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googlefonts / opensans

Open Sans font
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OpenSans OTF version? #47

Open Fronabulax opened 2 years ago

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

My client’s printer asks for an OTF version of the OpenSans font, is one available? They claim they get errors with the ttf version.

Grateful for any pointers, thanks, Fredrik

signalwerk commented 2 years ago

@Fronabulax The font here is an OpenType font according to the OpenType-Standard. You can find the files here. I therefore don't understand what your request is.

signalwerk commented 2 years ago

Can you please elaborate what you need?

anthrotype commented 2 years ago

they probably mean a CFF-flavoured OpenType Font (usually denoted with a file extension ".otf") to distinguish it from a TrueType-flavored OpenType font (extension ".ttf"); the former uses PostScript CFF table to describe the glyph outlines whereas the latter uses TrueType glyf table.

In theory the two formats are interchageable, and one should be enough. Can you please ask your client's printer what error do they get, where and how to reproduce this?

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Hi Stefan! thank you for your reply. Some printing companies that work for us have contacted me about problems with Open Sans. Their RIP is flagging an error "Can't print Open Sans Type TrueType (CID) Identity-H" They are having to convert ads to type outlines which is a bit impractical.

My clients are asking us to send them Open Sans in OpenType format but I can't find any?

The link you supplied above seems to point to TrueType font files, or am I missing something? I reached out to Google Fonts on Twitter, they say they never made OTF versions.

What is going on with this?

many thanks again, Fredrik

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 5:50 PM Stefan Huber @.***> wrote:

@Fronabulax https://github.com/Fronabulax The font here is an OpenType font according to the OpenType-Standard. You can find the files here https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/tree/main/fonts/ttf. I therefore don't understand what your request is.

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Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Hi Cosimo! client says "this CID font is not supported by any RIPs in this country. Can you please send Open Type fonts." Does that make sense? What more can I ask them?

cheers, fredrik

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 6:05 PM Cosimo Lupo @.***> wrote:

they probably mean a CFF-flavoured OpenType Font (usually denoted with a file extension ".otf") to distinguish it from a TrueType-flavored OpenType font (extension ".ttf"); the former uses PostScript CFF table to describe the glyph outlines whereas the latter uses TrueType glyf table.

In theory the two formats are interchageable, and one should be enough. Can you please ask your client's printer what error do they get, where and how to reproduce this?

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/issues/47#issuecomment-1064293543, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AYEDQ7ADIH44Z6GZB5YO6BLU7ITUJANCNFSM5QGY4NQQ . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

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anthrotype commented 2 years ago

exactly, we never make OTFs because TTFs are sufficent, at least that's our understanding. I'd like to know more about the error and how to reproduce it. Sorry for my ignorance, what is an "RIP"?

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Sorry, RIP is Raster Image Processor, a fancy name for a printer I suppose : ) I will ask them to describe their problems in more detail

Fredrik

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 6:13 PM Cosimo Lupo @.***> wrote:

exactly, we never make OTFs because TTFs are sufficent, at least that's our understanding. I'd like to know more about the error and how to reproduce it. Sorry for my ignorance, what is an "RIP"?

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anthrotype commented 2 years ago

this https://stackoverflow.com/a/26313183 suggests one could use fontforge to convert OTF => TTF, but I am not sure how "lossy" that conversion is in practice, you could try at your own risk.

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Ok here is what I got from my client’s printer:

“The problem is the CID typeface. No printers in Sweden support it.

If you swap it out it will work.

An alternative is to use an OpenType font.

Otherwise we have to keep converting to outlines before printing”

Does this make sense to you? What is a CID font? Can I get Open Sans that is not CID? How can help them?

Many thanks,

Fredrik

tors 10 mars 2022 kl. 18:13 skrev Cosimo Lupo @.***>:

exactly, we never make OTFs because TTFs are sufficent, at least that's our understanding. I'd like to know more about the error and how to reproduce it. Sorry for my ignorance, what is an "RIP"?

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/issues/47#issuecomment-1064301739, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AYEDQ7CGXWOKEFXQEBOEJH3U7IUURANCNFSM5QGY4NQQ . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

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anthrotype commented 2 years ago

but ours is not a "CID" font, it's TrueType OpenType font. Where is the "CID" coming from? Maybe it's the format the TTF gets converted to when it gets embedded in a PDF by a particular PDF distiller that you are using?

kenmcd commented 2 years ago

The "CID" font and "Identity-H" are character encoding issues caused by the application, and PDF library, used to create the PDF. It has nothing to do with the font being OpenType-TT (.ttf), or OpenType-PS (.otf).

signalwerk commented 2 years ago

@Fronabulax thank you for clarification. Maybe we can try to solve your problem by understanding the process you struggle with.

From my past (I'm not active in print industry anymore) I know that printers had problem to process TrueType fonts in the past. But that's a long time ago since the industry agreed on OpenType-Fonts. The Link I sent you above is a link to a 100% valid OpenType-Font. There are two flavors of OpenType (as @anthrotype alaborated). But if your printer is not able to process OpenType it's getting tricky since OpenSans is a OpenType-Font in the Flavor of TrueType. But for me the question is about the process. In the Print industry you usually have two ways how you send fonts to a RIP. It's wrapped inside a PostScript file or it's wrapped in a PDF.

If the font is not embedded in the PDF or PostScript the printer can try to install the Font in the RIP direct, but this is usually not recommended.

How do you try to feed the data and font to the RIP? Usually, in Print-Industry there are Standards for exchanging Print-Files.

I would recommand you to bring a PDF/X-3 (or similar) to the Printer. Thats what they are used to.

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Hi Stefan, excellent, thank you!

I’m supplying PDFs to several clients. Exporting out of Adobe InDesign using Acrobat.

On examining these PDFs using Adobe Acrobat preflight, I can see that sometimes one out of all embedded fonts is listed as CID, and the rest not.

One suspicious thing: one client requested “ PDF/X‑1a, PDF 1.3” which I presume is an older spec.

Could this have lead to these CID fonts being embedded and confused my client’s rip?

Is there a way to prevent any CID fonts being embedded? Maybe if I use a more up-to-date export setting like pdf/x-3 or x-4 that I normally would select?

Thank you, Fredrik

fre 11 mars 2022 kl. 14:37 skrev Stefan Huber @.***>:

@Fronabulax https://github.com/Fronabulax thank you for clarification. Maybe we can try to solve your problem by understanding the process you struggle with.

From my past (I'm not active in print industry anymore) I know that printers had problem to process TrueType fonts in the past. But that's a long time ago since the industry agreed on OpenType-Fonts. The Link I sent you above is a link to a 100% valid OpenType-Font. There are two flavors of OpenType (as @anthrotype https://github.com/anthrotype alaborated). But if your printer is not able to process OpenType it's getting tricky since OpenSans is a OpenType-Font in the Flavor of TrueType. But for me the question is about the process. In the Print industry you usually have two ways how you send fonts to a RIP. It's wrapped inside a PostScript file or it's wrapped in a PDF.

  • PostScript-Embeding → the software you use converts/embeds the local installed font and sends the PostScript-File with all the text and fonts to the RIP. Here your software (InDesign, Quark, Word, ...) needs to create a valid PostScript-File. If this conversion is not done right, the RIP will stop.
  • PDF → the software you use embeds the font in the PDF and this PDF is then sent to the RIP. The RIP needs usually be more modern to process PDFs

If the font is not embedded in the PDF or PostScript the printer can try to install the Font in the RIP direct, but this is usually not recommended.

How do you try to feed the data and font to the RIP? Usually, in Print-Industry there are Standards for exchanging Print-Files.

I would recommand you to bring a PDF/X-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/X (or similar) to the Printer. Thats what they are used to.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/issues/47#issuecomment-1065120726, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AYEDQ7CRT4XF3G245AYA3O3U7NEAPANCNFSM5QGY4NQQ . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub.

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Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Hey,

If you allow me to extend on this – attaching an error message from an Adobe Acrobat preflight check of one of the offending files.

It says “font name is not unique (22 matches on 1 page) and lists 22 instances one of which refers to a “TrueType CID”

I’m out of my depth here, what can I do to squash this issue?

Thanks,

Fredrik

From: Stefan Huber @.> Sent: Friday, 11 March 2022 14:37 To: googlefonts/opensans @.> Cc: Fronabulax @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [googlefonts/opensans] OpenSans OTF version? (Issue #47)

@Fronabulax https://github.com/Fronabulax thank you for clarification. Maybe we can try to solve your problem by understanding the process you struggle with.

From my past (I'm not active in print industry anymore) I know that printers had problem to process TrueType fonts in the past. But that's a long time ago since the industry agreed on OpenType-Fonts. The Link I sent you above is a link to a 100% valid OpenType-Font. There are two flavors of OpenType (as @anthrotype https://github.com/anthrotype alaborated). But if your printer is not able to process OpenType it's getting tricky since OpenSans is a OpenType-Font in the Flavor of TrueType. But for me the question is about the process. In the Print industry you usually have two ways how you send fonts to a RIP. It's wrapped inside a PostScript file or it's wrapped in a PDF.

If the font is not embedded in the PDF or PostScript the printer can try to install the Font in the RIP direct, but this is usually not recommended.

How do you try to feed the data and font to the RIP? Usually, in Print-Industry there are Standards for exchanging Print-Files.

I would recommand you to bring a PDF/X-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/X (or similar) to the Printer. Thats what they are used to.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/issues/47#issuecomment-1065120726 , or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AYEDQ7CRT4XF3G245AYA3O3U7NEAPANCNFSM5QGY4NQQ . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

kenmcd commented 2 years ago

It says “font name is not unique (22 matches on 1 page) and lists 22 instances one of which refers to a “TrueType CID”

No font name should be "TrueType CID" - that should only be the font type. Which could indicate some corruption in the PDF. Or the PDF was not created properly.

What application is creating the PDF? Can you supply a sample page of the PDF which has this issue? Or the whole thing?

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Thank you, much appreciated!

Attaching a sample advert. Exported from Adobe InDesign CC 2022 on Windows 10.

Using preset High Quality Print, PDF/X-1a:2003

Best,

Fredrik

From: kenmcd @.> Sent: Saturday, 12 March 2022 00:53 To: googlefonts/opensans @.> Cc: Fronabulax @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [googlefonts/opensans] OpenSans OTF version? (Issue #47)

It says “font name is not unique (22 matches on 1 page) and lists 22 instances one of which refers to a “TrueType CID”

No font name should be "TrueType CID" - that should only be the font type. Which could indicate some corruption in the PDF. Or the PDF was not created properly.

What application is creating the PDF? Can you supply a sample page of the PDF which has this issue? Or the whole thing?

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/issues/47#issuecomment-1065666685 , or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AYEDQ7EBM57S7GC6LGIRAMTU7PMEZANCNFSM5QGY4NQQ . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub . You are receiving this because you were mentioned. https://github.com/notifications/beacon/AYEDQ7FVEX426EBNHXL2YA3U7PMEZA5CNFSM5QGY4NQ2YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOH6CMQ7I.gif Message ID: @. @.> >

signalwerk commented 2 years ago

@Fronabulax did your last mail contained an attachment? I think you use Mail to interact with a GitHub issues. If you would like to upload a PDF you probably need to use the Website. Otherwise, we won't get the file. (Drag and Drop to the comment-section)

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

ad-ttfx1.pdf

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

@signalwerk thank you so much for following up! i attached a sample file above. there are several fonts used on this page, and Open Sans is the only one that displays a problem. Exported from Adobe InDesign 2022 / Windows 10 / Fredrik

kenmcd commented 2 years ago

ad-ttfx1.pdf

There is nothing wrong with that PDF. No structural errors, and the encoding is fine. Most of the Open Sans text is encoded as TrueType/WinAnsiEncoding. There is one line which is encoded as TrueType (CID)/Identity-H and that is:

“Bistros” till finaste “Lyx” i samarbete med Svenska

That is because the curly quotes are not in WinAnsiEncoding. TrueType (CID)/Identity-H is very common and people submit PDFs with this all the time - with no issues. Some PDF libraries make everything TrueType (CID)/Identity-H whether it needs it or not, and those PDFs are submitted, and printed everyday.

So there is no issue with the fonts. And there is no issue with this PDF (but still the full PDF could be corrupted). The issue appears to be your printer.

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Thank you again for your kind help! Appreciate it.

It’s probably one of my client’s printer services that has an old RIP or something.

I did try to convert Open Sans from TTF of OTF using an online converter, and then this test document showed “Fonts: no errors” in preflight. None of that “font name is not unique (22 matches)” business…

I do worry that converting fonts may introduce other problems. It’s a large client so I wouldn’t want to start spreading dodgy home-fixed fonts around. What do you think? Or shall I tell them to change this one printer service : )

Best,

Fredrik

From: kenmcd @.> Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2022 20:54 To: googlefonts/opensans @.> Cc: Fronabulax @.>; Mention @.> Subject: Re: [googlefonts/opensans] OpenSans OTF version? (Issue #47)

ad-ttfx1.pdf https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/files/8264955/ad-ttfx1.pdf

There is nothing wrong with that PDF. No structural errors, and the encoding is fine. Most of the Open Sans text is encoded as TrueType/WinAnsiEncoding. There is one line which is encoded as TrueType (CID)/Identity-H and that is:

“Bistros” till finaste “Lyx” i samarbete med Svenska

That is because the curly quotes are not in WinAnsiEncoding. TrueType (CID)/Identity-H is very common and people submit PDFs with this all the time - with no issues. Some PDF libraries make everything TrueType (CID)/Identity-H whether it needs it or not, and those PDFs are submitted, and printed everyday.

So there is no issue with the fonts. And there is no issue with this PDF (but still the full PDF could be corrupted). But, the issue appears to be your printer.

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/googlefonts/opensans/issues/47#issuecomment-1069555621 , or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AYEDQ7DEXXI6WIDLU4CNHQDVAI36JANCNFSM5QGY4NQQ . Triage notifications on the go with GitHub Mobile for iOS https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1477376905?ct=notification-email&mt=8&pt=524675 or Android https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.github.android&referrer=utm_campaign%3Dnotification-email%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgithub . You are receiving this because you were mentioned. https://github.com/notifications/beacon/AYEDQ7FCZPXCQ7YACGWPICDVAI36JA5CNFSM5QGY4NQ2YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOH7AB7JI.gif Message ID: @. @.> >

kenmcd commented 2 years ago

I do worry that converting fonts may introduce other problems. It’s a large client so I wouldn’t want to start spreading dodgy home-fixed fonts around. What do you think? Or shall I tell them to change this one printer service : )

I would replace the printer because this may happen again. And I have a hard time believing there are no printers in Sweden which can print "CID" fonts. That just seems ridiculous as "CID fonts" have been a part of the PDF spec for many, many years. My guess is the printer has very antiquated equipment and is just making silly excuses.

Attached are some Open Sans OTF fonts. This is an extended version created by another designer (Bhikkhu Pesala) who added many characters/glyphs, and many OpenType features. Unfortunately the names were broken at the same time so the fonts did not work properly in LibreOffice (or Word). I had long-ago fixed it to work properly in LibreOffice, but I could not find those fonts - so I just fixed it again. The family has been renamed to: Open Sans LO Since the family name is different you can install both versions. OpenSansLO.v1.71.(otf).zip (ZIP, 1.7 MB)

This is a work-around which should get you going for now. BUT, the real problem is the printer.

Fronabulax commented 2 years ago

Ah good tip! They sent me this:

I’m exporting from Adobe InDesign. What is CID?

Thanks

tors 10 mars 2022 kl. 19:04 skrev Cosimo Lupo @.***>:

but ours is not a "CID" font https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript_fonts#CID, it's TrueType OpenType font. Where is the "CID" coming from? Maybe it's the format the TTF gets converted to when it gets embedded in a PDF by a particular PDF distiller that you are using?

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signalwerk commented 2 years ago

@Fronabulax I think it's hard to followup with this problem without any new information. The PDF you provided us is a total valid PDF (you can check it in Acrobat with the board-tools provided by Acrobat) and the font is a valid OpenType-Font. We're pleased to help if you can provide us a detailed report what exactly the problem with the font is or how we can reproduce the problem.