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gratipay / gratipay.com

Here lieth a pioneer in open source sustainability. RIP
https://gratipay.news/the-end-cbfba8f50981
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pay out via Trans-pay #417

Closed nraoTF closed 7 years ago

nraoTF commented 11 years ago

Original: Direct bank Payout into 100 countries

I was invited by Jareau Wade to join this forum. We currently provide our payout facility to a large marketplace company out of silicon valley and I can confidently say that we are the only company in the world who can resolve this forums issue on payouts.

You can have you company connect into us through an API and we provide payout capability into any bank account into over 100 countries within 24 hours. You don't have to look at rudimentary firms like Payoneer or Bitpay our platform is single plugin and robust.

Please let me know if you want to discuss this further on 2125183876. Thanks

Want to back this issue? Post a bounty on it! We accept bounties via Bountysource.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Thanks @nraoTF. Can you link me to your API docs or upload them on this thread?

nraoTF commented 11 years ago

Chad- sure I can send you the api- I need to understand your whole analysis- is there a way you and me can speak- we have a huge opportunity and I want to tap into it and I know that we can solve a lot of the issues addressed on this forum. Call me 212-518-3876

Best regard’s

Nagarajan Rao

(212) 518-3876 ©

From: Chad Whitacre [mailto:notifications@github.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:30 AM To: whit537/www.gittip.com Cc: Nagarajan Rao Subject: Re: [www.gittip.com] Direct bank Payout into 100 countries (#417)

Thanks @nraoTF https://github.com/nraoTF . Can you link me to your API docs or upload them on this thread?

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/whit537/www.gittip.com/issues/417#issuecomment-11528344 .

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chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Just gave @nraoTF a call, hoping to have a conversation here this afternoon.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Is this the right website to be looking at here?

http://www.tfpayments.com/

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Looks like it's a product of ThoughtFocus:

http://www.thoughtfocus.com/products.html

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Not seeing payouts to bank accounts in 100 countries on the tfpayments.com site. Will be interested to hear about that. Also interested in hearing about other successful deployments.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Hmmm ... actually, @sigmavirus24 dug up http://trans-pay.com/ over on #126.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Yeah, Trans-Pay is in the ballpark:

Corporate's can use Trans-Pay for the following:

  • Low value mass disbursements of funds
  • Direct to bank account payments in local currency
  • Alternative to Swift
  • Quick delivery of funds
  • Real-time FX quotes

http://trans-pay.com/benefits.html

sigmavirus24 commented 11 years ago

Forgot I had found that. I thought you were referencing Gumroad's payout provider.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Still not sure who Gumroad uses. Just spent over an hour on the phone with @nraoTF, however. We had a great conversation! They've been building an in-house global payments network for 22 years for Trans-Fast, a retail money-moving platform specializing in non-Western countries (they're especially big in the Philippines). Now @nraoTF is tasked with developing a wholesale business unit called Trans-Pay and is looking to make connections in the Silicon Valley scene.

Trans-Pay is legit. They've been building relationships with multiple banks in many countries for over two decades. They pride themselves on expertise and quality in global bank deposits. They're apparently able to clear same day or next day in over 80 countries in local currency with no hidden fees.

It sounds like Gittip would be able to offer payouts for $10 each. This is significantly higher than the $0.30 we can charge for U.S. transactions.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

@nraoTF A few more questions:

  1. What's the exchange rate?
  2. What are the countries and currencies you support?
  3. Do you provide a fallback to SWIFT or would I be on my own there?
  4. Is there a testing/development sandbox for the API?
  5. Is there a web-based dashboard for managing transactions and my account?
  6. Could I see those API docs?

Thanks! :)

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Also, is there a process for recalling a payment in the case of fraud? Here's the details of Gittip's first brush with fraud a couple months ago. We had people inject stolen money into the system, some of which was siphoned out to fraudulent bank accounts and some to innocent bystanders. Can we pull the money back into Gittip to cover the refunds Gittip makes to the stolen credit cards?

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

@nraoTF FYI, I'm tracking Gittip's decision over here. I believe you're already watching that thread. If you would, though, let's keep our conversation re: Trans-Pay on this thread. Thanks. :)

nraoTF commented 11 years ago

Sure- Thanks

Best regard’s

Nagarajan Rao

(212) 518-3876 ©

From: Chad Whitacre [mailto:notifications@github.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 7:58 AM To: whit537/www.gittip.com Cc: Nagarajan Rao Subject: Re: [www.gittip.com] explore partnership with Trans-Pay (#417)

@nraoTF https://github.com/nraoTF FYI, I'm tracking Gittip's decision over here https://github.com/whit537/www.gittip.com/issues/126#issuecomment-11793879 . I believe you're already watching that thread. If you would, though, let's keep our conversation re: Trans-Pay on this thread. Thanks. :)

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/whit537/www.gittip.com/issues/417#issuecomment-11807057 .

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nraoTF commented 11 years ago

@nraoTF https://github.com/nraoTF A few more questions:

  1. What's the exchange rate?- Best live rates- better then bank rates as we have our own treasury team in 3 different time zones.
  2. What are the countries and currencies you support?- all the major countries and countries in latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe and Australia
  3. Do you provide a fallback to SWIFT or would I be on my own there?- No- SWIFT is not an option and will never be through our network – we are better than swift
  4. Is there a testing/development sandbox for the API?- yes
  5. Is there a web-based dashboard for managing transactions and my account?- yes
  6. Could I see those API docs?- sent

Thanks! :)

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/whit537/www.gittip.com/issues/417#issuecomment-11799255 .

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chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

@nraoTF The two main problems I'm having are:

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

(Perhaps I'm just not hearing you on the exchange rate question: are you saying your exchange rates are below mid-market? Can you say how much below?)

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

@nraoTF and I have a call scheduled for Sunday afternoon.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

I had a conversation with Nagarajan on the phone today, and we agreed together that Trans-Pay is not the right partner for Gittip at this time, given the scale of Gittip's operation and Trans-Pay's priorities. Many thanks to @nraoTF for engaging with us here on GitHub as well as in email and by phone, and all the best to Trans-Pay!

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Just had a call with @nraoTF after hearing from him again at https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/126#issuecomment-24427135. We brushed up on Gittip's needs and funding flow and talked about a potential solution where:

@nraoTF You can see some of our numbers here:

We are doing about 250 deposits per month right now (55/wk), average deposit is $36. We're doubling every four months, so let's project 1,000 to 2,000 deposits per month by the middle of next year. Let's assume half of those could be outside the U.S.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

@mvdkleijn Following up on https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/126#issuecomment-24727281 ... this is interesting timing given the effort we just went through to narrow our development focus (#1474). I just left a message w/ @nraoTF to have a conversation about timing and where things stand on our end in terms of what we're focusing on right now. I'll follow up here after that conversation.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Okay, had a phone call with @nraoTF. The story is that he is on a panel at http://www.crowdconf.com/ in a month and is interested in being able to point to Gittip as a customer from the startup world. Next steps would be:

On the one hand this seems like a good opportunity to finally make some headway on #126. I hesitate for two reasons:

I'm leaning against pursuing this opportunity at this time.

colindean commented 11 years ago

Gittip should not be concerned with KYC compliance. :-1:

Maybe there's a tiny but growing market for a third-party KYC compliance firm? I'm sure the Bitcoin world would love being able to farm that out.

mvdkleijn commented 11 years ago

All in all, I'd say: let's not do this.

Gittip should not become responsible for AML and KYC, certainly not until we're bigger. Balanced does both. just out of curiosity: does MangoPay?

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

I've received the batch FTP documentation and customer application from @nraoTF.

I was trying to think this morning about whether we could do this as a pilot project, limit it to a handful of accounts just to understand the process better. It occurs to me that in addition to an increased AML/KYC burden, we're also talking about storing bank account details in our database. My understanding is that PCI is a requirement of credit card companies. Does PCI apply to bank account details? Even if it doesn't, shouldn't we act like it does? Storing bank account details in our database is a second way that this would seem to expose us to significant risk.

chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

@nraoTF Can you clarify these for us?

mvdkleijn commented 11 years ago

Does PCI apply to bank account details? Even if it doesn't, shouldn't we act like it does?

Don't know, but yes we should. Storing bank account details is (depending on location of bank account owner) a lesser security problem, but its still sensitive information.

nraoTF commented 11 years ago

Transpay is responsible for AML while sending the transaction out to the receiver. You do not have KYC responsibility on the receiver from a regulatory standpoint but it is always good to know who your receivers are.

I don’t know what you mean entirely here – from a payout perspective you don’t want your users entering their bank account details every time they withdraw funds from their gittip account so you will need to furnish us with the data so onward transfer can take place seamlessly. There is no regulation on you storing customer bank account details.

Also, PCI compliance is part of credit/debit acquiring- companies like balanced are PCI complaint- Gittip does not need to be pci complaint unless you become an acquirer like balanced.

—

From: Chad Whitacre [mailto:notifications@github.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 11:37 AM To: gittip/www.gittip.com Cc: Nagarajan Rao Subject: Re: [www.gittip.com] explore partnership with Trans-Pay (#417)

@nraoTF https://github.com/nraoTF Can you clarify these for us?

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chadwhitacre commented 11 years ago

Transpay is responsible for AML while sending the transaction out to the receiver. You do not have KYC responsibility on the receiver from a regulatory standpoint but it is always good to know who your receivers are.

Cool, thanks.

I don’t know what you mean entirely here – from a payout perspective you don’t want your users entering their bank account details every time they withdraw funds from their gittip account so you will need to furnish us with the data so onward transfer can take place seamlessly. There is no regulation on you storing customer bank account details.

With Balanced, Balanced stores our customers' bank account details in Balanced's database, and Gittip gets a token from Balanced that we store in Gittip's database and use when we make API calls to Balanced to initiate bank transactions with our customers.

What I'm hearing is that with Trans-Pay we will need to store bank account details in the Gittip database for users for whom we're using Trans-Pay to pay out.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I'm raising this ticket to an IRQ. This is a perishable opportunity to make significant progress on #126, our highest-demand ticket. Mass Pay is the alternative we're currently developing (#943), but we know we don't want Mass Pay to be our long-term solution. We would be irresponsible not to take advantage of this opportunity to go deeper with Trans-Pay.

I propose that we run a pilot project with Trans-Pay, within the timeframe that @nraoTF is looking for: he has a conference on October 22, which gives us 3½ weeks.

Here's what I envision for a pilot project:

Very next step however is to go through the paperwork with Trans-Pay and do a single FTP batch upload to test the system once (we'll move a few cents between New Alliance and Ally, or something like that).

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Just sent the following, with attachments, to @nraoTF:

Rao,

Here is the executed NDA as well as the application (with supporting documents). Let me know what else you need from me to approve our application.

For the October 22 target, my goal would be to have a pilot project off the ground with a couple dozen payees. Can we think in terms of Canada, UK, Australia, and Germany for this initial launch? Let's discuss further on the GitHub ticket:

https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/417

Looking forward to running our first test batch! :-)

chad

Chad Whitacre, Founder, Gittip https://www.gittip.com/ https://twitter.com/whit537 chad@zetaweb.com +1-412-925-4220 (cell)

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@nraoTF The NDA states that "Discloser's Information does not include any information Discloser in writing authorizes Recipient to disclose without restriction."

  1. Do I have your authorization to publish the source code of the software that Gittip uses to interact with Trans-Pay's systems?
  2. Do I have your authorization to publish Trans-Pay's API documentation?

Number 1 is a hard requirement for Gittip. Number 2 would make things easier for Gittip.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I followed up and left a voicemail with @nraoTF letting him know the ball is in his court! :-)

:basketball:

mvdkleijn commented 10 years ago

Update: we have a deadline of 14 days left on this ticket. If @nraoTF doesn't follow up soon, we won't make the deadline for his conference. (October 22nd)

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Had a call with @nraoTF and his head of compliance this morning. They asked for a description of Gittip's settlement flow with reference to information collected on both senders and receivers. I wrote and emailed them a PDF of this document:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C2Jw03F7e7FkAMTbwbMpSiBwArkCQ-YGr1BYvE8g0ns/edit?pli=1

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Next steps are to go back and forth with compliance to make sure they are comfortable with our model and to determine what additional info we need to collect or actions we need to take.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

From @nraoTF, forwarding a response from his colleague in compliance:

From a business standpoint I am keen on allowing Gittip becoming our client. As you know your business really acts like a P2P engine and as you know this is a highly regulated space. Keeping that in mind please see the response below. The below additions would be mandatory to collect from the “Sender” before it gets parsed by Gittip for onward payment to the “receiver”. Let me know if this can be collected from your users before they decide to send these tips out. I know you had batched us in with all your ongoing projects due to my request for a reference for the conference but I have to satisfy compliance before moving forward.

In any case- let us discuss the next steps and if it makes sense for you. Thanks

Mr. Rao, Sorry for the delay but I gave things further thought with regard to the customer we are considering. I have to tell you that I am uncomfortable in pursuing it unless greater transparency is given to the transactions. In the least, I consider we should adhere to standards already established by our ecommerce facilities. The following are the minimum details that, I consider, would ensure minimum safety:

  • First Name
  • Last Name
  • Phone Number
  • Email Address
  • Home Address
  • Country of Residence
  • State/Province
  • Zip Code
  • City
  • Date of birth
  • Nationality
  • Security question 1
  • Security question 2

For customers sending over $1000 we collect their state id or passport via online scan.

My reply:

Thanks for the reply. Two clarifying questions:

  1. The minimum details pertain to the customers we would be paying to via Trans-Fast, yes?
  2. The $1000 limit would be cumulative, yes? So if I am paying a customer $200 per week, then after the fifth week they would be required to provide the additional documentation, yes?

Assuming I understand correctly then I don't see any major issues here.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

And then my follow-up ...

  1. The minimum details pertain to the customers we would be paying to via Trans-Fast, yes?

Hmmm ... as I reread, it sounds like I've misunderstood, and the requirements given are for the sender, yes? Do the same requirements apply to the receiver?

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

It's impractical for us to collect this additional information for people who are already in the system as senders. We don't have their email address so we can't get in touch with them. The best we can do is flag them when they login next time and prompt them to update their info.

This will take some work but it looks roughly doable.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Not sure about the Oct 22 deadline though. :-/

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I'm dropping the IRQ on this. I don't see us meeting compliance requirements in the next week. :-/

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@nraoTF:

Chad, just saw your message on Github. I understand your predicament and I am fine with the deadline; Compliance has taken a stand and wants these fields added before they feel comfortable as ultimately it is a regulatory concern. I believe that if you can implement these additions you will be far ahead then many of your peers and competitors in this space and this will honestly make your proposition really strong as you grow.

@whit537:

Thanks Rao. I appreciate the solid feedback. Let's touch base again down the road as I'm able to dedicate resources to adding these fields.

Celinelz commented 10 years ago

Hi Chad, just a quick not to let you know, we are about to launch Mangopay v2 for GBP. So it would be interesting that you take a contact with our sales team (sales@mangopay.com - Ask to test the V2 for GBP), to open you an account on the beta version of mangopay v2 (We already have couples of clients testing it). Please note that you need to have a european company to contract with us. You can of course start the implementation of Mangopay while you create the company. Céline.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Thanks @Celinelz! I've copied your comment over to #891. :-)

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Hey @nraoTF, are you familiar with Jumio? They have a product called NetVerify for real-time id verification. If we integrate Jumio, would that be sufficient from a KYC perspective to move forward with Trans-Pay?

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@nraoTF Here's the link: https://www.jumio.com/netverify/.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Just had a phone call with @nraoTF to dust this off in light of #2449. I'm going to review the compliance recommendations we got from them last time around, and @nraoTF is going to put me in touch with a compliance officer to pick up the conversation.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Based on our previous conversation it sounds like the next step on our end is to improve our identity UI and workflow. Below $1000 (per transaction? per year? per giver-receiver pair?) we need the following for the sender:

Above $1,000 we need state id/passport, and that's where Jumio (#2449) would come in.

chrisdev commented 10 years ago

:+1: this is cool Was there not a ticket about being able to accept tips in native currency? This was dependent on balanced making progress on this

chadwhitacre commented 9 years ago

Heard from @nraoTF and just got off the phone. Their new site:

https://www.transpay.global/

I'm expecting an application in email.