Start showing some craft and office POIs

[kocio-pl]

I think we should show not just shops and amenities, but also some objects with craft=* and office=* key. Case by case analysis is probably needed to know which we want to show and how - sometimes the same icon and/or color may be used as with already rendered POIs, but when it doesn't match, maybe generic black/brown/violet dot and label would work.

Looking at the most popular POIs from these categories:

• craft (above 1k of uses):
  • carpenter - icon needed
  • shoemaker - brown icon, probably not the same as shop=shoe
  • photographer - probably the same as shop=photo
  • electrician - brown flash icon
  • brewery - icon needed
  • tailor - icon needed, probably the same as shop=tailor
  • plumber - icon needed
  • metal_construction - icon needed
  • confectionery - maybe the same as shop=confectionery, but brown or black?
  • gardener - maybe the same as shop=garden_centre, but brown?
• office (above 5k uses):
  • company - maybe generic black dot from z>=19?
  • government - brown generic dot or government icon
  • estate_agent - icon needed, violet as shops
  • yes - generic black dot (with name)
  • insurance - icon needed
  • administrative - brown generic dot or town hall icon

[Tomasz-W]

craft=metal_constriction icon proposals:

• (screws)
• (3 i-beams)
• (4 i-beams)

I vote for 'screws'.

[Tomasz-W]

Do we have a consensus on a proper colour for craft= key? Brown seems to be the best, but on the other hand it's heavy loaded with other map features... Another thing to discuss is to add generic dot for craft= tags without an icon.

[james2432]

screws look good to me they look thick enough to be lagg bolts

[Tomasz-W]

@james2432 Gist link: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/b83cecde97e3d0351ba3c198b4836cb7

[Adamant36]

@Tomasz-W Is there a way to piggy back by off of James2432's craft PR or something to get this done? Or are we stuck waiting until he gets a new laptop? I think the craft icons are an important addition to the map and I'd be willing to do a new PR for them or finish James2432s work after I do a few other things if its possible.

[Tomasz-W]

@Adamant36 For more technical questions ask @kocio-pl , I'm an icon designer, not a coder, so unfortunately I can't help you. @kocio-pl ?

[Adamant36]

@Tomasz-W OK

[kocio-pl]

Nice to hear you want to do something with that!

Please talk with @james2432 for a start. It's always possible to just create your own PR, because they are independent and may be even competing, as long as they're not merged. But it's better to start talking and do a team work if possible.

[james2432]

Well dont copy what i've done exactly because as Paul has stated, the way I did it needs a database reimport, I need to replace craft(and remove the new column in a few files) and replace it with tags->'craft'

[kocio-pl]

This is technical detail - it would be easily visible when testing.

What I try to reach now is some simple planning: making sure who wants to do what and when.

[Tomasz-W]

Fixed, pixel aligned icons here: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/4c4febd2f19dbfd8ec201100b54946ea

[Adamant36]

@jeisenbe, I might be interested in reviving the craft PR if there's a will for it. What do you think?

[jeisenbe]

I would be in favor of a simple dot + text rendering similar to office= at z18 or z19, to start.

Specific icons for certain types could be discussed later.

[Adamant36]

That would work. It would definitely make things easier to implement. Any opinion on the color? It looked like both brown and purple were explored in the PR but there was never a decision on which color was best from what I remember.

[jeisenbe]

I think they are similar enough to offices (as places of business which are not shops) that we can try using the same color for both craft= and office=, to avoid having to create another new icon color. There were at least 3 comments in favor of this before: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-419638860, https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-419727349 and https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3126#issuecomment-420213083

(You could also try one of the new colors mentioned in #3641, for example #12a98d Lch(62,43,174) - somewhat similar to office, or #c84a74 Lch(50,54,3) - similar to shop, but this may not be necessary)

[geowas-github]

I think a different colour would be better. To me "craft" means manual (not industrial) work (e.g. painter, goldsmith, etc.) in opposite to brain work or administrational work performed in an office. Also people often can drop in here, to discuss the colour of paint, the design of a golden ring, to pick up a produce, etc. So it shares some features with shop as well. When adding a POI, I always question myself, is this POI mainly about selling (-> shop), administration (-> office) or manual work (-> craft).

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

On 3. Sep 2019, at 08:36, geowas-github notifications@github.com wrote:

When adding a POI, I always question myself, is this POI mainly about selling (-> shop), administration (-> office) or manual work (-> craft).

this system is not completely consistent with the actual data, if you look at the top 10 shop values, 3 are about services and one is unclear (yes): hairdresser, beauty and car_repair

Craft can also be combined with shops, e.g. craft=confectionary or craft=optician

[geowas-github]

On 3. Sep 2019, at 08:36, geowas-github @.***> wrote: When adding a POI, I always question myself, is this POI mainly about selling (-> shop), administration (-> office) or manual work (-> craft). this system is not completely consistent with the actual data, if you look at the top 10 shop values, 3 are about services and one is unclear (yes): hairdresser, beauty and car_repair Craft can also be combined with shops, e.g. craft=confectionary or craft=optician

Right.

[polarbearing]

I'd second jeisenbe and use office colour. All involve some labour.

[andrzej-r]

I don't mind mind using office blue either.

If this was to be more fine grained, I would prefer using either office or shop colours depending on availability of walk-in commercial services.

[kocio-pl]

This is similar problem to amenity/shop issues. It is not clear if we should blindly follow keys (shop -> violet, amenity -> brown, office -> blue) or if we should use some internal rules to make the difference. Blind key matching gives more of a tag feeling, while internal rules allow more real-object related feeling. For amenities we go with internal rules for example, for offices we go with blind match currently.

[kocio-pl]

We could use some kind of pink also, because it's free now after healthcare objects are rendered in red.

[IgorEliezer]

Please add craft=electronics_repair in the list, it renders only the housenumber:

• Uses: 3 676
• TagInfo: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=craft&value=electronics_repair
• Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7123561238

[jeisenbe]

The key craft= is not yet imported as a polygon when mapped as a closed way, so to render these features we need to request the rendering servers reload the database. There are several other changes already approved, so this could happen soon.

Someone will need to submit a PR adding craft to the list in openstreetmap-carto.lua - you can see #3786 for an example of how to do this.

It's best to first fetch and checkout the schema_changes branch, which is also the branch to which the PR needs to be merged.

[aawiseman]

Hey all, I just noticed a number of breweries I added to OSM weren't rendering and found this discussion. Personally I like @Tomasz-W 's suggestions from here https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/4c4febd2f19dbfd8ec201100b54946ea -- or maybe just a barrel for the brewery? These are often pretty large and popular venues, I think it would be worth showing on the main map.

I also add bar=yes where appropriate, if there's some objections to adding breweries in general, I wonder if that could influence rendering? Maybe if it's craft=brewery and bar=yes in conjunction then it could show a regular bar icon?

[jeisenbe]

@aawiseman - PR #4015 will need to be merged to and then we will have to organize a reload of the rendering database on the openstreetmap.org servers which render this style (and any other database users who update the style will also then need to reload their rendering database).

I hope this may be done in the next couple of months?

After that it will be possible to consider rendering features such as craft=brewery, if you are interested in submitting a PR to add the rendering.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

On 30. Jan 2020, at 01:21, Andrew Wiseman notifications@github.com wrote:

Maybe if it's craft=brewery and bar=yes in conjunction then it could show a regular bar icon?

there’s also this https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/microbrewery

[jidanni]

All I know is e.g., in iD the user types sawmi... and iD offers him sawmill, which is what he wants. He finishes his edit only to be informed by his friends a month later that they never found the sawmill he said he put on the map, and had to give up and turn back.

[HolgerJeromin]

All I know is e.g., ...

Than stop polluting this issue. Your comment will not change anything and annoy many people which are subscribed to the repository / issue.

[SomeoneElseOSM]

(for reference see the related help question at https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/73116/how-to-check-how-a-tag-renders )

A reply of "stop polluting this issue" is perhaps a little strong, especially as the very first line of the very first entry above was "I think we should show not just shops and amenities, but also some objects with craft= and office= key". I understand that https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1697#issuecomment-580048697 means that essentially it's not really possible to work on this right now, but perhaps the poster does not?

I can fully understand that repeated requests from "customers" (whether it's things like this issue or whether it's me elsewhere banging on about the unsuitability of OSM Carto for hiking routes) can be annoying the umpteenth time you've heard a particular request from different people, but perhaps a more polite response would have been "I'm sorry, but due to the technical limitations we're currently working under - the data in the database that the main OSM.org maps are rendered from - we simply can't fix this at the moment, although work (see the links from https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4015 ) is ongoing".

[jeisenbe]

It is now possible to submit a PR to render this feature. Since v5.0.0 all craft=* features will be imported as polygons when mapped as closed ways.

[TheAdventurer64]

What about craft=caterer?

[kocio-pl]

There are already multiple craft objects with usage above 2k (see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/craft#values ). I guess pink color from the old healthcare objects could work, but nobody has tested it yet. Also the icon codes from gist designed by @Tomasz-W are not accessible now, so we lack files to test them and some new ones should be created (or just reposted).

[Tomasz-W]

Also the icon codes from gist designed by @Tomasz-W are not accessible now, so we lack files to test them and some new ones should be created (or just reposted).

In case they will be needed, I can reupload it. Just contact me ;)

[kocio-pl]

Is there anybody willing to try to prepare the code?

[jeisenbe]

We still lack consensus on #3635 and it is not at all certain that there will be consensus to add specific icons for certain craft=* features.

[Adamant36]

We still lack consensus on #3635 and it is not at all certain that there will be consensus to add specific icons for certain craft=* features.

There should really be a time limit or something on it or something. Or at least intermediate alternative/options in the meantime. Heck even some kind of specific "review rendering X category of icons" issues would be better then nothing. Otherwise, there will be no incentive or will for it to be resolved. Things with it aren't going to just magically improve or be dealt with by referencing the issue every time someone wants to add a new icon either. Ultimately, rendering new things and dropping rendering of older ones should just be a normal part of style maintenance IMO. Obviously priorities will change over time. There's zero reason it should be a (big) thing and it's not fair to anyone involved, or OSM more generally, that it is.

Even more (or less? I'm not sure) so though because there doesn't seem to be the will to alter the "style purpose" file or whatever it is and it still has a mapper feedback as part of that purpose. I know in this case at least that rendering craft icons help a lot in that regard. At least in my experience there seems to be a lot of miss-tagging of craft places as shops or other things that do render. At the end of the day the important thing is to balance the pros and cons, and I think the pros of rendering craft icons outweigh the cons. Especially given that (again, I'm only saying in my experience) the objects are already being rendered as other things anyway. So, at least from what I've seen this won't increase map clutter by that much. The problem with a catch all prohibition on rendering anything until some amorphous thing is dealt with is that it doesn't account for such things as that though.

[imagico]

As @jeisenbe wrote mentioning #3635 has the purpose of making it clear to developers that while some maintainers might express encouragement to develop a change to add new symbols to this style there is no consensus on that among maintainers and such changes are therefore currently likely to be rejected.

3635 will not go away by letting time pass. It will be resolved by either all maintainers showing a willingness to develop a consensus for the strategic direction of the style in that regard or by developers developing changes that resolve the issues pointed out in #3635 and that achieve consensus among maintainers practically.

The discussion in #3635 is open and anyone willing to work towards a consensus there is welcome. @jeisenbe and me also have in #3951 worked towards ideas how to ensure consensus based decision making works in cases some maintainers express a sustained non-constructive attitude.

[Adamant36]

As @jeisenbe wrote mentioning #3635 has the purpose of making it clear to developers that while some maintainers might express encouragement to develop a change to add new symbols to this style there is no consensus on that among maintainers and such changes are therefore currently likely to be rejected.

I know. I just don't think pointing to an issue that hasn't had a comment on it for a year except for ones that are off topic every time someone wants to implement something new really moves things forward at all. Even #3951 hasn't had any activity since January. There is a point where things will just natural proceed how they were before the issues were opened if no one takes the time to actually resolve them. Like I said in my other comment anyway, it's not a black and white thing where they either get dealt with or they don't. There's intermediate steps that can taken in the meantime. A few have been suggested, but from what I remember you tossed them off as not adequate because they didn't completely reinvent the wheel or whatever (I.E. weren't system wide changes), but you can only eat the elephant one part at a time. Books are written a page at a time. The journey of a thousands starts with...Etc etc..Otherwise, it can be akin to analysis paralysis.

You say that it can be resolved by "developers developing changes that resolve the issues pointed out in #3635", but from what I remember there wasn't even clear changes pointed out that would resolve it. Let alone any with consensus. There was a lot of generalities and vague comments though. I have some ideas, but they are not "system wide" and are likely to be rejected. Some similar suggestions already have been. No one is going to develop things just because either. Especially since this is a maintainer problem, not a developer one. It's on the maintainers to have a clear direction for the style and make it explicit what's acceptable or not. Not to just be like "do a PR for whatever, and maybe it will accepted and maybe it won't." That's not a good way to do things. At least @kocio-pl is 100% clear in position and what direction he thinks the style should go in. I think @jeisenbe is to some degree also. Although less so. You seem to be less specific in what exactly you want done and more so about what you don't. That's just my reading of it though. I could be wrong, but I've read through all the discussions a bunch of times.

Like do a project with specific issues that can be discussed and resolved to lead to a resolution. It's not that difficult and it's how things will ultimately get resolved. Either way though, there has to be clear, specific things to take action on.

[imagico]

@Adamant36 - If you want to discuss our decision making processes here then #3951 is the place to do that - not a specific design issue like this. Same for the general strategy on POI rendering - that is a matter for #3635, not here.

[kocio-pl]

If you think they are off-topic, simply don't introduce them.

[imagico]

@kocio-pl - sorry, i have no idea what you mean.

[kocio-pl]

As @jeisenbe wrote mentioning #3635 has the purpose (...)

It is you trying to discuss some other issue here.

[imagico]

I was explaining to @Adamant36 in more detail the relevance of mentioning #3635 on this issue and encouraged further discussion on generic matters beyond the scope of this issue on the relevant other issues. I repeated this suggestion more strongly today after further generic commentary without specific connection to this issue. Your comments do not seem to make much sense in that context to me. If you want to discuss the way we structure communication on this issue tracker into separate issues that would deserve possibly opening a new issue.

[kocio-pl]

But you have not discussed it there, but here, yourself in the first place. Why did you not tell to @jeisenbe to move there and even joined him, but to @Adamant36 when he replied to you on your own topic?

[imagico]

Sorry @kocio-pl - i can't follow your logic here. In any case - if you want to discuss procedure or communication style please do so at a separate issue.

[kocio-pl]

Do not treat the same topic from different persons in a different way, as you did here.

[map-per]

I opend a new PR for craft (#4809) and would be happy to get some input about the design choices: Do you like the colour choice? Or should craft be displayed in office blue? And should rendering start at 17, like for shops, or rather at 18, like for offices?