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gratipay / inside.gratipay.com

Here lieth a pioneer in open source sustainability. RIP
https://gratipay.news/the-end-cbfba8f50981
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rename Gittip to ... Gratipay! #73

Closed chadwhitacre closed 10 years ago

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

It's time. See https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/138 for our first go-round on renaming, nearly two years ago.

Task List

Internal:

Customer Support:

Marketing:

Hosting & Product:

Legal:

Financial:

Afterwards:

Gittip has been a serviceable name for the past two years, but it's not ideal. For most people, Gittip doesn't have any relevant natural associations; it doesn't suggest anything about our mission. It's hard to spell, hard to pronounce, and hard to remember. For people who know what git and GitHub are the situation is worse, because Gittip puts us in a box we don't want to be in. We're building a mass-market product, not something for a tech niche. And for pete's sake, my own kids confuse Gittip with GitHub.

Benefits of Gratipay:

Drawbacks of Gratipay:

If you have a really compelling reason to veto Gratipay, please share it ("In {Chinese,Arabic,Russian} that word is a heinous insult!"). Otherwise, let it sink in. We've been building Gittip for two years. Now let's build Gratipay! :D

screen shot 2014-07-01 at 12 22 50 pm

wilkie commented 10 years ago

I was just curious as to why this name was considered best. A market study is a good idea. Although it is a tad confusing why it would be done after a name has already been decided. If you are going through the effort already, testing several names with the non-tech community seems apt. I admit, this comment might only be worth 2 cents.

chrisdev commented 10 years ago

@wilkie technically, a better approach would be a focus group. In any case whenever someone pushes for a market study for something like this ("gratipay" v "gitip") i'm reminded of this quote from S. Jobs

That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.

lyndsysimon commented 10 years ago

re: @whit537

I really disagree with changing the name purely to get away from "The Gittip Incident".

Agreed. The way I'm approaching this is that changing our name is a momentum buster, so since our momentum is already busted we might as well take advantage of the opportunity and get the name change out of the way while we're here in momentum-busted-land.

I think your reasoning here is sound, but it's only taking into consideration our needs. Being that I think it's too early to try and re-engage in that conversation, if we decide to continue we should at least make sure that this reasoning is made clear and explicitly stated. I also believe that this will be perceived in a very negative light by some people.

How soon is too soon?

Good question. I don't know when or if it will ever be appropriate. The only answer I can give is "when all re:parties are willing to sit down and work together." That may happen tomorrow or it may never happen.

re: @ethangj

I think Gratipay is clearly a more consumer-friendly name. GitTip is always going to be boxed-in to a technical crowd. I don't have a lot of deep philosophical thoughts on the issue overall, but in terms of trying to push for a wider donor base GitTip is going to be a liability in comparison to something more comprehensible.

I agree.

lyndsysimon commented 10 years ago

@wilkie

I was just curious as to why this name was considered best. A market study is a good idea. Although it is a tad confusing why it would be done after a name has already been decided. If you are going through the effort already, testing several names with the non-tech community seems apt.

I'm of the opinion that if Chad wants to change the name to Gratipay, we should do it. I trust Chad to make the decision.

If we step back and re-evaluated what name to go with, a focus group would be a great idea. If the question is "should we stay Gittip or should we call ourselves Gratipay, I don't think there's a real need for it.

I admit, this comment might only be worth 2 cents.

I'm glad you shared it, and hope you continue to do so. We can't build a community unless people feel comfortable sharing their views, and people aren't going to feel comfortable sharing their views if no one else is doing it.

ethangj commented 10 years ago

Its not particularly my place to speak, but I know startups can get bogged down with name anxiety for a crazy amount of time, and I have to imagine vaguely headless ones like this can have it even worse. I feel like just ripping the band aid off and trusting it was the right move is the only way to definitively decide things like this, sometimes.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@ethangj It's your place to speak as much as anyone else's! :-) Check out https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/138 for our last go-round on naming. Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiit was a really big bikeshed. O.o

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

We are changing our name to Gratipay.

Appropriate topics for discussion now include:

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Re: timing. We opened https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/138 on July 12, 2012. Two years will be a week from this Saturday. We closed https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/issues/54 a day before two years. I propose that we make the rename official on July 11, 2014—next Friday.

clone1018 commented 10 years ago

+1 for that date. I'll try and make myself available.

myusuf3 commented 10 years ago

I am glad everyone has come to a decision here! Huzzah! I know @whit537 highlighted a bunch of reason for the needed name change and a few people mentioned it would be associated with the noise from last month which is a shame and lost opportunity IMO.

I think announcing the name is a big move and would hate it have to be tarnished with the noise from last month. Maybe wait till Gittip/Gratipay has had some more positive successes and allow the community move past the noise from last month removed from our collective conscience so to speak.

I propose we we shift the name change till after we can announce some positive changes just spitballing here:

Then once the community is more focused on positive and great work being done by the Gittip/Gratipay team announce the new name change.

This is a name change but there is absolutely no rush to change it Gittip has served you well and I think it can handle the job for a couple more months.

Just my thoughts.

xoxo :lipstick:

patcon commented 10 years ago

:+1: for July 11, but let's be careful to be very explicit on motivations in the announcement post. We know our rationale, but if we're not clear, perception is reality blah blah blah :)

mvdkleijn commented 10 years ago

I know the opinions... the "votes" are in... :-1: for the gratipay name though. :+1: for the libre.tips name.

rummik commented 10 years ago

On libre.tips: https://www.youtube.com/embed/5pOxlazS3zs?start=181&end=187&version=3

I'm :-1: on libre.tips. I'm not really really fond of 'Gratipay' as a name either, but it gets the point across much better than the name 'Gittip', which is very beneficial, so I'm in favor of it for that reason.

dsernst commented 10 years ago

Gratipay is clear, and easy to spell, but doesn't exactly inspire confidence phonetically. Saying it outloud reminds me of catty: "deliberately hurtful in one's remarks; spiteful."

Apologies for stirring the pot after you already feel attached to it...

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

FTR, I've started replacing discussion of alternate names with links to [www.bikeshed.com]. :-)

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

We're not going to pull this off by this Friday. Aaaaaaand I'm on vacation next week. So the earliest to do this would be the week of the 20th.

seanlinsley commented 10 years ago

FTR, I've started replacing discussion of alternate names with links to www.bikeshed.com. :-)

Editing other people's comments? That's not an okay thing to do.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Editing other people's comments? That's not an okay thing to do.

I've decided to be a bit more heavy-handed than usual on this ticket, because, as I've indicated several times, I'm not going to let this turn into a bikeshed. It's not okay to discuss other names on this ticket.

dsernst commented 10 years ago

Heavy handed is one thing... but you're describing censorship. Think of the long-term consequences.

On Wednesday, July 9, 2014, Chad Whitacre notifications@github.com wrote:

Editing other people's comments? That's not an okay thing to do.

I've decided to be a bit more heavy-handed than usual on this ticket, because, as I've indicated https://github.com/gittip/building.gittip.com/issues/73#issuecomment-47704139 several https://github.com/gittip/building.gittip.com/issues/73#issuecomment-47704523 times https://github.com/gittip/building.gittip.com/issues/73#issuecomment-47772196, I don't want this to turn into a bikeshed. It's not okay to discuss other names on this ticket.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/gittip/building.gittip.com/issues/73#issuecomment-48518987 .

tshepang commented 10 years ago

@dsernst is right; I don't think you have done something like this before @whit537; it' just not good, especially given you are the most visible member of the Open Company initiative. I don't like how you approached this whole re-naming issue, but you really are going too far with editing other's Comments, which sucks even more given that we can't see Github comment history. Please stop. Maybe take a few days (weeks?) off or something and stop damaging the goodwill you've worked so hard to build.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I've also heard from @seanlinsley privately that he's not okay with my editing comments.

I edited two comments: one, two. Sorry for doing that. I've edited them back to read "libre.tips" instead of [www.bikeshed.com].

dsernst commented 10 years ago

Cool, thank you for taking the feedback well.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I'm happy to discuss Gratipay as a name. I'm happy to answer questions about and explain my decision to move forward with Gratipay. I'm happy to entertain reasons why Gratipay may not be a good name.

I'm not interested in hearing alternate name suggestions on this ticket. If you think Gratipay should have a different name, please start a separate ticket to discuss that.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@dsernst I did also originally edit your comment, changing the "caddy" link to www.bikeshed.com. I quickly changed it back because you were in fact discussing Gratipay as a name, and I'm fine with that on this issue. I tried to reproduce the exact link you had before but I don't think I was quite able to. Sorry.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

IRC

tshepang commented 10 years ago

BTW, of the few people I've asked (~6), more had preference for Gratipay, as compared to Gittip. I was surprised.

dsernst commented 10 years ago

My 1st reaction, "Ehhhhhhhh. Are you sure?"

Sitting on it more, "Well if that's what @whit537 wants..."

Now, "Don't do it!!!!"

I have much more to say on all this. Give me a chance to organize my thoughts, please! :smile:

I brought it up with my Jazz pianist roommate. Perfect target market, right? This is a classy guy who puts on events with names like _An Evening of Solos and Duos_.

I approached it gradually. He was so onboard with the idea of being able to pay people weekly "just cause".

"Cause you're grateful for what they do", I said.

He said, "hell yeah! Cause you want to support their vibe." Within 60 seconds he came up with three people he would give to.

And then I dropped the bomb: "this already exists."

"Really!?"

"It's called Gratipay".

Looong silence. It was sinking in.

At least it's memorable, I thought.

Finally, he says, "'Gratipay'? I don't like it. It doesn't seem right."

"I don't want to offend, but it sounds crappy. Or like sloppy joes. Some really gross food from the school cafetaria."

"It just sounds silly. Why have a silly name for something so cool? This is serious! This is a serious website! People are doing serious things!"

"Gratty? Ugghh."

"It's already got all the baggage of 'pay', and then you want to tack 'gratty' onto it as well?"

"It's pretty bad."

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@dsernst Thanks for the feedback! How did you pronounce it? Did you say "Gratty pay"? I've been pronouncing it like "gratitude," with a short "i" (not "gratty tude"). Gratitude, Gratipay.

Would you be up for running it by more people? The method I've been employing is to show someone the word Gratipay and ask "What's the name of this company?" and then "What does this company do, judging from their name? No wrong answers ..."

I put up just the name at www.gratipay.com if you (or anyone else) want to load that on your phone to show people. I usually load that full-screen on my laptop when I run it by people.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Call w/ @dsernst (see also IRC). Summary is that I'm still planning to move forward with Gratipay (pronounced like "gratitude"! :smile_cat:), possibly as soon as we land the payday rewrite. If @dsernst or anyone else would like to propose an alternate name, here's what you need to do:

  1. Secure the name in at least {com,net,org,co}, Twitter, Facebook, Google+, GitHub, and Freenode.
  2. Create a separate ticket with your proposal.
dsernst commented 10 years ago

Feeling is still don't love it, but understand the need to keep moving forward. Glad to have had the call to talk about it.

In the spirit of sharing market research:

Asked Noah about Gratipay name: Q: "How is pronounced?" showing the logo mockup. A: "GRAT-eh-pay". The way @whit537 intends.

Q: What does it mean to you? A: "Is it like Gratitude?"

Asked Florian (a native french speaker): Q: "How is this pronounced?" showing the logo mockup A: "Grat-EE-pay".

Q: What does it mean to you? A: "pay less? free pay? in french, gratis means free, so that's what I think of. Why is there the word 'pay' inside? Give it a french name, people will love it."

dsernst commented 10 years ago

Still don't have an alternative that meets all these req's. My favorites are something simple, along the lines of "Thanks" or "Karma" ("what goes around comes around"). But of course these have their own issues.

In the meantime, I've found myself fixating on the "pay" part of "Gratipay". Aside from the less-than-appealing connotation (payment is often demanded), I notice that it's from the giver's perspective, not the receiver's.

Not sure if that's good or bad in itself, but it does seem to contradict some of the branding discussions re homepage redesign & elsewhere.

Frustrated that there isn't an easy answer here. Hope these comments are still welcome.

On Friday, August 8, 2014, Chad Whitacre notifications@github.com wrote:

Call https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTCz2zT0a58 w/ @dsernst https://github.com/dsernst (see also IRC https://botbot.me/freenode/gittip/2014-08-08/?msg=19390964&page=2). Summary is that I'm still planning to move forward with Gratipay (pronounced like "gratitude"! [image: :smile_cat:]), possibly as soon as we land the payday rewrite https://github.com/gittip/www.gittip.com/pull/2579. If @dsernst https://github.com/dsernst or anyone else would like to propose an alternate name, here's what you need to do:

  1. Secure the name in at least {com,net,org,co}, Twitter, Facebook, Google+, GitHub, and Freenode.
  2. Create a separate ticket with your proposal.

— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/gittip/building.gittip.com/issues/73#issuecomment-51646788 .

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@oakes @dmk246 and @weallhave24hrs are all champing at the bit for this to land so they can start marketing.

weallhave24hrs commented 10 years ago

Q: what does this word make you think of or what do you think it means "Gratipay" ( no wrong answer) A : Gratitude pay. Like a donation. No assigned price. A: A contribution to a deserving person A: To me it makes me think of gratuity payment but that could be because I was a waitress for so long Q: Same question but with word "gittip" A: Gittip makes me think get tip

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

!m @weallhave24hrs

webmaven commented 10 years ago

Since the July 11th deadline has come and gone, is there a new ETA?

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@webmaven Well, the two scenarios are: (a) as soon as possible, or (b) after we start growing again. The case for (b) is made by @myusuf3 above. The push for (a) is driven primarily by @weallhave24hrs and @oakes, who are ready to start promoting Gratipay in new verticals: local news and indie gaming, respectively.

There's a bit of chicken and egg in (a), in that our next growth milestones will quite likely be in new verticals, but we want to change the name before making that push. My sense is that we're starting to get the ball rolling again with the payday rewrite and user survey last week, the funding appeal and the soft-launch of translations this week. Looking at our PRs I see that we've got some settling of the payday and i18n work happening, and then we've got the onboarding UI. We are making good progress with features and development. Do we keep going? Next steps:

  1. Shake out the bugs in payday and i18n.
  2. Land onboarding.
  3. Start revamping profiles.
chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

So do we rename to Gratipay after (1), (2), (3), or even later? I think we wait at least until we can announce i18n (1). Right? Do we get through that and then reevaluate?

tshepang commented 10 years ago

@whit537 given that your decision on the name is final, I say do it now, or after (1) at the latest

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

We've started. IRC

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I've renamed the GitHub org and the repo for the main website.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

We've started using the #gratipay channel. @Changaco is looking into redirecting IRC:

once this chan is ready we may be able to get everyone who's in the old one here by messing with chanmodes I don't know the exact modes but I've seen it done before, the principle is "add a redirect to the new chan and limit the number of users to 1"

I've requested [o__o] via web and IRC.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I'm working on getting a new SSL cert.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

@Changaco proposes that we use https://gratipay.com/ instead of https://www.gratipay.com/.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I've submitted StartSSL's "personal identity" verification. Once they clear that I will submit the "organization identity" verification. At that point we'll be able to get a new SSL cert.

chrisdev commented 10 years ago

@Changaco some arguments in favour of the www subdomain http://www.yes-www.org/why-use-www/

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Thanks @chrisdev. Here's a response to the three reasons I'm seeing there:

tshepang commented 10 years ago

They may have technical issues, but naked domains look a lot nicer; wwws are just too damn noisy.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

I think we should rename building.gittip.com to inside.gratipay.com, because inside is more inclusive of maintenance, design, legal, accounting, etc., etc.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

Facebook is asking for a legal document to support the name change, so I'm going to block on the LLC rename before changing Facebook.

chadwhitacre commented 10 years ago

We're live on [o__o]:

https://botbot.me/freenode/gratipay/