add Old Hungarian

[martino-vic]

Hi all,

in this repo: https://github.com/martino-vic/rtbwestoldturkic/blob/main/etc/languages.tsv I've been working with three languages that are not in Glottolog yet, namely Old Hungarian, Early Ancient Hungarian and Late Ancient Hungarian. I was wondering if there would be any interest in adding those to Glottolog, since entries like "Old English", "Old Burmese" etc. exist too.

If yes, is there any PR that I should ideally use as a template?

Thank you in advance!

[haspelmath]

What we need to add a language to Glottolog is some key references (sometimes a single reference is sufficient). Maybe this is not so urgent in the case of earlier varieties of Hungarian, but you may be able to tell us which are the best references for these three.

Incidentally, I'm wondering if there could be "chronodialects", e.g. such that Early Ancient Hungarian and Late Ancient Hungarian would be treated as dialects of the same chronolect (as they were presumably mutually intelligible and thus not rall distinct languages).

Am 21.10.22 um 14:00 schrieb Viktor Martinović:

Hi all,

in this repo: https://github.com/martino-vic/rtbwestoldturkic/blob/main/etc/languages.tsv I've been working with three languages that are not in Glottolog yet, namely Old Hungarian, Early Ancient Hungarian and Late Ancient Hungarian. I was wondering if there would be any interest in adding those to Glottolog, since entries like "Old English", "Old Burmese" etc. exist too.

If yes, is there any PR that I should ideally use as a template?

Thank you in advance!

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABKN3KTGB3VCN6ZGAGFO2E3WEKAWFANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

-- Martin Haspelmath Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Deutscher Platz 6 D-04103 Leipzig https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/

[martino-vic]

Well, I have worked only with one source here, namely "West Old Turkic" by András Róna-Tas (2011, Harrassowitz). Despite this, I would say Old Hungarian is a quite widely used concept. Intuitively I would say that the most appropriate source to quote here would be the recently published "Oxford Guide to the Uralic Languages" by Bakró-Nagy et al. As to Early and Late Ancient Hungarian: I think these two terms are only used by the author of the data I am working with. Also, Old Hungarian refers to written, and mostly already digitised, texts between the 10th and 15th century, where as the two Ancient Hungarian layers refer to hypothesised stages, reconstructed from early Turkic borrowings.

[d97hah]

Thanks Viktor! I think there is a good case for "Old Hungarian" as a language to be added as 10-15th century stuff is unlikely to be intelligible to modern Hungarian. I recognize the denomination "Old Hungarian" from the literature but do you happen to know another good source which defines Old Hungarian and discusses its linguistic and sociolinguistic properties in an overarching manner? (As opposed to just mentioning that such and such existed Old Hungarian). The OGUL does not, as far as I can see. Early and Late Ancient Hungarian as inferred stages is not a good idea to add on the nature of the evidence you quote (see Glottolog principles). all the best, H

Pada tanggal Jum, 21 Okt 2022 pukul 14.52 Viktor Martinović < @.***> menulis:

Well, I have worked only with one source here, namely "West Old Turkic" by András Róna-Tas (2011, Harrassowitz). Despite this, I would say Old Hungarian is a quite widely used concept. Intuitively I would say that the most appropriate source to quote here would be the recently published "Oxford Guide to the Uralic Languages" by Bakró-Nagy et al. As to Early and Late Ancient Hungarian: I think these two terms are only used by the author of the data I am working with. Also, Old Hungarian refers to written, and mostly already digitised, texts between the 10th and 15th century, where as the two Ancient Hungarian layers refer to hypothesised stages, reconstructed from early Turkic borrowings.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899#issuecomment-1286921980, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2QHSFIRHUUUSKFHOOUUZDWEKGYXANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message ID: @.***>

[martino-vic]

off the top of my head I'd say Kiefer Ferenc described the different stages of Hungarian in more detail in his 2003 handbook "a magyar nyelv kézikönyve" ("handbook of the Hungarian language"), but I don't remember any socio-linguistic aspects mentioned there. I can't find an online-version of his book, that's why I can't say more to this right now. But I'll check the library and will have a look into whether there might be something newer or more relevant out there.

Its BibTex reference:

@book{2003Amnk, year = {2003}, title = {A magyar nyelv kézikönyve}, edition = {1. kiad..}, language = {hun}, address = {Budapest}, keywords = {Hungarian language}, publisher = {Akad. Kiadó}, isbn = {9630579855}, }

There's also an Old Hungarian corpus; as far as I can tell it's lacking socio-linguistic aspects, but might be still worth mentioning. They want to be cited as: Eszter Simon: Corpus building from Old Hungarian codices. In: Katalin É. Kiss (ed.): The Evolution of Functional Left Peripheries in Hungarian Syntax. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2014. (manuscript). The corresponding website is http://omagyarkorpusz.nytud.hu/en-intro.html

[d97hah]

Thanks, I'll find something suitable myself sooner or later but any tips welcome!

Pada tanggal Sen, 24 Okt 2022 pukul 11.49 Viktor Martinović < @.***> menulis:

off the top of my head I'd say Kiefer Ferenc described the different stages of Hungarian in more detail in his 2003 handbook "a magyar nyelv kézikönyve" ("handbook of the Hungarian language"), but I don't remember any socio-linguistic aspects mentioned there. I can't find an online-version of his book, that's why I can't say more to this right now. But I'll check the library and will have a look into whether there might be something newer or more relevant out there.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899#issuecomment-1288752971, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2QHSCWWRT5PO4RMADLFDLWEZLRPANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[SimonGreenhill]

Just chiming in, it would be helpful to specify the age range for these types of thing - 'early', 'middle', 'late' etc blend into each other, so having some criterion here would help stop this turning into a mess (e.g. "Old Hungarian (10-15th C)" rather than simply "Old Hungarian")

[d97hah]

There's an attribute timespan for all old-ish languages and most extinct languages which should carry this information regardless of whether it is in the name or not. The Timespan attribute is not yet shown in the interface but is there in the .ini-files.

Pada tanggal Sen, 24 Okt 2022 pukul 23.07 Simon J Greenhill < @.***> menulis:

Just chiming in, it would be helpful to specify the age range for these types of thing - 'early', 'middle', 'late' etc blend into each other, so having some criterion here would help stop this turning into a mess (e.g. "Old Hungarian (10-15th C)" rather than simply "Old Hungarian")

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899#issuecomment-1289617731, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2QHSFZTYXFFA4RIYLOVXLWE33A3ANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[SimonGreenhill]

perfect!

[xrotwang]

@SimonGreenhill fyi: https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog-cldf/issues/16

[martino-vic]

do you happen to know another good source which defines Old Hungarian and discusses its linguistic and sociolinguistic properties in an overarching manner?

Just found it: It's chapter 12 "Az ómagyar kor" [the Old Hungarian period] by Klára Korompai in "Magyar Nyelv" [Hungarian Language] edited by Ferenc Kiefer, see bibtex:

@book{Kiefer2006, title={Magyar nyelv}, author={Kiefer, Ferenc}, year={2006}, publisher={Akad{\'e}miai Kiad{\'o}} }

it would be helpful to specify the age range for these types of thing

Old Hungarian is usually (like e.g. by Kiefer 2006, see above) described as the period between the arrival in Europe in 895 and the battle of Mohács in 1526, so "Old Hungarian (895-1526)" would be also a possibility I think.

[d97hah]

Thanks I'll add Old Hungarian for next version. The Korompay article is not an ideal source as it e.g. doesn't say where Old Hungarian was spoken. There seems to be a richer description in the A magyar nyelv történeti nyelvtana which I'll try to get a copy of soon. all the best, H

Pada tanggal Sen, 2 Jan 2023 pukul 15.28 Viktor Martinović < @.***> menulis:

do you happen to know another good source which defines Old Hungarian and discusses its linguistic and sociolinguistic properties in an overarching manner?

Just found it: It's chapter 12 "Az ómagyar kor" [the Old Hungarian period] by Klára Korompai in "Magyar Nyelv" [Hungarian Language] edited by Ferenc Kiefer, see bibtex:

@book https://github.com/book{Kiefer2006, title={Magyar nyelv}, author={Kiefer, Ferenc}, year={2006}, publisher={Akad{'e}miai Kiad{'o}} }

it would be helpful to specify the age range for these types of thing Old Hungarian is usually described as the period between the arrival in Europe in 895 and the battle of Mohács in 1526, so "Old Hungarian (895-1526)" would be also a possibility I think.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899#issuecomment-1368993559, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2QHSADEQFJRXIYKXKNH3DWQLQZFANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[martino-vic]

Glad to see Old Hungarian being added, thank you! :) The book you mentioned, "A magyar nyelv történeti nyelvtana" ( Benkő 1991) is a available as a pdf from here: http://real-eod.mtak.hu/5499/1/torteneti_nyelvtan_1_000907377.pdf The introduction is also written in English. It mentions some dates for Old Hungarian, but I couldn't find anything about geography (strg+f "Hungary/Carpath/Magyarország/Kárpát"). I also looked at the table of content to see if this information may be else where, but didn't find anything.

[d97hah]

Thanks, it's three volumes (also 1992, 1995) which I am downloading now. Also an index (1997) but it will take a while to browse it...

Pada tanggal Jum, 6 Jan 2023 pukul 15.26 Viktor Martinović < @.***> menulis:

Glad to see Old Hungarian being added, thank you! :) The book you mentioned, "A magyar nyelv történeti nyelvtana" ( Benkő 1991) is a available as a pdf from here: http://real-eod.mtak.hu/5499/1/torteneti_nyelvtan_1_000907377.pdf The introduction is also written in English. It mentions some dates for Old Hungarian, but I couldn't find anything about geography (strg+f "Hungary/Carpath/Magyarország/Kárpát"). I also looked at the table of content to see if this information may be else where, but didn't find anything.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899#issuecomment-1373708614, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2QHSHXOQPIXANPWRRZOO3WRATQ3ANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[martino-vic]

"Kis magyar nyelvtörténet [small Hungarian language history]" by Károly Gerstner (2013): https://mek.oszk.hu/15000/15090/15090.pdf is also good. A compact chronology is on page 11, and the geography is indirectly hinted at on p13 when listing up some monasteries of the earliest corpus material (which is in Old Hungarian)

[d97hah]

Indeed. Thanks!

Pada tanggal Jum, 6 Jan 2023 pukul 16.17 Viktor Martinović < @.***> menulis:

"Kis magyar nyelvtörténet [small Hungarian language history]" by Károly Gerstner (2013): https://mek.oszk.hu/15000/15090/15090.pdf is also good. A compact chronology is on page 11, and the geography is indirectly hinted at on p13 when listing up some monasteries of the earliest corpus material (which is in Old Hungarian)

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899#issuecomment-1373759658, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2QHSAVVFGQQDAGPWH2PY3WRAZSBANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>

[martino-vic]

not sure if relevant but realised there's an ISO-code for Old Hungarian: https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/ohu

[d97hah]

Thanks! H

Pada tanggal Kam, 26 Jan 2023 pukul 18.46 Viktor Martinović < @.***> menulis:

not sure if relevant but realised there's an ISO-code for Old Hungarian: https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/ohu

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/glottolog/glottolog/issues/899#issuecomment-1405371962, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AA2QHSH3EIABELUEQYK73K3WUK2A7ANCNFSM6AAAAAARLDHEJU . You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID: @.***>