Professional-looking Skin

[GutHib]

Hi,

I think it's fantastic what you've guys have achieved so far with the RedMatrix. There's only one issue - to be able to make full use of the script, I would have to convince my friends to join and they are geeky below average.

To be honest, RedMatrix still doesn't LOOK all that appealing at this point, which is what I see as a huge stumbling block. So I wanted to ask if there's a professional/flashy/cool design already in the works, or if there's at least a cookie jar that is designated for this exact purpose? I am very sure that getting the design right would go a VERY long way, even if the odd feature might still be missing at this point.

Thanks!

[sasiflo]

Even the longest way begins with a single step.

Have any clue what a "professional-looking Skin" could look like? Perhaps you made some mockups, skribble or photoshop Gimp images or even a extual description a skilled web developer could use to get this done?

I would love a somewhat cleaner and more appealing design would arise. But have little hope it will come from nothing. What you can do is offer a reward at https://zotid.net/channel/bounties&JS=1

[GutHib]

I am afraid I run my own stack of volunteer projects and cannot take on another one - so in this case I can really only give my opinion. If that means it won't happen, I perfectly understand (my apologies).

But to answer your question: As far as professional layout is concerned, you really don't have to look any further than this very page. Consistent spacing between elements on the page, plus a number of boxes and lines (either visible or invisible) that are consistently used for alignment can make a huge difference.

Compare this to, let's say, the Redmatrix login page where all the elements are all over the place. A different type of example would be the channel locator with it's wrap-around icons, inconsistent spacing and lack of overall structure. Generally, all pages have similar issues. Again, just honestly expressing what I am seeing and sharing my view that making Redmatrix pleasant for the eyes (or even giving it some truly ground-breaking and distinct layout) would go a very long way in making it more popular.

[GutHib]

PS: You can even look at the spacing in the top bar. Notice the subtle differences?

[friendica]

This has been a common complaint in the project for four years now. Until somebody with the requisite visual design skills steps up to fix it, it will remain an issue. Our attempts at specifically funding a visual design position were a dismal failure. Our calls for volunteers to do this have also fallen mostly on deaf ears. At the end of the day it is an open source project, so we rely on volunteers - especially since crowdsourcing a designer resulted in very little interest. We do have volunteers making steady improvements - if you watch the evolution of the design and how it has progressed even in the last two months. While their designs may be lacking in your eyes, they're certainly better at it than I am and we welcome their participation.

If you've just come here to throw rocks but not do anything about it, my apologies but it's just another person throwing rocks and not doing anything about it. Especially if you have the requisite skills, which you seem to imply. We'd love to see a professional design. Where is that going to come from if all the competent visual designers just stand around throwing rocks?

[GutHib]

Well I am afraid I don't have the skills - I am just a user. Also, I didn't mean to throw any rocks, sorry if it came across that way. Just meant to provide constructive feedback, which I guess isn't helping if the issue is already known.

In my own projects I simply ended up paying crucial things from my own pocket, because I figured that all the work I put in is somehow wasted if I cannot achieve the actual goals any other way. Needless to say it absolutely sucks having to pay for helping others, but I couldn't find any other solutions myself.

[sasiflo]

Then you should know why sometimes a little bit too harsh reaction is triggered when someone just express his opinion "It's too ugly, change it". People taking the Red Matrix as an impotant and serious project are not as dump to NOT know that it is somewhat ugly ;-) But you added some thougth now I agree with. Thank you for that.

[friendica]

My apologies - this is an old issue and we've been beat up about it for years without much constructive input. Here you offer some constructive input (and this is generally welcome) but it doesn't give us a lot to work with. I've looked at the pages you mention, I've looked at the top bar. I'm not offended by them. I have no idea what needs fixing. "Inconsistent spacing" does not give me any idea of what to fix. Most everything I see is spaced exactly the same. This is why I suggested that perhaps you may know something about design that I do not.

I can't do anything "out of pocket". My pockets are empty. I make less professionally than a burger flipper at McDonalds and have a family to support and a farm that requires constant input so it will produce. I'm borrowing a car to get to work. So yeah, it would be great to do these things and pay somebody to fix the UI. We held a crowdsource for this specific task and managed to collect a couple k$ in over a year. I can't find anybody willing to fix one page for that amount. I used some of it for hosting costs. The rest is still in the bank waiting for a designer who wants to trade his/her skills and a bit of time for it. Meanwhile projects to send people to Alpha Centauri in Pink Cadillacs raised hundreds of thousands of dollars. (I'm being facetious, but this isn't far from the truth).

So that's where it sits. I'll leave the issue open.

[sasiflo]

@friendica Maybe you could make a post to the bounties channel about this funding for a web designer?

[friendica]

@sasiflo Bounties need a clear statement of work to qualify for the bounty. If the statement of work is "make it less ugly" anybody can change one icon and claim that they have met the bounty requirements. It is this clear statement of work which has always been the stumbling block for this issue.

[GutHib]

Thanks for the insights.

Concerning things like "inconsistent spacing", if you look at this page, you will notice that there are mostly really only 2-3 different sizes of gaps used on this page. E.g. the spacing between the comment boxes, the spacing between avatars and comment boxes, the padding within the boxes - all the same, 4mm. There are different gaps on this page for different elements, but they, again, repeat themselves. Since I am no designer and haven't read any smart books on the topic either, I probably shouldn't hold a lecture on web design here. :) But even if you don't know what the rules are, mostly everyone notices subconsciously when they are violated. Still, I think you need a professional to get things right - simply because the site you are actually competing with uses professional designers as well, so anything that falls short of that will give you a huge disadvantage.

Next couple of weeks I will be looking for a designer to do a tiny job for me (really just 2-3 pages), so if you like, I can pitch this project as well. Not sure yet how I will approach this, but most likely I will look for some decently designed non-profit pages, try to find out who did the layout and go from there. Knowing the exact budget would probably help. Also, whether or not you are open to any design that is functional and good-looking, or if you have any other particular criteria. Finally, if there is any more information on how skins are implemented for Redmatrix?

So this is my offer: My opinion, some research, and a couple of emails. ;) Worst case: No success, but no harm done, either.

[friendica]

We've always approached this like WordPress. The entire application is theme-able. You can even change every individual page to look different. You can change every single widget to look different. So you can't get much more open when it comes to design.

For most people I know they download WordPress and the first thing they do is try to find a different theme to look the way they want. Themes and layouts are deeply personal - we DON'T WANT to offer one solution for everybody. You can visit your display settings page with "expert" mode turned on and tweak our standard theme in countless ways. Presently there's an APW theme and a few others (besides the basic theme) - all of which provide this same kind of configurability.

The WordPress model works - and we've taken it even further. A theme designer can change the way the entire application works - and create new applications out of it. People make money selling WordPress themes - and nobody complains that the stock theme is "ugly" - which it is.

We've got some theme creation guidelines in the documentation. Basically you can create a new theme, or you can take an existing theme and "derive" a new theme from it (for minor changes). Or you can write an entire application without changing base code (let's call that an "extreme theme"). You can take any or all pages of the present app and change the way any or all of them look - without touching base code. You can add new pages, you can over-ride existing pages and do something else with them.

I really don;t know what else we could do to get rid of this "ugly" reputation. It's not like Diaspora where there's one look across the entire network and everybody has to live with it. The only thing WordPress has that we don't have is designers who want to create cool designs and make money off of them.

[GutHib]

Well, the basic difference to Wordpress is that the standard theme is actually pretty enough - and alternatives do exist. Those are essentially two more options than Red Matrix currently has.

Somehow this reminds me of a discussion I sometimes have as a hobby cook: It's fantastic to put extra spices on the table for those who want to customize their meals, but really the food must already be tasty when it comes out of the kitchen, because most people are just consumers and simply don't have faith in anything that doesn't appeal to them immediately.

Theme-ability sounds great. Once again, if you want me to drum something up, I'd need to know what you can offer. Needless to say I am not in a position to make any commitments, but I would have to tell people what they might get if they end up working with you. Have you ever thought of a link somewhere saying "design by xy"? Could be a great compromise to get away without paying an arm and a leg, and since the line would only appear with the respective skin, Red Matrix would still remain ad-free.

[ghost]

This issue was moved to redmatrix/redmatrix#117