track Bountysource

[chadwhitacre]

Bountysource started directly competing with us last spring, with the release of "Salt." It's been growing steadily since. Before, Bountysource just did the bounty model. But, while we've had the wind totally knocked out of us by the Balanced shutdown, Bountysource has been gradually pivoting into the spot we once occupied alone: a "recurring crowdfunding platform to help developers earn their own salary from open-source."

Patreon swooped in and picked up content creators before we could blink.

Assembly showed up with an innovative revenue-sharing model, but eventually gave up.

This is the third time I've felt a fire in my belly, and I've come to recognize it as the :fire: of competition. If we ignore Bountysource, they're going to eat our lunch. Simple as that. In fact, it may already be too late. I don't know how this is supposed to work, because I've never gotten mixed up in serious business competition before. But ... when in doubt, make a ticket! :-)

[chadwhitacre]

!m @mattbk @tshepang

Perhaps! :-)

[webmaven]

Two-sided marketplaces that have strong network effects tend to be winner-take-most, with competitors relegated to small niches.

OTOH, one of the reasons for that (as the size of the market grows, the market maker gains more pricing power on the spread between willing buyer and willing seller prices) doesn't apply to Gratipay.

[mattbk]

@webmaven, interesting points.

The below are my personal thoughts. I'm totally in favor of people getting paid for work, but this explains why I'm not all excited to win by destroying everyone else ;-)

My motivations are not everyone's but there's a point at which growth for the sake of growth becomes largesse rather than necessity. If Gratipay becomes sustainable (and stays that way) and can pay development team members a salary commensurate with their time commitment and skills, I'd consider it successful without it needing to be the big fish.

This is similar to another business I'm a part of that simply exists because myself and others involved think it's good for us and for the community. It sustains itself and can pay a few people part-time salaries, but it's not making us oodles of money and that's not the point.

[chadwhitacre]

The more people donating to other people for getting things done, the better--it opens up a world where more and more people can do what they love.

---

I'm totally in favor of people getting paid for work[.]

Yeah, I mean, ultimately whatever happens here is good for users. I think some healthy competition is okay, because without it I know I at least can end up resting on my laurels. :-)

[chadwhitacre]

It's funny, @mattbk: I expected you to be all gung-ho about competing, since you race. And yet here you're the one being all hippy-dippy. ;-)

[mattbk]

I've been racing for over half my life now, so I've mellowed a bit. It's not so much about beating other people down as helping elevate other people to higher efforts.

[chadwhitacre]

!m @mattbk

[chadwhitacre]

How long until Patreon adds a "Software" category? :disappointed: :fallen_leaf:

[chadwhitacre]

(P.S. An interesting use of "patrons" ~six months before Patreon. :-)

[chadwhitacre]

Bountysource opened up about five months ago. I heard from @rappo in private email this past week, and we're scheduling a call in the next week or two to discuss potential implications here.

:scream_cat: :flushed: :open_mouth:

[chadwhitacre]

Call scheduled for tomorrow at 18:00 UTC. Gonna do a private call with a written summary after the fact.

[chadwhitacre]

We've got a call tomorrow with @Bountysource to catch up on how our respective efforts to fund FLOSS are unfolding: https://github.com/gratipay/inside.gratipay.com/issues/316#issuecomment-204751859.

https://twitter.com/Gratipay/status/717098156278824960

[gravyboat]

Another interesting factor that isn't included here is the multiple methods which are used to 'cash out' at Bountysource. Per their FAQ they currently support: Check, Paypal, Bitcoin, or Ripple. @whit537 (or whoever is running the Gratipay Twitter) and I have discussed the importance of multiple ways to pay people out so this isn't something new, just something to note.

[chadwhitacre]

Okay! Here's my summary of the call, which I vetted w/ @rappo so I'm including his responses:

Dave,

Thanks for the call. I appreciate the face-to-face interaction and the well-intentioned goading, as well as the invitation to join forces. Thank you. :-)

Here's what I plan to post:

---

We had a friendly call, which lasted almost 1.5 hours. @rappo rightly notes that Gratipay's numbers have been flat for a year, while Salt has shown steady growth. Gratipay needs to up its game if we want to stay competitive—and if/when we're ready to cede, we're all welcome to work for Bountysource. :-)

Some tidbits:

• They are going the Liberapay route re: #118 (common carrier, trying to avoid politics)
• They are agnostic about how teams split funds (there are some on-site tools, more complex scenarios happen off-site).
• All members of all teams on Bountysource are contractors of Bountysource, Inc. (they're a "crowdsourced software company", not a payment processor).
• They are keeping the 10% hard fee (despite having their own Salt campaign).
• "Except for salaries, we are profitable."
• They are now open-source, and are planning to make a push soon to build the community around Bountysource itself.
• Their investors are on-board with this new direction.

Here's @rappo's response:

Chad,

Likewise, great chatting with you and catching up. I'm serious when I say I'm rooting for Gratipay. We both have the same goals and we make each other stronger by innovating and growing :).

Notes look good! Two things:

They are going the Liberapay route re: #118 (common carrier, trying to avoid politics)

I haven't read all of #118 so I'm not sure the full extent of what this implies, but it should go without saying that all projects need to be open source and that they must not be illegal in nature. Eg the software behind the Silk Road? totally fine. A campaign to run a darknet market on Tor? not cool.

They are keeping the 10% hard fee (despite having their own Salt campaign).

I would clarify this as "For now, they are...". I'm open to discussion on changing the fee structure (or removing it completely if it seems feasible), but we have much bigger fish to fry right now.

[nobodxbodon]

Though I didn't do any survey myself, I feel gratipay doesn't have its due reputation in OS world yet. Gratipay is still the most open one in the market as far as I see, but I think that part is far from being highlighted and taken full advantage of, especially when marketing and propagation. For example, some breakdown of the income & costs, more technical articles about the details of running the site, etc. More exposure and connections may go a long way.

[nobodxbodon]

BTW BountySource seems to support closed-source project. I wonder if Gratipay also does?

[chadwhitacre]

@nobodxbodon We don't right now, but I suppose we will very soon underneath https://github.com/gratipay/inside.gratipay.com/issues/432.

[chadwhitacre]

I feel gratipay doesn't have its due reputation in OS world yet.

Want to help us with marketing? How can we put you to work? :-)

[rappo]

@nobodxbodon,

BTW BountySource seems to support closed-source project. I wonder if Gratipay also does?

We (Bountysource) do not allow closed-source projects on our platform. If you know of any that have snuck on please let me know and I'll boot them right off. Is Gratipay planning to support closed source projects?

[chadwhitacre]

Is Gratipay planning to support closed source projects?

We're in the process of relaxing our review process, which as it's headed would probably allow for closed-source projects, yes.

[nobodxbodon]

I feel gratipay doesn't have its due reputation in OS world yet.

Want to help us with marketing? How can we put you to work? :-)

@whit537 Depending on the current marketing plan, I might help with writing tech articles to some simple code if needed. Still I'm quite new to the project and I'm realizing most of my thoughts have already been brought up more or less before, so it may be better to start with small stuff first and see how it's going.

Besides, BountySource seem to take different strategy with Gratipay, as it allows more creating bounty freely (based on issue), without taking trouble of finding the right team to contribute to. Similarly, anyone can take the bounty without creating a team first, IIUC. IMO it lowers the entry fee and is more appealing in first sight.

[chadwhitacre]

it may be better to start with small stuff first and see how it's going.

👍

Wanna create an onboarding ticket for yourself to discuss further? :-)

[mattbk]

Is Gratipay planning to support closed source projects?

We're in the process of relaxing our review process, which as it's headed would probably allow for closed-source projects, yes.

Specifically, three levels of closed company will be possible when TWYW returns: https://github.com/gratipay/inside.gratipay.com/issues/432#issuecomment-243245667

[strypey]

Great to learn more about the nuts and bolts of both Gratipay and BountySource. Are both groups aware of this useful guide to getting paid for free code dev? Probably a good idea to keep this user informed of any changes to your platforms that may impact its accuracy (pull requests!)

BTW @mattbk loved your quote about sporting competition so much I quoted you on GNU Social :)

[techtonik]

@nayafia works with GitHub and other corporate world with the same issue, so we are aware of the work of each other. We could use more help from lawyers to build up an open system that could transparently calculate tax and make appropriate payments. This means open access to law (which is absent in my country, and this is why I am not coding anything - without reference and open tracking it is useless).

[chadwhitacre]

Bountysource is looking to bring new core contributors to the team. This is a great opportunity for someone to take the reigns on an amazing project and help make a difference within the open-source community.

Before you get worried, please be assured that Bountysource isn’t going anywhere. I (rappo) will continue to lead and administrate Bountysource. Warren will step aside as lead developer as soon a new core member can take his place. Warren will stay on to provide occasional technical expertise, as well as handle some of the behind-the-scenes business-y stuff with me.

https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/bountysource/updates/5-bountysource-is-searching-for-developers-to-join-our-core-team

[rappo]

@whit537, join us! :)