance! But a lot more need to be optimized, for example:

1. Why only 5 * 3 + 1 people in the commitee? And sometimes there are overlaps among different roles, and why not more?
2. How often shall the members of the committee be updated? How the act of the committee be corrected when needed?
3. How does the voting process work? Vote in a meeting? On-chain signature? Who are going to vote and how the result will be checked and guaranteed to be fraud-proof?

Meanwhile, I would suggest two possible alternatives (though both of them are very preliminary for now)

1. Maybe try something like the governance system in GovernorAlpha from Compoud community and use contract to propose/execute
2. Set up a jury-like mechanism. Instead of only 5 of each, for every round of decision (of removal of notary or Datacap), we can randomly choose like 100 clients/SP's/notaries each to form a jury and those chosen submit their opinion by signing with their private key on FVM.

Hope this might help!