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Ibatan [ibat1238] and 'Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language #91

Closed malcolm42 closed 6 years ago

malcolm42 commented 7 years ago

Ibatan [ibat1238] and Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language. This apparent error has occurred because the Batanic [bata1315] subgroup of Austronesian straddles the border between Taiwan and the Philippines. The information for Batanic is from a Taiwanese source (Li, Paul Jen-Kuei 2000). The information for Ibatan is from three sources, one of which (Pawley 2006) deals exclusively with the Philippines.

haspelmath commented 7 years ago

Ethnologue distinguishes between two varieties, [ivb] and [ivv]: https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1

Apparently these are merely different dialects.

How should Glottolog call the language? Ivatan or Ibatan?

M.

On 04.11.16 04:52, malcolm42 wrote:

Ibatan [ibat1238] and Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language. This apparent error has occurred because the Batanic [bata1315] subgroup of Austronesian straddles the border between Taiwan and the Philippines. The information for Batanic is from a Taiwanese source (Li, Paul Jen-Kuei 2000). The information for Ibatan is from three sources, one of which (Pawley 2006) deals exclusively with the Philippines.

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Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath@shh.mpg.de) Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena & Leipzig University IPF 141199 Nikolaistrasse 6-10 D-04109 Leipzig

d97hah commented 7 years ago

Ivatan [ivat1242] is supposed to refer to Ivatan on Itbayat island (better labeled Itbayat) and as such it is not the same language as Ibatan [ibat1238], but yes the name is misleading and there are inconsistencies in the references which will be fixed for next version. all the best, H

2016-11-04 7:42 GMT+01:00 Martin Haspelmath notifications@github.com:

Ethnologue distinguishes between two varieties, [ivb] and [ivv]: https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1

Apparently these are merely different dialects.

How should Glottolog call the language? Ivatan or Ibatan?

M.

On 04.11.16 04:52, malcolm42 wrote:

Ibatan [ibat1238] and Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language. This apparent error has occurred because the Batanic [bata1315] subgroup of Austronesian straddles the border between Taiwan and the Philippines. The information for Batanic is from a Taiwanese source (Li, Paul Jen-Kuei 2000). The information for Ibatan is from three sources, one of which (Pawley 2006) deals exclusively with the Philippines.

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Martin Haspelmath (haspelmath@shh.mpg.de) Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10 D-07745 Jena & Leipzig University IPF 141199 Nikolaistrasse 6-10 D-04109 Leipzig

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haspelmath commented 7 years ago

Ethnologue distinguishes between

-- Ivatan [ivv] on Batanes Islands (corresponding to [ivat1242])

(with three dialects: Itbayat, Basco/Batan Ivatan, Southern Ivatan)

-- Ibatan [ivb] on Babuyan Islands (corresponding to [ibat1238])

("Intelligibility of Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv 64%; Basco Ivatan [ivv] https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv 31%. Lexical similarity: 72% with Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv, 74% with Basco Ivatan [ivv] https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv (1974--1975 SIL survey).")

According to Ross (2005), there are two languages:

-- Itbayat (Itbayat Island of the Batenes)

-- Ivatan (Batan and Sabtang of the Batanes, plus Babuyan Islands)

Another questions is whether both are part of Batanic (bata1315) or not.

Best, Martin

On 05.11.16 19:14, d97hah wrote:

Ivatan [ivat1242] is supposed to refer to Ivatan on Itbayat island (better labeled Itbayat) and as such it is not the same language as Ibatan [ibat1238], but yes the name is misleading and there are inconsistencies in the references which will be fixed for next version. all the best, H

2016-11-04 7:42 GMT+01:00 Martin Haspelmath notifications@github.com:

Ethnologue distinguishes between two varieties, [ivb] and [ivv]: https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1

Apparently these are merely different dialects.

How should Glottolog call the language? Ivatan or Ibatan?

M.

On 04.11.16 04:52, malcolm42 wrote:

Ibatan [ibat1238] and Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language. This apparent error has occurred because the Batanic [bata1315] subgroup of Austronesian straddles the border between Taiwan and the Philippines. The information for Batanic is from a Taiwanese source (Li, Paul Jen-Kuei 2000). The information for Ibatan is from three sources, one of which (Pawley 2006) deals exclusively with the Philippines.

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malcolm42 commented 7 years ago

Dear Martin,

Hopefully you received my email citing Laurie Reid, sent a few hours ago. This is primarily a naming problem, I think.

Another question is whether both are part of Batanic (bata1315) or not.

Yes, they are. I have examined the data carefully, and Babuyan and Ivatan are closely related.

—Malcolm

On 6 Nov. 2016, at 23:10, Martin Haspelmath <notifications@github.com mailto:notifications@github.com> wrote:

Ethnologue distinguishes between

-- Ivatan [ivv] on Batanes Islands (corresponding to [ivat1242])

(with three dialects: Itbayat, Basco/Batan Ivatan, Southern Ivatan)

-- Ibatan [ivb] on Babuyan Islands (corresponding to [ibat1238])

("Intelligibility of Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv> 64%; Basco Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv> 31%. Lexical similarity: 72% with Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv>, 74% with Basco Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv> (1974--1975 SIL survey).")

According to Ross (2005), there are two languages:

-- Itbayat (Itbayat Island of the Batenes)

-- Ivatan (Batan and Sabtang of the Batanes, plus Babuyan Islands)

Another questions is whether both are part of Batanic (bata1315) or not.

Best, Martin

On 05.11.16 19:14, d97hah wrote:

Ivatan [ivat1242] is supposed to refer to Ivatan on Itbayat island (better labeled Itbayat) and as such it is not the same language as Ibatan [ibat1238], but yes the name is misleading and there are inconsistencies in the references which will be fixed for next version. all the best, H

2016-11-04 7:42 GMT+01:00 Martin Haspelmath <notifications@github.com mailto:notifications@github.com>:

Ethnologue distinguishes between two varieties, [ivb] and [ivv]: https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1 https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1

Apparently these are merely different dialects.

How should Glottolog call the language? Ivatan or Ibatan?

M.

On 04.11.16 04:52, malcolm42 wrote:

Ibatan [ibat1238] and Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language. This apparent error has occurred because the Batanic [bata1315] subgroup of Austronesian straddles the border between Taiwan and the Philippines. The information for Batanic is from a Taiwanese source (Li, Paul Jen-Kuei 2000). The information for Ibatan is from three sources, one of which (Pawley 2006) deals exclusively with the Philippines.

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d97hah commented 7 years ago

Agree, and yes they are all Batanic, though Itbayat subgroups with Yami ahead of C Ivatan-Babuyan according to Li:s paper, which makes sense. Will be corrected for next version of Glottolog. all the best, H

2016-11-06 13:42 GMT+01:00 malcolm42 notifications@github.com:

Dear Martin,

Hopefully you received my email citing Laurie Reid, sent a few hours ago. This is primarily a naming problem, I think.

Another question is whether both are part of Batanic (bata1315) or not.

Yes, they are. I have examined the data carefully, and Babuyan and Ivatan are closely related.

—Malcolm

On 6 Nov. 2016, at 23:10, Martin Haspelmath <notifications@github.com mailto:notifications@github.com> wrote:

Ethnologue distinguishes between

-- Ivatan [ivv] on Batanes Islands (corresponding to [ivat1242])

(with three dialects: Itbayat, Basco/Batan Ivatan, Southern Ivatan)

-- Ibatan [ivb] on Babuyan Islands (corresponding to [ibat1238])

("Intelligibility of Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/ language/ivv> 64%; Basco Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/ language/ivv> 31%. Lexical similarity: 72% with Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv < https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv>>, 74% with Basco Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv < https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv>> (1974--1975 SIL survey).")

According to Ross (2005), there are two languages:

-- Itbayat (Itbayat Island of the Batenes)

-- Ivatan (Batan and Sabtang of the Batanes, plus Babuyan Islands)

Another questions is whether both are part of Batanic (bata1315) or not.

Best, Martin

On 05.11.16 19:14, d97hah wrote:

Ivatan [ivat1242] is supposed to refer to Ivatan on Itbayat island (better labeled Itbayat) and as such it is not the same language as Ibatan [ibat1238], but yes the name is misleading and there are inconsistencies in the references which will be fixed for next version. all the best, H

2016-11-04 7:42 GMT+01:00 Martin Haspelmath <notifications@github.com mailto:notifications@github.com>:

Ethnologue distinguishes between two varieties, [ivb] and [ivv]: https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1 < https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1>

Apparently these are merely different dialects.

How should Glottolog call the language? Ivatan or Ibatan?

M.

On 04.11.16 04:52, malcolm42 wrote:

Ibatan [ibat1238] and Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language. This apparent error has occurred because the Batanic [bata1315] subgroup of Austronesian straddles the border between Taiwan and the Philippines. The information for Batanic is from a Taiwanese source (Li, Paul Jen-Kuei 2000). The information for Ibatan is from three sources, one of which (Pawley 2006) deals exclusively with the Philippines.

You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/clld/glottolog-data/issues/91 < https://github.com/clld/glottolog-data/issues/91>>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/> AFTdqrKQ7nWoVE557qGwBRtwFY-5kRNLks5q6qwMgaJpZM4KpKzj>.

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haspelmath commented 7 years ago

Sorry, no, I didn't get the mail citing Laurie Reid.

It seems, then, that the languages cannot be mapped onto Ethnologue codes. (Though Ethnologue's "Ibatan [ivb]" could be treated as a dialects of "C Ivatan-Babuyan".)

Martin

On 06.11.16 14:48, d97hah wrote:

Agree, and yes they are all Batanic, though Itbayat subgroups with Yami ahead of C Ivatan-Babuyan according to Li:s paper, which makes sense. Will be corrected for next version of Glottolog. all the best, H

2016-11-06 13:42 GMT+01:00 malcolm42 notifications@github.com:

Dear Martin,

Hopefully you received my email citing Laurie Reid, sent a few hours ago. This is primarily a naming problem, I think.

Another question is whether both are part of Batanic (bata1315) or not.

Yes, they are. I have examined the data carefully, and Babuyan and Ivatan are closely related.

---Malcolm

On 6 Nov. 2016, at 23:10, Martin Haspelmath <notifications@github.com mailto:notifications@github.com> wrote:

Ethnologue distinguishes between

-- Ivatan [ivv] on Batanes Islands (corresponding to [ivat1242])

(with three dialects: Itbayat, Basco/Batan Ivatan, Southern Ivatan)

-- Ibatan [ivb] on Babuyan Islands (corresponding to [ibat1238])

("Intelligibility of Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/ language/ivv> 64%; Basco Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv https://www.ethnologue.com/ language/ivv> 31%. Lexical similarity: 72% with Itbayaten Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv < https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv>>, 74% with Basco Ivatan [ivv] <https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv < https://www.ethnologue.com/language/ivv>> (1974--1975 SIL survey).")

According to Ross (2005), there are two languages:

-- Itbayat (Itbayat Island of the Batenes)

-- Ivatan (Batan and Sabtang of the Batanes, plus Babuyan Islands)

Another questions is whether both are part of Batanic (bata1315) or not.

Best, Martin

On 05.11.16 19:14, d97hah wrote:

Ivatan [ivat1242] is supposed to refer to Ivatan on Itbayat island (better labeled Itbayat) and as such it is not the same language as Ibatan [ibat1238], but yes the name is misleading and there are inconsistencies in the references which will be fixed for next version. all the best, H

2016-11-04 7:42 GMT+01:00 Martin Haspelmath <notifications@github.com mailto:notifications@github.com>:

Ethnologue distinguishes between two varieties, [ivb] and [ivv]: https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1 < https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/ivatan-1>

Apparently these are merely different dialects.

How should Glottolog call the language? Ivatan or Ibatan?

M.

On 04.11.16 04:52, malcolm42 wrote:

Ibatan [ibat1238] and Ivatan [ivat1242] are the same language. This apparent error has occurred because the Batanic [bata1315] subgroup of Austronesian straddles the border between Taiwan and the Philippines. The information for Batanic is from a Taiwanese source (Li, Paul Jen-Kuei 2000). The information for Ibatan is from three sources, one of which (Pawley 2006) deals exclusively with the Philippines.

You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/clld/glottolog-data/issues/91 < https://github.com/clld/glottolog-data/issues/91>>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/> AFTdqrKQ7nWoVE557qGwBRtwFY-5kRNLks5q6qwMgaJpZM4KpKzj>.

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