VO2 and threshold in training

[garrett-sutton]

I've been hearing, talking, reading and learning about v02 max and lactate threshold recently.

Create a post that puts a lot of that information together for me.

I would expect to explain the details of what LT is and how it benefits me if I improve it and what v02 max is and how it benefits me if I improve it.

Then, talk about how these 2 relate to each other. From the LT is X % of VO2 to how they help to improve each other

It may also be helpful to put together a small interlude on zone 2 and what the overall structure of a training plan might look like.

For LT

• Blood lactate levels of < 4 mmol
• LT is flat flat and then exponential growth

For vO2

• How much O2 someone can use per unit time to create energy
• Why try to improve if you're genetically only able to do so much?

For zone 2

• use the paper from San Milan to talk about fat ox and blood lactate levels. This could tie into the LT discussion

Also potentially talk through how this relates to the Norwegian method? Or this could be another post.

[garrett-sutton]

Something interesting around the world of double threshold and how it relates to both of these things: https://nutrabio.com/blogs/endurelite/a-complete-guide-to-double-threshold-training

[garrett-sutton]

I think I need to make a distinction between aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold. It would be helpful to understand what paces might be good for me here.

[garrett-sutton]

I confused the heck out of myself with the stuff from above. I am generally actually interested in anaerobic threshold. However; your aerobic threshold is the point at which the blood lactate levels start to rise. This is sometimes around 2 mmol/l. And then people will shoot for 4 mmol/l for anaerobic threshold.

Anaerobic threshold is the point at which your body can no longer clear lactate from the blood and it begins to accumulate. This means your muscles start to produce energy in a less efficient way because they have to deal with the acidity in the blood that is associated with the increased lactate levels.

As for the numbers, as you become more fit, your body is generally able to reduce the anaerobic threshold. This still feels weird to me, but I think the point becomes you become really good at just not producing lactate (i.e. you can stay aerobic at high efforts), so when you do produce the lactate it is hard to clear because you're already asking a lot of the body.

Graph from Tadej's coach is found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6PDBVRkCKc&t=2995s (49:56 into the video)

wikipedia was quite helpful on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold

• In the Lactate measurement of aerobic and anaerobic thresholds section, it mentions that 2 mmol/L is a good guesstimate on when you hit the aerobic threshold. It then calls out 4 mmol/L as a good guesstimate on anaerobic threshold.
• It is a bit unclear on what actually contributes to anaerobic threshold. It's also probably important to mention that when people say they are increasing the threshold, it feels like that actually means they are increasing speed/output at which they actually reach the blood lactate level where they can no longer break down lactate. If this is true, it feels like it's probably fair to say that the lactate level in the blood that you can no longer handle probably stays pretty static over time. It's just that when you become more fit, your body can do a lot more before getting to that point
• This article has a graph that identifies aerobic and anaerobic threshold nicely: https://upsidestrength.com/blog/lactate-threshold/

[garrett-sutton]

Another interesting piece that I didn't consider with respect to the "lowering" anaerobic threshold that is mentioned by the Norwegian guy: [link to his blog post]((https://www.mariusbakken.com/the-norwegian-model.html)

He doesn't mention vo2 max at all. and as runners get closer to the pinnacle of their fitness their speed at anaerobic threshold just becomes a higher percentage of their vo2 max. vo2 max is a separate metric all together dealing with the body's ability to consume oxygen during high intensity exercise. I think there is a theoretical maximum on an individual's vo2 max. And it seems plausible that they could have an anaerobic threshold that is so high that the limiting factor for them is actually their ability to consume oxygen rather than their ability to manage blood lactate levels.

• vo2 max is combined efficiency of the heart, lungs and muscles. It's the max capacity of the cardiovascular system to transport and utilize oxygen during exercise.
• lactate threshold is the muscle's ability to manage lactate production and clear lactate during sustained (sub-maximal) efforts. This is ultimately a measure of metabolic efficiency and muscular endurance.

[garrett-sutton]

Chapter 3 of Jack Daniels book goes into pretty good depth on this concept as a whole (vo2 and lactate).

[garrett-sutton]

My take from the Jack Daniels book is that T running is used to improve endurance and his term of threshold running is pretty much the same as what is defined around threshold in the context of double threshold training.

[garrett-sutton]

I did some more investiation into the Norwegian training method by reading this blog on Jakob's training: https://coros.com/stories/athlete-stories/c/inside-the-training-of-jakob-ingebrigtsen

The interesting piece of this to me is that I don't think they would call threshold a single pace. It's more of a stimulus. And I've also heard similar sentiment from Matej Mahoric (from here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t-5qPuGiSM).

Jakob does a common workout of 20-25x400 at 5k-10k pace (likely closer to 10k). And gets approximately 30 seconds between each rep. Based on the blog, it seems to indicate he runs these 400s at ~62. If you plug in his ~1500m time of 3:30 to Jack Daniels calculator, you'll see that this is way faster than his "tempo" pace. Threshold pace in Jack Daniels world is ~70s/400. And his Interval pace should be about 64s/400. In Jack Daniels parlance, threshold is likely intervals that are at least a mile long and interval is probably intervals that are more like 3-8 minutes (vo2 max intervals) with about equal rest. Given the length of these intervals, it's almost as if Jakob is doing something like Repetitions (short and very fast up to a minute intervals that should improve economy and you should do them with full recovery) in Jack Daniels world. But he does these a bit slower and with much less rest. I think this ties in nicely with what Matej had to say in the video I linked above.

Mahoric is basically saying that doing 10 minute threshold intervals ends up getting you into a state where your heart and lungs are also working hard. Those can become a limiting factor for you. And you don't produce as much lactate. But he advocates for doing 30/30 because this can remove your heart and lungs from the equation. They don't need to work as hard and it can guarantee that you are producing lactate. It's quite possible that you'll produce more lactate. The goal should be for your body to produce a ton of lactate and teach your body to get better at washing it away. He does use "all-out" as he's talking, so it seems to indicate he's definitely pushing more than we'd say you are pushing in a traditional "tempo"/"lactate threshold" sense.

After hearing the Mahoric take and seeing Jakob's training, it seems like this just goes to show that if the goal is to improve your lactate threshold, then subjecting your body to lactate is probably the move. It's good if you can do that in isolation so that other factors aren't getting in the way of producing / clearing that lactate.

My take for my own training: This seems like something to really keep in mind. I think I have a few fears when it comes to workouts.

1. I don't like doing vo2 max intervals. They feel like they take a ton out of me and they are honestly pretty daunting to do. I spend a lot of mental energy to just get started on them
2. I have felt in the past that I run a lot of "tempo" (5:1 tempo/rest), but it's challenging for 2 reasons. 1 is that I think I can run these too fast sometimes and end up tipping over. I would say that I probably did this a bit this spring while leading into monona 20k. This is a result of overreliance on hitting paces rather than feeling it out. And 2, I have felt like I struggle to change paces at various points in time. What I mean by this is that I ended up running a lot of intervals at tempo pace and for the marathon, it was a bit daunting to run a faster marathon pace because it was getting closer to tempo (something I've only done for maybe 20 minute intervals). And for shorter races (back in college especially), I think it felt really daunting to run races because I didn't run at that pace much. I may have done intervals at around race pace but I was never comfortable doing them. And then we'd do these longer interval like tempos. I feel like I could just get into a funk of running 1 pace and struggling to feel confident that I can go faster. All of this rambling is to say that I think this style of training may suit me well. There is still certainly a place for me to run the longer tempo intervals, but I should also consider running faster shorter intervals with a limited amount of rest to get the same stimulus.

[garrett-sutton]

follow-up on Mahoric - this might be interesting: https://zachnehr.com/2023/03/01/power-analysis-bahrain-victorious-january-2023-training-camp-part-i/

[garrett-sutton]

To further complicate this issue, I found this reddit post about the various zones. https://www.reddit.com/r/Zwift/comments/17ue5ee/zone7_101_everything_you_ever_wanted_to_know/