[Death Knight] Dk's gargoyle does not have gcd for casts.

[Apakalipsis1992]

https://dropmefiles.com/i01mb

Description: The Death Knight's Gargoyle does not work correctly. Everyone who casts in this game has a GCD of at least 1 second. And even if the cast is less than 1 second, this threshold does not allow you to cast faster. The gargoyle makes the same casts as any caster in the game, but if you look at the screenshot above, you can see that the gargoyle made 74 casts for 1 summon. That is, we can conclude that she has no GCD for casting at all, which is a bug that many DK players abuse.

How to reproduce: Just use the pre-raid items on dual wield UH dk and repeat the rotation they do in raids.

How it should work: Gargoyle should have a GCD of 1 second per cast.

Database links: https://wotlk.evowow.com/?spell=49206

[Tednugg]

This is how gargoyle always worked, it never had GCD. You can see here : https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Vfc3F2T6nwY9dzLb#fight=44&type=damage-done&source=51, the gargoyle had 74 casts .

[Manpower99]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative.

likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second, doesn't necessarily determine if it has a 1sec gcd or not though.

[Apakalipsis1992]

This is how gargoyle always worked, it never had GCD. You can see here : https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Vfc3F2T6nwY9dzLb#fight=44&type=damage-done&source=51, the gargoyle had 74 casts .

It's wow classic (garbage dump). On the original wow 3.3.5, this did not work.

[Apakalipsis1992]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative.

likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

[Tednugg]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative. likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

Nevermind the video, check the threat that he provided, according to this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste?p=7382437&viewfull=1#post7382437, gargoyle indeed did not have a GCD.

[Manpower99]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative. likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

Yes, which is why i would say that this is inconclusive, primarily because classic is not og wrath and og wrath has many inconsistencies relating to gargoyle. the only reason i would argue for a 1sec GCD is to keep unholy death knight in a decent dps spot but not to the amount it was in phase1/phase2 of classic wrath where they had to change it to dynamic haste for balance issue. and that change wouldn't be healthy for the server so i honestly do hope they opt for a 1sec GCD.

[Apakalipsis1992]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative. likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

Nevermind the video, check the threat that he provided, according to this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste?p=7382437&viewfull=1#post7382437, gargoyle indeed did not have a GCD.

How hard it is to explain to stupid people. What you see in the video is the casting speed. It can be less than 1 second, like any caster, if you collect a lot of haste. But, even if your cast is less than a second, you will still have a GCD of 1 second, which will not allow you to cast faster. GCD and casting speed are two different things, god, why do people who don’t understand this still leave comments xD

[Apakalipsis1992]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative. likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

Yes, which is why i would say that this is inconclusive, primarily because classic is not og wrath and og wrath has many inconsistencies relating to gargoyle. the only reason i would argue for a 1sec GCD is to keep unholy death knight in a decent dps spot but not to the amount it was in phase1/phase2 of classic wrath where they had to change it to dynamic haste for balance issue. and that change wouldn't be healthy for the server so i honestly do hope they opt for a 1sec GCD.

Yes, thank you for your understanding. I also don’t want this spec to monopolize the first 10 lines of DPS in each raid, most likely because of a bug.

[Tednugg]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative. likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

Nevermind the video, check the threat that he provided, according to this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste?p=7382437&viewfull=1#post7382437, gargoyle indeed did not have a GCD.

How hard it is to explain to stupid people. What you see in the video is the casting speed. It can be less than 1 second, like any caster, if you collect a lot of haste. But, even if your cast is less than a second, you will still have a GCD of 1 second, which will not allow you to cast faster. GCD and casting speed are two different things, god, why do people who don’t understand this still leave comments xD

What are you even saying man, you are calling me stupid, and the proceed to say the most random thing, that's doesn't even address what I said, where did I say anything about cast speed ? If you open the threat that I provided, you can see there's log provided, which indicate lower time between the gargoyle casts than the GCD?

[Apakalipsis1992]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative. likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

Nevermind the video, check the threat that he provided, according to this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste?p=7382437&viewfull=1#post7382437, gargoyle indeed did not have a GCD.

How hard it is to explain to stupid people. What you see in the video is the casting speed. It can be less than 1 second, like any caster, if you collect a lot of haste. But, even if your cast is less than a second, you will still have a GCD of 1 second, which will not allow you to cast faster. GCD and casting speed are two different things, god, why do people who don’t understand this still leave comments xD

What are you even saying man, you are calling me stupid, and the proceed to say the most random thing, that's doesn't even address what I said, where did I say anything about cast speed ? If you open the threat that I provided, you can see there's log provided, which indicate lower time between the gargoyle casts than the GCD?

It says that the time between castes is 1.1-1.2, this proves that the gargoyle did not cast faster than once per second.

[Tednugg]

And what both of you are reefing to is a custom change, that was not intended by blizzard, this is how gargoyle always worked, the only reason wasn't "broken" in original wrath is because people were bad in the game and did not understand how haste snapshotting worked. Wotlk classic could be used as a good example of how game mechanics should function. (not considering the custom changes which are mostly balance related). the game was released a year ago and it had a beta phase in which many bugs were cleared, so calling it a garbage dump is just stupid.

[Tednugg]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste the only viable thread talking about it that is reliable atm it is hard to tell since og wrath gargoyle has mixed results and wotlk classic is uncapped and no gcd. perhaps the haste benefit is too high on whitemane? from blight club discord findings on wotlk classic haste rating is additive. Haste sources (total haste rating, bloodlust, unholy presence) are multiplicative. likely case is that original wotlk didnt have a gcd as there are videos showcasing it casting under 0.9seconds and this is the only video i found that is doing any form of testing 13 years ago : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA5I7jCqyfg you can see it casting under 1second.

Yes, what is in this video is just a casting speed of less than 1 second. It could be. But a GCD of 1 second simply shouldn’t allow you to make a new cast before 1 second has passed since the previous cast. And the caste itself can be at least 0.5, or even less. But there should be a GKD.

Nevermind the video, check the threat that he provided, according to this https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697868-Gargoyal-and-Haste?p=7382437&viewfull=1#post7382437, gargoyle indeed did not have a GCD.

How hard it is to explain to stupid people. What you see in the video is the casting speed. It can be less than 1 second, like any caster, if you collect a lot of haste. But, even if your cast is less than a second, you will still have a GCD of 1 second, which will not allow you to cast faster. GCD and casting speed are two different things, god, why do people who don’t understand this still leave comments xD

What are you even saying man, you are calling me stupid, and the proceed to say the most random thing, that's doesn't even address what I said, where did I say anything about cast speed ? If you open the threat that I provided, you can see there's log provided, which indicate lower time between the gargoyle casts than the GCD?

It says that the time between castes is 1.1-1.2, this proves that the gargoyle did not cast faster than once per second.

Just because he didn't have any more haste, but the delay is coming not enforced by gcd.

[Apakalipsis1992]

And what both of you are reefing to is a custom change, that was not intended by blizzard, this is how gargoyle always worked, the only reason wasn't "broken" in original wrath is because people were bad in the game and did not understand how haste snapshotting worked. Wotlk classic could be used as a good example of how game mechanics should function. (not considering the custom changes which are mostly balance related). the game was released a year ago and it had a beta phase in which many bugs were cleared, so calling it a garbage dump is just stupid.

In my opinion, the only thing wow classic can be used for is as a trash can. A spec in which the idle time in rotation is 2 seconds, and only a couple of buttons are pressed, is ahead of all other classes. Yes, indeed, this is an indicator of good game mechanics, you can’t even argue xD

[Tednugg]

And what both of you are reefing to is a custom change, that was not intended by blizzard, this is how gargoyle always worked, the only reason wasn't "broken" in original wrath is because people were bad in the game and did not understand how haste snapshotting worked. Wotlk classic could be used as a good example of how game mechanics should function. (not considering the custom changes which are mostly balance related). the game was released a year ago and it had a beta phase in which many bugs were cleared, so calling it a garbage dump is just stupid.

In my opinion, the only thing wow classic can be used for is as a trash can. A spec in which the idle time in rotation is 2 seconds, and only a couple of buttons are pressed, is ahead of all other classes. Yes, indeed, this is an indicator of good game mechanics, you can’t even argue xD

Yet this is how the game was intended to be played by blizzard. You don't like it ? okay, but don't try to enforce your likings on to the game. You can't request a custom change just because you don't like the original game. Also it seems to me like you're not even trying to get to the truth, about how Gargoyle is supposed to work, but rather want to prove your point, which is not very productive in fixing bugs.

[Apakalipsis1992]

And what both of you are reefing to is a custom change, that was not intended by blizzard, this is how gargoyle always worked, the only reason wasn't "broken" in original wrath is because people were bad in the game and did not understand how haste snapshotting worked. Wotlk classic could be used as a good example of how game mechanics should function. (not considering the custom changes which are mostly balance related). the game was released a year ago and it had a beta phase in which many bugs were cleared, so calling it a garbage dump is just stupid.

In my opinion, the only thing wow classic can be used for is as a trash can. A spec in which the idle time in rotation is 2 seconds, and only a couple of buttons are pressed, is ahead of all other classes. Yes, indeed, this is an indicator of good game mechanics, you can’t even argue xD

Yet this is how the game was intended to be played by blizzard. You don't like it ? okay, but don't try to enforce your likings on to the game. You can't request a custom change just because you don't like the original game. Also it seems to me like you're not even trying to get to the truth, about how Gargoyle is supposed to work, but rather want to prove your point, which is not very productive in fixing bugs.

I personally don't see that this is how the game was intended. Where is the evidence that this worked in 2009? Have you provided such evidence? You provided only the log from the current wow classic. This doesn't prove anything.

[Manpower99]

And what both of you are reefing to is a custom change, that was not intended by blizzard, this is how gargoyle always worked, the only reason wasn't "broken" in original wrath is because people were bad in the game and did not understand how haste snapshotting worked. Wotlk classic could be used as a good example of how game mechanics should function. (not considering the custom changes which are mostly balance related). the game was released a year ago and it had a beta phase in which many bugs were cleared, so calling it a garbage dump is just stupid.

Trust me the change will not affect me in the slightest. i play and main dw unholy dk fm3. saw many unhs in s2 and i played on previous whitemane and sunwell servers as unholy dk and know how both work and i know the results of both. as i said previously this is not something you can conclude, simply because there is not enough evidence of how it works on 3.3.5. the video itself that i posted is also based on a patch where gargoyle was not even the final talent, rather it is in the same spot where unholy blight is right now. unholy blight was the final talent so by this logic you can even argue that its likely patch 3.0 and might have had some changes? lol. regardless whatever the Devs decide im fine with i simply said what i said for the sake of a healthy playerbase that does not delve into complete degeneracy of classic who also has to undergo changes for the sake of balance. claiming you have DEFINITIVE proof is bullshit because there simply isn't any.

[Tednugg]

I agree with Manpower99 here, As for Apakalipsis1992's last message, this can go both ways, where is your proof that it had gcd on original wrath, you made a bug report with 0 proof from the original game, and then got at me when i provided the proof i can find. You tried to turn this post into my word vs yours, but this doesn't matter, bugs are fixed according to evidence, so either provide some or close the threat.

[Apakalipsis1992]

I agree with Manpower99 here, As for Apakalipsis1992's last message, this can go both ways, where is your proof that it had gcd on original wrath, you made a bug report with 0 proof from the original game, and then got at me when i provided the proof i can find. You tried to turn this post into my word vs yours, but this doesn't matter, bugs are fixed according to evidence, so either provide some or close the threat.

I didn't attack you. I made a mistake based on the fact that every caster in this game has a GCD (by the way, this is written in my post). I think you just didn't read. And you wrote that “it’s always worked this way” by providing wow classic logs. It's just funny "always". wow classic appeared recently. That is, you simply did not write the truth without evidence. I will not close this bug and will strive to fix this mechanic.

[Manpower99]

Its not the first time a long ass thread was opened on Gargoyle haste scaling, its a never ending subject on private servers and legit unless someone digs up something, which is gonna be very difficult or downright impossible. best thing imo is to determine which one would be healthier for multiple obvious reasons, if the Devs are fine with uncapped no gcd unholy dk and over 100+casts per gargoyle which by the way will have both pve and pvp issues then it is what it is. do note however that this server's gargoyle doesn't melee either meaning unholy dk's don't have to step out to cast it either, only point im making is you simply will never get a "blizzlike" gargoyle scripting. even classic didn't by their own admission as the 2008 AI handling was horrible and the classic version was much better. then they did a massive change during ulduar that no one enjoys. i would rather take a 1sec gcd and still have snapshotting haste than have to play with stupid dynamic haste gargoyle. regardless i do look forward to the decision and hopefully it is before launch as it will shape exactly how guilds will make their raiding comps.

[husker3011]

When prepatch came out on classic every single person on Dk discord was trying to find the proof GCD existed to make blizzard nerf it and they couldn't find it.

Opinion of Blight Club (scouring waybackmachine worldoflogs and patches) there was no GCD on gargoyle but a +-0.4sec batching period until patch 5.3.0 which removed that. "The following summoned pets/totems will now chain cast their spells with no delay between casts, allowing them to cast their spells more frequently in the same amount of time. Death Knight: [Summon Gargoyle]"

We had 10 pservers in a row with 9x warlocks in naxx and ulduar. On classic, even with 0gcd gargoyle after the dynamic haste nerf (few%), we still had 9x warlocks on world first (https://youtu.be/ewxLBdYTrPg?t=4100 ).

Personally I'm sick of every pserver being 9x warlocks until togc and morb was an exciting new thing, so I hope it stays in current or slightly nerfed way.

1sec gargoyle would brick the spec. 0.4 maximum cast time would probably keep it the most retail-like, keep it broken for T7 and T8 race and slightly avoid T9 T10 degeneracy with full haste sets.

[Apakalipsis1992]

Its not the first time a long ass thread was opened on Gargoyle haste scaling, its a never ending subject on private servers and legit unless someone digs up something, which is gonna be very difficult or downright impossible. best thing imo is to determine which one would be healthier for multiple obvious reasons, if the Devs are fine with uncapped no gcd unholy dk and over 100+casts per gargoyle which by the way will have both pve and pvp issues then it is what it is. do note however that this server's gargoyle doesn't melee either meaning unholy dk's don't have to step out to cast it either, only point im making is you simply will never get a "blizzlike" gargoyle scripting. even classic didn't by their own admission as the 2008 AI handling was horrible and the classic version was much better. then they did a massive change during ulduar that no one enjoys. i would rather take a 1sec gcd and still have snapshotting haste than have to play with stupid dynamic haste gargoyle. regardless i do look forward to the decision and hopefully it is before launch as it will shape exactly how guilds will make their raiding comps.

I completely agree with you. Even if there is no way to prove it now, as it was in 2008. It makes more sense to make a 1 second GCD, like all casters in the game. Why do all casters have this limitation, but the gargoyle does not? It doesn't seem logical. Even with such a weakening, this spec will not lose relevance. It will reach the same level as FDK, as it did on FM3, and will still be stronger than the classic UH spec.

[Manpower99]

When prepatch came out on classic every single person on Dk discord was trying to find the proof GCD existed to make blizzard nerf it and they couldn't find it.

Opinion of Blight Club (scouring waybackmachine worldoflogs and patches) there was no GCD on gargoyle but a +-0.4sec batching period until patch 5.3.0 which removed that. "The following summoned pets/totems will now chain cast their spells with no delay between casts, allowing them to cast their spells more frequently in the same amount of time. Death Knight: [Summon Gargoyle]"

We had 10 pservers in a row with 9x warlocks in naxx and ulduar. On classic, even with 0gcd gargoyle after the dynamic haste nerf (few%), we still had 9x warlocks on world first (https://youtu.be/ewxLBdYTrPg?t=4100 ).

Personally I'm sick of every pserver being 9x warlocks until togc and morb was an exciting new thing, so I hope it stays in current or slightly nerfed way.

1sec gargoyle would brick the spec. 0.4 maximum cast time would probably keep it the most retail-like, keep it broken for T7 and T8 race and slightly avoid T9 T10 degeneracy with full haste sets.

It won't brick the spec. people played warmane for years with 1sec gcd and the spec functions fine and balanced. however i can totally understand making a hard cap instead of between 1sec cast - 0.4 second cast time being the lowest cast time it can go towards or something. the only reason i say this because on warmane you can reach the 1sec cast time very easily with unh pres/lust/melee haste and couple of items and overall can get very boring. or make it so haste benefit gets lower and lower after 1sec cast so it doesn't get to ridiculous amount of casts like 100+ similar to classic.

[husker3011]

When prepatch came out on classic every single person on Dk discord was trying to find the proof GCD existed to make blizzard nerf it and they couldn't find it. Opinion of Blight Club (scouring waybackmachine worldoflogs and patches) there was no GCD on gargoyle but a +-0.4sec batching period until patch 5.3.0 which removed that. "The following summoned pets/totems will now chain cast their spells with no delay between casts, allowing them to cast their spells more frequently in the same amount of time. Death Knight: [Summon Gargoyle]" We had 10 pservers in a row with 9x warlocks in naxx and ulduar. On classic, even with 0gcd gargoyle after the dynamic haste nerf (few%), we still had 9x warlocks on world first (https://youtu.be/ewxLBdYTrPg?t=4100 ). Personally I'm sick of every pserver being 9x warlocks until togc and morb was an exciting new thing, so I hope it stays in current or slightly nerfed way. 1sec gargoyle would brick the spec. 0.4 maximum cast time would probably keep it the most retail-like, keep it broken for T7 and T8 race and slightly avoid T9 T10 degeneracy with full haste sets.

It won't brick the spec. people played warmane for years with 1sec gcd and the spec functions fine and balanced. however i can totally understand making a hard cap instead of between 1sec cast - 0.4 second cast time being the lowest cast time it can go towards or something. the only reason i say this because on warmane you can reach the 1sec cast time very easily with unh pres/lust/melee haste and couple of items and overall can get very boring. or make it so haste benefit gets lower and lower after 1sec cast so it doesn't get to ridiculous amount of casts like 100+ similar to classic.

All in all this is not fully a "bug" report, its mostly a balance report and we could write a similiar one to nerf warlocks. If blizzard found any proof that GCD existed (internally and externally) with tens of thousands of people seeking for it; they would've adapted it on the wotlk prepatch.

Having a new "spec" ie fast 1 hand unholy come out and then instantly having it nerfed by 15%+ to match warmane's meta after having 10+ servers of 8x warlock stacking is the most weak thing you can do.

I've played with players for years that were feeling like shit being forced to be the 1 unholydk in T8-T10 as most people enjoyed playing frost. And I've played with people who were sick of playing warlock every fresh just to have a smooth ulduar realm first chance.

Warlock meta has always incentivised splits as you always run spriest+boomie+demo+mage, and then add afflis on top; which always ended up with 20 alts and people swiping for caster trinkets and weapons on warmane week before T8 race. 1H Unholydk is a spec wanting raw plate/haste items, unwanted tank gear; opens up the raid and makes stuff fresher.

I know its stronger than warlock in the T7, maybe thats a good thing.

Beef bar was getting a 0.44sec gargoyle on classic naxx race,Putting a 0.4-0.5s cap is fine, and probably necessary for a healthy server. Putting a 1sec gcd is butchering the morb spec (sure its viable, but you'll run 8 warlocks anyway). Devs can do what they want, they just need to decide what type of meta they'd rather have.

[Karsenity]

When prepatch came out on classic every single person on Dk discord was trying to find the proof GCD existed to make blizzard nerf it and they couldn't find it.

Opinion of Blight Club (scouring waybackmachine worldoflogs and patches) there was no GCD on gargoyle but a +-0.4sec batching period until patch 5.3.0 which removed that. "The following summoned pets/totems will now chain cast their spells with no delay between casts, allowing them to cast their spells more frequently in the same amount of time. Death Knight: [Summon Gargoyle]"

We had 10 pservers in a row with 9x warlocks in naxx and ulduar. On classic, even with 0gcd gargoyle after the dynamic haste nerf (few%), we still had 9x warlocks on world first (https://youtu.be/ewxLBdYTrPg?t=4100 ).

Personally I'm sick of every pserver being 9x warlocks until togc and morb was an exciting new thing, so I hope it stays in current or slightly nerfed way.

1sec gargoyle would brick the spec. 0.4 maximum cast time would probably keep it the most retail-like, keep it broken for T7 and T8 race and slightly avoid T9 T10 degeneracy with full haste sets.

Was coming here to say the same thing. Pets/summons used to have a random delay between casts, here's a video from retail wotlk where you can visually see the variant delay between casts: https://youtu.be/jA5I7jCqyfg?si=DNjHrcQEdMAGT-OJ

Previous FM servers recreated this delay and it was perfectly balanced, as all it takes is a minor delay of even 0.1 to heavily impact the effect of haste: without it, the value of haste grows as you acquire more which leads to the exponential growth we saw in the re-release.

EDIT: also just for peoples balance concerns, with the delay DW UH was outperforming or almost on par with frost for most of the last FM season. It stays viable, but it doesn't become insanely overpowered the way it did in re-release

[Apakalipsis1992]

When prepatch came out on classic every single person on Dk discord was trying to find the proof GCD existed to make blizzard nerf it and they couldn't find it. Opinion of Blight Club (scouring waybackmachine worldoflogs and patches) there was no GCD on gargoyle but a +-0.4sec batching period until patch 5.3.0 which removed that. "The following summoned pets/totems will now chain cast their spells with no delay between casts, allowing them to cast their spells more frequently in the same amount of time. Death Knight: [Summon Gargoyle]" We had 10 pservers in a row with 9x warlocks in naxx and ulduar. On classic, even with 0gcd gargoyle after the dynamic haste nerf (few%), we still had 9x warlocks on world first (https://youtu.be/ewxLBdYTrPg?t=4100 ). Personally I'm sick of every pserver being 9x warlocks until togc and morb was an exciting new thing, so I hope it stays in current or slightly nerfed way. 1sec gargoyle would brick the spec. 0.4 maximum cast time would probably keep it the most retail-like, keep it broken for T7 and T8 race and slightly avoid T9 T10 degeneracy with full haste sets.

Was coming here to say the same thing. Pets/summons used to have a random delay between casts, here's a video from retail wotlk where you can visually see the variant delay between casts: https://youtu.be/jA5I7jCqyfg?si=DNjHrcQEdMAGT-OJ

Previous FM servers recreated this delay and it was perfectly balanced, as all it takes is a minor delay of even 0.1 to heavily impact the effect of haste: without it, the value of haste grows as you acquire more which leads to the exponential growth we saw in the re-release.

EDIT: also just for peoples balance concerns, with the delay DW UH was outperforming or almost on par with frost for most of the last FM season. It stays viable, but it doesn't become insanely overpowered the way it did in re-release

I completely agree. This spec will play just as well and match the DPS level of FDK. I certainly understand why two people in this thread want to leave everything as it is. They have a spec where they will press a couple of keys and produce insanely high DPS that will surpass all classes. And they just don’t want to lose it.

[Apakalipsis1992]

When prepatch came out on classic every single person on Dk discord was trying to find the proof GCD existed to make blizzard nerf it and they couldn't find it. Opinion of Blight Club (scouring waybackmachine worldoflogs and patches) there was no GCD on gargoyle but a +-0.4sec batching period until patch 5.3.0 which removed that. "The following summoned pets/totems will now chain cast their spells with no delay between casts, allowing them to cast their spells more frequently in the same amount of time. Death Knight: [Summon Gargoyle]" We had 10 pservers in a row with 9x warlocks in naxx and ulduar. On classic, even with 0gcd gargoyle after the dynamic haste nerf (few%), we still had 9x warlocks on world first (https://youtu.be/ewxLBdYTrPg?t=4100 ). Personally I'm sick of every pserver being 9x warlocks until togc and morb was an exciting new thing, so I hope it stays in current or slightly nerfed way. 1sec gargoyle would brick the spec. 0.4 maximum cast time would probably keep it the most retail-like, keep it broken for T7 and T8 race and slightly avoid T9 T10 degeneracy with full haste sets.

It won't brick the spec. people played warmane for years with 1sec gcd and the spec functions fine and balanced. however i can totally understand making a hard cap instead of between 1sec cast - 0.4 second cast time being the lowest cast time it can go towards or something. the only reason i say this because on warmane you can reach the 1sec cast time very easily with unh pres/lust/melee haste and couple of items and overall can get very boring. or make it so haste benefit gets lower and lower after 1sec cast so it doesn't get to ridiculous amount of casts like 100+ similar to classic.

All in all this is not fully a "bug" report, its mostly a balance report and we could write a similiar one to nerf warlocks. If blizzard found any proof that GCD existed (internally and externally) with tens of thousands of people seeking for it; they would've adapted it on the wotlk prepatch.

Having a new "spec" ie fast 1 hand unholy come out and then instantly having it nerfed by 15%+ to match warmane's meta after having 10+ servers of 8x warlock stacking is the most weak thing you can do.

I've played with players for years that were feeling like shit being forced to be the 1 unholydk in T8-T10 as most people enjoyed playing frost. And I've played with people who were sick of playing warlock every fresh just to have a smooth ulduar realm first chance.

Warlock meta has always incentivised splits as you always run spriest+boomie+demo+mage, and then add afflis on top; which always ended up with 20 alts and people swiping for caster trinkets and weapons on warmane week before T8 race. 1H Unholydk is a spec wanting raw plate/haste items, unwanted tank gear; opens up the raid and makes stuff fresher.

I know its stronger than warlock in the T7, maybe thats a good thing.

Beef bar was getting a 0.44sec gargoyle on classic naxx race,Putting a 0.4-0.5s cap is fine, and probably necessary for a healthy server. Putting a 1sec gcd is butchering the morb spec (sure its viable, but you'll run 8 warlocks anyway). Devs can do what they want, they just need to decide what type of meta they'd rather have.

When prepatch came out on classic every single person on Dk discord was trying to find the proof GCD existed to make blizzard nerf it and they couldn't find it. Opinion of Blight Club (scouring waybackmachine worldoflogs and patches) there was no GCD on gargoyle but a +-0.4sec batching period until patch 5.3.0 which removed that. "The following summoned pets/totems will now chain cast their spells with no delay between casts, allowing them to cast their spells more frequently in the same amount of time. Death Knight: [Summon Gargoyle]" We had 10 pservers in a row with 9x warlocks in naxx and ulduar. On classic, even with 0gcd gargoyle after the dynamic haste nerf (few%), we still had 9x warlocks on world first (https://youtu.be/ewxLBdYTrPg?t=4100 ). Personally I'm sick of every pserver being 9x warlocks until togc and morb was an exciting new thing, so I hope it stays in current or slightly nerfed way. 1sec gargoyle would brick the spec. 0.4 maximum cast time would probably keep it the most retail-like, keep it broken for T7 and T8 race and slightly avoid T9 T10 degeneracy with full haste sets.

It won't brick the spec. people played warmane for years with 1sec gcd and the spec functions fine and balanced. however i can totally understand making a hard cap instead of between 1sec cast - 0.4 second cast time being the lowest cast time it can go towards or something. the only reason i say this because on warmane you can reach the 1sec cast time very easily with unh pres/lust/melee haste and couple of items and overall can get very boring. or make it so haste benefit gets lower and lower after 1sec cast so it doesn't get to ridiculous amount of casts like 100+ similar to classic.

All in all this is not fully a "bug" report, its mostly a balance report and we could write a similiar one to nerf warlocks. If blizzard found any proof that GCD existed (internally and externally) with tens of thousands of people seeking for it; they would've adapted it on the wotlk prepatch.

Having a new "spec" ie fast 1 hand unholy come out and then instantly having it nerfed by 15%+ to match warmane's meta after having 10+ servers of 8x warlock stacking is the most weak thing you can do.

I've played with players for years that were feeling like shit being forced to be the 1 unholydk in T8-T10 as most people enjoyed playing frost. And I've played with people who were sick of playing warlock every fresh just to have a smooth ulduar realm first chance.

Warlock meta has always incentivised splits as you always run spriest+boomie+demo+mage, and then add afflis on top; which always ended up with 20 alts and people swiping for caster trinkets and weapons on warmane week before T8 race. 1H Unholydk is a spec wanting raw plate/haste items, unwanted tank gear; opens up the raid and makes stuff fresher.

I know its stronger than warlock in the T7, maybe thats a good thing.

Beef bar was getting a 0.44sec gargoyle on classic naxx race,Putting a 0.4-0.5s cap is fine, and probably necessary for a healthy server. Putting a 1sec gcd is butchering the morb spec (sure its viable, but you'll run 8 warlocks anyway). Devs can do what they want, they just need to decide what type of meta they'd rather have.

I don't understand why you think people feel bad playing the classic UH DK in the first phases. I played like this and competed almost at the same level with Frost. On FM3, frosts dressed in encore gave about 8.4k dps. I, being not fully dressed, UH DK, approximately 4.2k gs. I easily gave it 7.5+. I don't see a problem with this if you enjoy playing your spec. At the same time, DW UH DK also competed at the same level with frosts with the same dps of about 8.4+. All these figures are for the Naxxramas stage.

[husker3011]

All this is just balance decisions, blizzard internally and community found no proof for a GCD ever existing.

Comparing warmane's frostmourne core to custom buffed whitemane cores is BAD; on stuff like psychodelia's ulduar the affli selfhealing on XT tantrum/Freya tremors/alga stars and the damage on yogg0 is very crucial to the success of a guild. They were benching mages cause they couldn't survive the freya tremor combos.

Harder servers enforce meta more. Even on warmane you had guilds poach warlocks before races and create "superteams".

You stack 8 warlocks, you have boomie+mage+spriest+demo+7affli+5healers that ALL WANT pennant/unsullied/Illustration(/Dying Curse/Turning tide/Flare*). You wait until 1 week before next tier,you all swipe your credit cards to get bis (or run many many splits). You can now compete. Its also hard to assemble 10mans as its a pure dps spec, its just unhealthy. You can do other changes like adjust yogg0 to start last phase at 60% hp (instead of doubling his HP at 30%) but that wont be enough.

IMO Let the meta develop with Unholy - class that wants 1H tank weapons, preraid trinkets, has a tank offspec, is easy to level as alt since lvl55. This version of gargoyle existed for a while on multiple private servers and spec wasn't known, to overly nerf it now is just cringe.

Unholy was too strong on classic, but classic had half as much HP on every boss. I agree it needs a nerf long term;either the classic (dynamic haste); +-0.2sec random delay on attack; or a 0.4-0.5sec gcd cap on gargoyle.

TL;DR I agree it needs a nerf long term, but don't kill the innovation for the sake of matching warmane's frostmourne meta.

[Karsenity]

All this is just balance decisions, blizzard internally and community found no proof for a GCD ever existing.

Comparing warmane's frostmourne core to custom buffed whitemane cores is BAD; on stuff like psychodelia's ulduar the affli selfhealing on XT tantrum/Freya tremors/alga stars and the damage on yogg0 is very crucial to the success of a guild. They were benching mages cause they couldn't survive the freya tremor combos.

Harder servers enforce meta more. Even on warmane you had guilds poach warlocks before races and create "superteams".

You stack 8 warlocks, you have boomie+mage+spriest+demo+7affli+5healers that ALL WANT pennant/unsullied/Illustration(/Dying Curse/Turning tide/Flare*).

You wait until 1 week before next tier,you all swipe your credit cards to get bis (or run many many splits). You can now compete.

Its also hard to assemble 10mans as its a pure dps spec, its just unhealthy.

You can do other changes like adjust yogg0 to start last phase at 60% hp (instead of doubling his HP at 30%) but that wont be enough.

IMO Let the meta develop with Unholy - class that wants 1H tank weapons, preraid trinkets, has a tank offspec, is easy to level as alt since lvl55. This version of gargoyle existed for a while on multiple private servers and spec wasn't known, to overly nerf it now is just cringe.

Unholy was too strong on classic, but classic had half as much HP on every boss. I agree it needs a nerf long term;either the classic (dynamic haste); +-0.2sec random delay on attack; or a 0.4-0.5sec gcd cap on gargoyle.

TL;DR I agree it needs a nerf long term, but don't kill the innovation for the sake of matching warmane's frostmourne meta.

I mean I think we're in agreement already there wasn't a gcd, the discussion has been around the cast delay these last few messages. It's still a bug at the end of the day if their goal is to accurately recreate class balance, but fixing it isn't going to be the end of the world. You still haste-stack and snapshot gargoyles just as people did in classic, the small delay just prevents the exponential effect it has since haste can't effect the delay. This is the only reason unholy became overpowered to a gamebreaking degree in rerelease, without a small delay the # of casts approaches infinity as you keep stacking haste. It will still likely be the strongest spec in Naxx with the bug fixed, just not "double the damage of the next dps" broken.

[Apakalipsis1992]

All this is just balance decisions, blizzard internally and community found no proof for a GCD ever existing. Comparing warmane's frostmourne core to custom buffed whitemane cores is BAD; on stuff like psychodelia's ulduar the affli selfhealing on XT tantrum/Freya tremors/alga stars and the damage on yogg0 is very crucial to the success of a guild. They were benching mages cause they couldn't survive the freya tremor combos. Harder servers enforce meta more. Even on warmane you had guilds poach warlocks before races and create "superteams". You stack 8 warlocks, you have boomie+mage+spriest+demo+7affli+5healers that ALL WANT pennant/unsullied/Illustration(/Dying Curse/Turning tide/Flare*). You wait until 1 week before next tier,you all swipe your credit cards to get bis (or run many many splits). You can now compete. Its also hard to assemble 10mans as its a pure dps spec, its just unhealthy. You can do other changes like adjust yogg0 to start last phase at 60% hp (instead of doubling his HP at 30%) but that wont be enough. IMO Let the meta develop with Unholy - class that wants 1H tank weapons, preraid trinkets, has a tank offspec, is easy to level as alt since lvl55. This version of gargoyle existed for a while on multiple private servers and spec wasn't known, to overly nerf it now is just cringe. Unholy was too strong on classic, but classic had half as much HP on every boss. I agree it needs a nerf long term;either the classic (dynamic haste); +-0.2sec random delay on attack; or a 0.4-0.5sec gcd cap on gargoyle. TL;DR I agree it needs a nerf long term, but don't kill the innovation for the sake of matching warmane's frostmourne meta.

I mean I think we're in agreement already there wasn't a gcd, the discussion has been around the cast delay these last few messages. It's still a bug at the end of the day if their goal is to accurately recreate class balance, but fixing it isn't going to be the end of the world. You still haste-stack and snapshot gargoyles just as people did in classic, the small delay just prevents the exponential effect it has since haste can't effect the delay. This is the only reason unholy became overpowered to a gamebreaking degree in rerelease, without a small delay the # of casts approaches infinity as you keep stacking haste. It will still likely be the strongest spec in Naxx with the bug fixed, just not "double the damage of the next dps" broken.

I don’t understand how you came to the conclusion that we all agree that the GCD did not exist in the first place. What I understood is that we cannot prove that it was, and you cannot prove that it did not exist. Because such evidence simply does not exist. But the fact that all casters have such a delay, but the gargoyle will not have it, is somehow not correct, even logically. Gargoyle is the same caster.

[Apakalipsis1992]

All this is just balance decisions, blizzard internally and community found no proof for a GCD ever existing.

Comparing warmane's frostmourne core to custom buffed whitemane cores is BAD; on stuff like psychodelia's ulduar the affli selfhealing on XT tantrum/Freya tremors/alga stars and the damage on yogg0 is very crucial to the success of a guild. They were benching mages cause they couldn't survive the freya tremor combos.

Harder servers enforce meta more. Even on warmane you had guilds poach warlocks before races and create "superteams".

You stack 8 warlocks, you have boomie+mage+spriest+demo+7affli+5healers that ALL WANT pennant/unsullied/Illustration(/Dying Curse/Turning tide/Flare*). You wait until 1 week before next tier,you all swipe your credit cards to get bis (or run many many splits). You can now compete. Its also hard to assemble 10mans as its a pure dps spec, its just unhealthy. You can do other changes like adjust yogg0 to start last phase at 60% hp (instead of doubling his HP at 30%) but that wont be enough.

IMO Let the meta develop with Unholy - class that wants 1H tank weapons, preraid trinkets, has a tank offspec, is easy to level as alt since lvl55. This version of gargoyle existed for a while on multiple private servers and spec wasn't known, to overly nerf it now is just cringe.

Unholy was too strong on classic, but classic had half as much HP on every boss. I agree it needs a nerf long term;either the classic (dynamic haste); +-0.2sec random delay on attack; or a 0.4-0.5sec gcd cap on gargoyle.

TL;DR I agree it needs a nerf long term, but don't kill the innovation for the sake of matching warmane's frostmourne meta.

I think that the balance in terms of dw uh dk on warmane is very good. And I really hope that the admins will make the right decision and make a 1 second delay, like all casters in this game have, which will be fair.

[husker3011]

There is no public proof for one way or the other, but blizzard might have reasons why they chose to release it the way they did, assuming they had to even fully recode it. They have parts of source code, they probably have the source code during the 5.3.0 delay buff, they might know things.

Also to keep comparing balance of warmane to custom buffed content is also dumb.

After a -400dps nerf on dynamic gargoyle in ulduar (5min, simmed) during WRF classic race (assuming most fights will be 5min+- on custom buffed content), progress ended up running 0-1 unholy dk(depending on fight) and had warlocks top almost every fight, beef bar ended up with 8 warlocks on yogg0, and only ran 2 unholy dk's (and 2 frost) for algaon, where affli was #1 dps, with a rogue equaling the best unholy. Asking for a 1sec gcd and pretending its fine because thats what ur used to on warmane is old meta for the reason of matching old meta.

Check the ulduar race logs on classic, then check warmane. Warmane Invisus algalon you had a frost dk +1kdps ahead of unholy dk, disconnected algalon you had frost 600dps ahead of unholy.

Check these logs: End of tier algalon https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=757 End of tier firefighter https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=754 (you can add 400dps in your head to the unholy dk's to no gcd cap) on THORIM, a 1min zerg burst, affli and unholy are within 100dps https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=752.

This is all ignoring the arguments about loot and pay2win and the pain of affli splits.

If you want affli meta thats fine, but saying shit like "the right decision" and adding a custom nerf to class is stupid. "Gargoyle is the same caster." also doesnt mean much. why do hunter pets have a custom flat gcd of 1.25 if they're just casters,why are there are off-gcd abilities like rune tap or am.

Lets all make requests, I hope the devs make the "correct decision" and nerf holypaladins, nerf affli,buff rets and warrior in T7, ; nerf warrior feral and mage in T10, and nerf disco T8 set, etc etc... sigh

[Apakalipsis1992]

There is no public proof for one way or the other, but blizzard might have reasons why they chose to release it the way they did, assuming they had to even fully recode it. They have parts of source code, they probably have the source code during the 5.3.0 delay buff, they might know things.

Also to keep comparing balance of warmane to custom buffed content is also dumb.

After a -400dps nerf on dynamic gargoyle in ulduar (5min, simmed) during WRF classic race (assuming most fights will be 5min+- on custom buffed content), progress ended up running 0-1 unholy dk(depending on fight) and had warlocks top almost every fight, beef bar ended up with 8 warlocks on yogg0, and only ran 2 unholy dk's (and 2 frost) for algaon, where affli was #1 dps, with a rogue equaling the best unholy. Asking for a 1sec gcd and pretending its fine because thats what ur used to on warmane is old meta for the reason of matching old meta.

Check the ulduar race logs on classic, then check warmane. Warmane Invisus algalon you had a frost dk +1kdps ahead of unholy dk, disconnected algalon you had frost 600dps ahead of unholy.

Check these logs: End of tier algalon https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=757 End of tier firefighter https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=754 (you can add 400dps in your head to the unholy dk's to no gcd cap) on THORIM, a 1min zerg burst, affli and unholy are within 100dps https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=752.

This is all ignoring the arguments about loot and pay2win and the pain of affli splits.

If you want affli meta thats fine, but saying shit like "the right decision" and adding a custom nerf to class is stupid. "Gargoyle is the same caster." also doesnt mean much. why do hunter pets have a custom flat gcd of 1.25 if they're just casters,why are there are off-gcd abilities like rune tap or am.

Lets all make requests, I hope the devs make the "correct decision" and nerf holypaladins, nerf affli,buff rets and warrior in T7, ; nerf warrior feral and mage in T10, and nerf disco T8 set, etc etc... sigh

Please. It's your right to make your own reports. I will insist to the last minute on correcting what I consider incorrect.

[Apakalipsis1992]

If you read above, even a person playing dw uh dk also agrees that gargoyles should have a limit of 1 second GCD

[ammenvale]

What is most important is what is accurate for og 3.3.5, backed up by factual evidence. You have posted zero evidence supporting 1 sec GCD. So far the only sources that have been posted in this threat point to a variable 0-0.4 delay due to lingering batching code as the most likely og 3.3.5 behavior.

[Manpower99]

What is most important is what is accurate for og 3.3.5, backed up by factual evidence. You have posted zero evidence supporting 1 sec GCD. So far the only sources that have been posted in this threat point to a variable 0-0.4 delay due to lingering batching code as the most likely og 3.3.5 behavior.

There is no evience that points to either. i cannot look at classic's t7 gargoyle and think that is intended behavior. i also was wrong on something, i have tested for a while on warmane and it seems even there does not have a gcd. instead it has a delay between casts that only gets more delayed the more haste you have. meaning its a sort of a diminishing value of haste. it is a working system obv intended to make it more "fair" to other classes but it runs into the issue of making haste's value much lower than it should be and reaching a wall where even after so much haste + buffs and bl you barely get 30casts, gets boring and unfun very quick. there is also no denying that out of every private server currently still running, warmane's gargoyle scripting feels least clunky but also the weakest in terms of damage. if anything i can also argue that the AI in whitemane's gargoyle is clunky af and often skips a cast very randomly. but regardless i do think this is an issue of balance that can be solved through attempting to replicate what we know of 3.3.5a's Gargoyle which is adding a a randomized 0.4 delay between each casts to prevent the classic wotlk's machine gunning gargoyle but hopefully they also implement AI improvements to it aswell.

[danniellos94]

Gargoyle never had a GBC it had random delay in original wrath which was about 0.4 seconds average between casts which warmane has. Originally this was changed in MoP. Wotlk classic fixed it which makes unholy utterly OP and nerfed it on ulduar phase to dynamic scaling (with haste) which was still better than random delay.

[Apakalipsis1992]

In any case, I hope that the gargoyle will not be left in this form as it is now, because this is a very high increase in DPS. I don't want to see 10+ uh dk in every raid. I still hope to implement a 1 second GCD for the gargoyle.

[Tednugg]

In any case, I hope that the gargoyle will not be left in this form as it is now, because this is a very high increase in DPS. I don't want to see 10+ uh dk in every raid. I still hope to implement a 1 second GCD for the gargoyle.

I think you made it clear more than once, that you don't care about how the spell is supposed to work, but rather just want to see DKs nerfed, i think you should close the bug report now.

[Apakalipsis1992]

In any case, I hope that the gargoyle will not be left in this form as it is now, because this is a very high increase in DPS. I don't want to see 10+ uh dk in every raid. I still hope to implement a 1 second GCD for the gargoyle.

I think you made it clear more than once, that you don't care about how the spell is supposed to work, but rather just want to see DKs nerfed, i think you should close the bug report now.

I think you haven't provided any evidence from the original wow 3.3.5 how this spell is supposed to work according to you. I just don’t want this death knight spec to be imbalanced and frosts, just like they did on FM warmane, have a chance to compete with him. So I don't think you should tell me what to do. I will not close this report and will seek its correction.

[husker3011]

To summerize my thoughts - by implementing a gcd and not a +-0.4s random delay your:

• Heavily incetivising degenerate splits - since cloth/caster is most contested loot since healers take caster loot (pennant,unsullied,illustration,ttt), and you always need a boomie+sp+mage+demo while also stacking affli
• Killing loot diversity as there isnt competitive plate in T7
• Forcing upon top guilds the same meta as last 20 servers (on which this version of morb dk existed, but people didn't know about it)
• Killing innovation and something new and exciting for pservers
• Pushing away many people who played unholy on classic and want to play it again, yet wont be able to

End of tier8 frost dk was +-500dps away from unholydk with the shortest fight times, and was leading against unholy on many bosses during the early tier8. T7 unholy was overpowered, but that was mostly due to 30sec fight timers, which wont exist on whitemane. (plus they spike early due to darkmooncard+whettstone, getting 2 bis trinkets in preraid)

When it comes to balance, even without GCD, both progress and beef bar ran 6+ warlocks on ulduar race without buffed xp.

This is end of tier8 logs: Algalon https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=757 Firefighter https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=754 1min zerg Thorim (best case scenario for gargoyle) https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=752 (this includes the nerf of dynamic haste which equated for about 3-4%. - but no random delay, but doesnt include affli's ToT snapshot)

I dont care about "feelings" and how people percieve the balance on warmane and "I think the unholy was fine" - in top guilds unholy was a dead clunky support spec that everybody hated playing and always wanted to swap to frost but couldn't because of AoE debuff.

Bad balance decision, kills my excitement. That is all. PS. I'm a mage, its not only about "MY SPEC NEEDS TO BE STRONG" - I just want diversity other than warlock stacking, and was excited to maybe try out some unholy dk.

[Manpower99]

Clearly despite video and log evidence of randomized 0.4 per cast delays you guys went with the lazy option of adding a gcd. inevitably this is neither blizzlike nor will incentivize anything except lack of enjoyment of the spec. it is what it is in the end but the decision to satisfy people who neither play the spec nor actually care about balance but rather simply to allow to cater to people who are more interested in dumbing the game down is both anti fun and against your standards of attempting to replicate 3.3.5a's class balance.

[Apakalipsis1992]

To summerize my thoughts - by implementing a gcd and not a +-0.4s random delay your:

• Heavily incetivising degenerate splits - since cloth/caster is most contested loot since healers take caster loot (pennant,unsullied,illustration,ttt), and you always need a boomie+sp+mage+demo while also stacking affli
• Killing loot diversity as there isnt competitive plate in T7
• Forcing upon top guilds the same meta as last 20 servers (on which this version of morb dk existed, but people didn't know about it)
• Killing innovation and something new and exciting for pservers
• Pushing away many people who played unholy on classic and want to play it again, yet wont be able to

End of tier8 frost dk was +-500dps away from unholydk with the shortest fight times, and was leading against unholy on many bosses during the early tier8. T7 unholy was overpowered, but that was mostly due to 30sec fight timers, which wont exist on whitemane. (plus they spike early due to darkmooncard+whettstone, getting 2 bis trinkets in preraid)

When it comes to balance, even without GCD, both progress and beef bar ran 6+ warlocks on ulduar race without buffed xp.

This is end of tier8 logs: Algalon https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=757 Firefighter https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=754 1min zerg Thorim (best case scenario for gargoyle) https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1017#partition=2&boss=752 (this includes the nerf of dynamic haste which equated for about 3-4%. - but no random delay, but doesnt include affli's ToT snapshot)

I dont care about "feelings" and how people percieve the balance on warmane and "I think the unholy was fine" - in top guilds unholy was a dead clunky support spec that everybody hated playing and always wanted to swap to frost but couldn't because of AoE debuff.

Bad balance decision, kills my excitement. That is all. PS. I'm a mage, its not only about "MY SPEC NEEDS TO BE STRONG" - I just want diversity other than warlock stacking, and was excited to maybe try out some unholy dk.

Well, you yourself said that you don’t care about other people’s opinions, and how good and balanced everything is on the warmane. Also, why should I or other people who don’t like this clumsy spec care as much as they did on the wow classic (garbage dump)?

[Afgann]

fixed