[MAGE] Fingers of Frost Vol 2

[haephaistoss]

Description: After the previous thread had been disregarded I did some further digging, because FoF insane uptime isn't what's reflected in any wcm movies from actual wotlk, and multiple sources point to FoF sharing a proc chance roll with frostbite.

What this means is, that if both talents are fully maxed, they ALWAYS happen at the same time - one cannot happen without the other.

Now to the fun part:

Frostbite seems to proc roughly 15 % of the time, while FoF around 45 %. - so Frostbite is correct, and FoF isn't.

In my testing Frostbite triggers always triggered FoF, but FoF did trigger a lot of times without Frostbite - hence the disparity.

How to reproduce: Cast rank1 frostbolts to a target infinite times

How it should work: According to multiple sources, FoF and Frostbite procs should be tied together, on the same roll.

Database links: https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/spell=44545/fingers-of-frost#comments

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/index.php?title=Fingers_of_Frost&oldid=3318693

I have yet to find a single instance where FoF procs without frostbite in any wcm movie of the era.

[Piootrek]

Fixed

[crabcakeowo]

As of my current testing, FoF procced 16 times out of 100 casts, this is without FB talented. With FB talented, I had it procced 26 out of 100 casts.

OP posted that FoF triggers at a rate of 45% is actually false numbers.

[haephaistoss]

Well in my testing it came to be 47 procs and or aura refreshes / 100 casts, and on the 2nd round 42, so I avged those 🤷

[Piootrek]

I've fixed that Frostbite didn't proc along with Fingers of Frost. FoF proc rate should be same as the before. Right now it has 2x 15% chance to proc, 15% on cast to proc itself and 15% on spell hit that Frostbite proc and trigger FoF. I need proof if it is an incorrect behavior.

[haephaistoss]

The proc chance for both should be 15%, no more, no less, and on blizz it was a single chance roll, that's all what we know for sure.

[crabcakeowo]

You might have counted 2 charges per aura refresh for each FOF proc because the numbers don't add up and I've been playing frost mage on live server since week 3.

[crabcakeowo]

AFAIK it was widely considered a bug during wotlk that FoF and frostbite had only a single chance to roll and there was a thread where Ghostcrawler himself said that it was due to technical difficulties during the time to correctly fix this.

This feels alright and balanced at the moment at the very least with 2x 15% chance to proc, otherwise mages will have a dead talent in frostbite for pve and will render the entire spec obsolete in PVE.

[haephaistoss]

That's very sad, but regardless, if that's how it worked, that's the behavior that needs to be replicated. Yes, ppl complained about it a lot, and no change had ever been made til very much later on.

[haephaistoss]

I've fixed that Frostbite didn't proc along with Fingers of Frost. FoF proc rate should be same as the before. Right now it has 2x 15% chance to proc, 15% on cast to proc itself and 15% on spell hit that Frostbite proc and trigger FoF. I need proof if it is an incorrect behavior.

That's the opposite of what should be fixed.

FoF proc / refresh / aura application and Frostbite should be tied to the same chance roll with it happening at a 15/100 chance.

Currently Frostbite seems to be fine, so FoF should be tied to Frostbite trigger and not vice versa.

[Piootrek]

I'm pretty sure that FoF should proc Frostbite too. https://youtu.be/j2PutvaR-_U here around 1:53, he got FoF after cast and frostbite procced after frostbolt hit a target. That's how it should work after my fix

[crabcakeowo]

I do agree it's a good point that you are making, however, we already do not follow this same set of rules for other classes. But changes had been made later on because they did acknowledge it was a bug at that time, in my opinion it's fine to fix it now that its possible seeing as the server is not exactly blizzlike as well right?

[haephaistoss]

I'm pretty sure that FoF should proc Frostbite too. https://youtu.be/j2PutvaR-_U here around 1:53, he got FoF after cast and frostbite procced after frostbolt hit a target. That's how it should work after my fix

I don't know how it should be handled in terms of server side logic, I only wanna point out the fact that the frequency at which FoF is applied is determined by the same chance roll that determines the frequency of Frostbite procs, and not separate from it.

And the chance at which this 1 roll happens that procs both effects is 15 %.

From what we can see, it looks to me eerily similar to how Paladin Judgements worked in wrath - the spell was cast, the chance roll for crit was done, vengeance + 3% dmg was applied, then the actual critical hit landed (which already benefitted from the vengeance that it triggered).

In this instance at the moment of the spell cast being finished FoF proced which means the 15 % roll was a success, so frostbite will proc once the spell has landed. In the video you linked (which is classic and not og wrath btw) this is exactly what's happening.

[crabcakeowo]

On the video that Piootrek linked, at 8:23 FOF procced but FB did not proc. (There's no root DR as you can see from gladius UI)

Moments later it also procced on Ice lance cast, maybe Piootrek you can look into that and see what actually procced fingers?

Because i've rewatched it multiple times and I still don't understand how did fingers procced again on Ice lance cast, unless it procced via winter's chill debuff.

[haephaistoss]

On the video that Piootrek linked, at 8:23 FOF procced but FB did not proc. (There's no root DR as you can see from gladius UI)

Moments later it also procced on Ice lance cast, maybe Piootrek you can look into that and see what actually procced fingers?

Because i've rewatched it multiple times and I still don't understand how did fingers procced again on Ice lance cast, unless it procced via winter's chill debuff.

Classic is no basis for any fix afaik, since its a different game

But FoF procs from the spell landing not from the spell cast.

[crabcakeowo]

You are right that it is a different game but I believe that if some changes that were made to the classic client were to fix certain bugs that existed way before and this is one of them, it's actually good and makes the game better.

Moreover, we have certainty with video evidence that it worked like that in wotlk classic but no certainty that it worked like how you described from wotlk retail.

If anything, this issue should be a game design decision whether it is considered a bug or it's current state is how it should be working.

[haephaistoss]

Actually I've linked a lot of sources to show how it worked.

And while I agree some changes like old AT's 3.3.5b for instance would be nice to spice things up, the current consensus is, that we should stick to og wrath, and og wrath only. We're not here to improve the game, let's make it work first and then we can start thinking about making it better.

And in og wrath it worked on 1 chance roll for both procs, totaling a 15% proc chance

[crabcakeowo]

That is not the current consensus, that is just your assumption, if we are going to stick to og wrath, we'll have to remove spellweaving from Enha shamans, rebuff gargoyle for dks and a couple multitude of things from other classes.

If you are all for that then yeah, you can imagine the backlash from the playerbase. My guess is that you are beta testing but not playing on the live server?

You would know that is not true at all if you think everything on this server is og wrath-like.

[Piootrek]

https://youtu.be/OR-bIxvAzR0 video from OG wotlk 1:42 - FoF procced on cast and triggered frostbite upon spell landing

I still didn't see a single proof that should have single 15% proc chance.

[haephaistoss]

https://youtu.be/OR-bIxvAzR0 video from OG wotlk 1:42 - FoF procced on cast and triggered frostbite upon spell landing

I still didn't see a single proof that should have single 15% proc chance.

It's pre 3.3 video, the buff trigger was changed in 3.3.

That's why I linked the wowhead part:

They always proc together and the chance to proc is flat 15%.

It's literally all over the internet, wowwiki, wowhead, you name it. Either both procs, or none and they do proc 15% of the time.

What changed in 3.3 (based on data I could find and present here) is the way the buff is consumed - the proc chance or the 2 talents being on a signle roll hasn't been touched until very much later on.

Old version: FoF buff is consumed upon spell landing, 3.3 version: FoF stack is consumed after spellcast is finished.

From the 2 videos that's what I found out:

Old VIdeo is pre 3.3, and if we assume classic resembles 3.3, then the new video shows the behavioral difference

[crabcakeowo]

Even if it worked back then like how you describe it and I get that part. However it's not making the game any better especially when changes to the mechanic were made during wotlk classic to address that issue.

I think this requires a game design decision on whether it should stand as it is with 15% chance to proc both and 15% chance to proc FoF on its own OR just a singular 15% chance to proc. Video evidence from Wotlk Classic shows that having a chance to proc both buffs and FOF seperately.

This server is already not as closely tied as you think to retail wotlk with QOL improvements and furthermore certain class changes such as https://github.com/gamefreedomgit/Frostmourne/issues/1483

While you could dispute this all you want, there is still no video evidence of what you are saying is true but on the flipside there is concrete video evidence of how it was in Wotlk Classic.

Not to mention, this is not an agenda against what you are saying but I'm saying this as a live player myself, with how it is at the current moment, it's working fine as is and the current state of it is what I think will be better for the general populace and whatever you are proposing is counter-intuitive of what we are striving for this server to be.

[haephaistoss]

Even if it worked back then like how you describe it and I get that part. However it's not making the game any better especially when changes to the mechanic were made during wotlk classic to address that issue.

I think this requires a game design decision on whether it should stand as it is with 15% chance to proc both and 15% chance to proc FoF on its own OR just a singular 15% chance to proc. Video evidence from Wotlk Classic shows that having a chance to proc both buffs and FOF seperately.

This server is already not as closely tied as you think to retail wotlk with QOL improvements and furthermore certain class changes such as #1483

While you could dispute this all you want, there is still no video evidence of what you are saying is true but on the flipside there is concrete video evidence of how it was in Wotlk Classic.

Not to mention, this is not an agenda against what you are saying but I'm saying this as a live player myself, with how it is at the current moment, it's working fine as is and the current state of it is what I think will be better for the general populace and whatever you are proposing is counter-intuitive of what we are striving for this server to be.

I don't mean to be rude but this is just rubbish. There isn't a single instance in any video ever where FoF procs from a spell that didn't proc Frostbite, or vice versa

Look what I've found here:

https://github.com/ClassicWoWCommunity/cata-classic-bugs/issues/8

It was still the case in cata and confirmed by big daddy blizzard.

The report itself is from wotlk classic

[crabcakeowo]

On the video that Piootrek linked, at 8:23 FOF procced but FB did not proc. (There's no root DR as you can see from gladius UI)

Moments later it also procced on Ice lance cast, maybe Piootrek you can look into that and see what actually procced fingers?

Because i've rewatched it multiple times and I still don't understand how did fingers procced again on Ice lance cast, unless it procced via winter's chill debuff.

Maybe you should check the video again that Piootrek linked? I've already timestamped it for you, but yeah continue calling it rubbish.

[haephaistoss]

You're just offtopic shitposting at this point.

The bug is that they should have a single 15 % proc roll, and neither should proc without the other, and the chance to proc should be 15%, and not more.

Anything else is another report

[crabcakeowo]

You are saying that neither should proc without the other, I am giving you video evidence that it did happen but you are saying I'm offtopic. What?

[haephaistoss]

It's from the same spell. The order was changed later, but the same spell fact remains

[crabcakeowo]

From which spell? I only see him casting frostbolt and he got FOF proc whereas FB didn't.

[haephaistoss]

Timestamp link then, I've watched both and a dozen more and there was nothing like that

[crabcakeowo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2PutvaR-_U 8:23

[haephaistoss]

it's classic, so it's no basis for anything here. It's a binary debuff, it probably missed, since we can't look at his combat log, and has no combat text.

enemy frost mage may have arctic winds talent which increases his chance to have spells miss against him.

[crabcakeowo]

It definitely did not miss. You can clearly see winter's chill and frostbolt slow debuff applied on him, there is still the possibility that the frostbite got fully resisted however if you're saying things like this then there's no combat log/combat text on your end as well to prove anything.

Found another timestamp that showcases this at 10:19, root didn't get extra DR whereas FoF procced again.

Also you need to remove the idea that there is no basis from classic when the server is already a custom modded server with some things from WOTLK classic. At this point your main agenda is clearly to get the server to be as close to og wotlk as possible which I get it and can understand your point as well but sometimes it may not be the best thing for the server.

[haephaistoss]

I'm stating a fact that has written proofs all over the place, let alone blizzard's (you know the og developer of this game) own github bugtracker.

On blizz every spell had a base 1 % chance to miss and it couldn't be overcome with anything.

Binary spells like frostbite that either hit or don't just miss (resist).

Talents also can't be capped against.

So either everybody else is a retard and you're the smart one or it's the other way around, buess which is more likely?

I get it, you don't want it to be fixed, you're benefitting from it giving you 50% crit chance, who wouldn't want that. Big numbers go bam bam

[crabcakeowo]

Are you even a live player or just a play tester that is sitting on PTR all day? The server is not even CLOSE to og wotlk blizzlike with the numerous amounts of QOL changes and class changes that was implemented on Classic and they did it here as well.

Saying that classic has no basis for anything is false and you need to get that in your head.

Also I've not personally attacked you in any way and I even told you that I do see your point but if you are going to give these kinds of arguments without even understanding the state of the server is in and just assuming the server is 100% og blizzlike then I've not much left to tell you because you clearly don't know what's happening.

[crabcakeowo]

Also, I'm not sure if you noticed, I'm not calling for things to be a certain way, I've even specifically said that this requires game design decision from the beginning. You are giving your point that this was how it worked last time, I'm giving my point on why things have changed ever since.

What sort of state the devs want this server to be in, is completely up to them, but disregarding evidence shown just because you want it a certain way is just being ignorant at this point.

[reminuz]

Haep is right. He gives u 2000 proofs.