Inclined elevator

[sabas]

It's possible to render inclined elevators?

For example http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/rw/IlSecoloXIXWEB/multimedia/xixtv/foto/2015/01/4002166981001.jpg http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/225786087

Another case I saw is mis-tagged as railway=funicular http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/188890025#

Currently it's rendered only if it's a point

[kocio-pl]

I think it is worth doing, but I don't know what is the proper tagging (just highway=elevator on a line?) and I'm not sure how should it look like. Do you have an idea? Maybe two elevator icons on both ends, but what about the line between them? The same as in the aerialway or what?

[sabas]

What about reusing the same style as funicular but with the transport light blue?

[kocio-pl]

I would start with updating and expanding related definition wiki page, which is messy now: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Delevator http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lifts

probably the best would be even to mention this type of elevators on the Tagging list first: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[matkoniecz]

This is a really rare feature and for reason described in #1630 I would propose to not render it.

Also, there is separate problem about how it is supposed tagged - but that should not be discussed here.

[kocio-pl]

For me modification of funicular sounds convincing: we probably just need two "cabin" icons on both ends instead of standard station squares, so if we expect people to recognize both elevators and funiculars, a mix of those features shouldn't be strange.

The problem of tagging is not totally separated: if tagging would be put only on the line, we should know if it's possible to automatically add icons on both ends (is it technically possible with osm-carto?), but if both "stations" should be tagged too, our job would be only to add elevator line to the funicular line style. The latter would be also consistent with funicular tagging, but wiki documentation doesn't not say anything about it, so we could give a hint about it.

[dieterdreist]

2015-11-04 11:44 GMT+01:00 Stefano notifications@github.com:

For example

http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/rw/IlSecoloXIXWEB/multimedia/xixtv/foto/2015/01/4002166981001.jpg http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/225786087

Another case I saw is mis-tagged as railway=funicular http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/188890025#

wikipedia has it's own article for incline elevator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incline_elevator I think that's not a bad idea, and would propose also for OSM a new tag rather than reusing the "elevator" tag.

[Circeus]

On a functional level (I.E. what they do and how people use them), there is virtually no difference at all between these features, so I completely fail to see why these should require different other than anal insistence on technological difference being reflected on the map.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

Am 09.11.2015 um 02:49 schrieb Circeus notifications@github.com:

On a functional level (I.E. what they do and how people use them), there is virtually no difference at all between these features, so I completely fail to see why these should require different other than anal insistence on technological difference being reflected on the map.

even more for most road types btw, they are not only functionally the same, also physically. Anal insistence?

[Circeus]

even more for most road types btw, they are not only functionally the same, also physically. Anal insistence?

anal adj. of a person, obsessed with neatness, accuracy, compulsiveness and stubbornness.

I can think of plenty of clearer adjectives to describe this approache: persnickety, fastidious, finicky, rigid, inflexible...

As far as road goes, I'd say the comparison would be to display differently road using asphalt, concrete and rubberized asphalt as pavement.

Let's be clear: I have no issues with incline elevators being tagged as such and being displayed on the map. What I completely fail to see is why they should require a different display to funiculars when they perform the same thing (getting people up external inclines) in functionally the same way (using a sort of trackage along which a tram-like cabin moves).

[dieterdreist]

2015-11-09 11:10 GMT+01:00 Circeus notifications@github.com:

Let's be clear: I have no issues with incline elevators being tagged as such and being displayed on the map. What I completely fail to see is why they should require a different display to funiculars when they perform the same thing (getting people up external inclines) in functionally the same way (using a sort of trackage along which a tram-like cabin moves).

thanks for clarifying, I agree that there might be advantage in grouping very similar features (like here) with identical rendering style.

[jojo4u]

The german Wikipedia article is very verbose and states: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4gaufzug

• technically they are funiculars with one cabin
• normative they are threated like a kind of elevator (in the EU)

Since OSM is more more about what it looks like and technically is than what some law says I'd say it's a a subtag for funicular (funicular=inclined_elevator). But this discussion belongs to tagging-ML.

[matthijsmelissen]

I would also agree this is in fact a type of funicular.

Therefore I'll close this issue, at least until a discussion on the tagging list suggests otherwise.

[matkoniecz]

There is a discussion on tagging mailing list happening right now.

[imagico]

Reopening - as highway=elevator on ways (3300 uses) might have developed into a tag with a meaning distinct from railway=funicular (1700 uses). This would need to be verified by analysis of actual use.

Obvious solution if there is a well established and distinct use would be rendering it like railway=funicular - possibly with a minor variation.

[dieterdreist]

Am Fr., 4. Dez. 2020 um 19:44 Uhr schrieb Christoph Hormann < notifications@github.com>:

Reopening - as highway=elevator on ways (3300 uses) might have developed into a tag with a meaning distinct from railway=funicular (1700 uses). This would need to be verified by analysis of actual use.

Obvious solution if there is a well established and distinct use would be rendering it like railway=funicular - possibly with a minor variation.

by the mere word, a funicular seems to employ a rope, while elevators can have different types of force transmission (pistons, ropes and counterweights, cogs and toothed racks)

[jeisenbe]

Most inclined elevators seem to also operate with cables, with the difference being that in a funicular there are 2 cars attached to 1 cable, so one ascends while the other descends, but in an inclined elevator each car (or there might only be 1 car) is attached to a counterweight or a winch.

Unfortunately it looks like most uses of this tag on a way are actually areas (closed ways): https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10S8 - 3080 highway=elevator ways are closed. A review of a few of these suggests they are mostly 4 node rectangular ways which represent the area of a verticle elevator. About half are tagged indoor=room - https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10Se vs https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10S9 - 190 ways which are not closed. These look to be inclined elevators, though in some cases it’s not possible to tell if they might actually be a funicular instead.

While railway=funicular is 10 times as common, this might or might not represent the actually relative frequency of these features in the real world? I don’t know.

The wiki page text says that a railway=funicular is "A funicular, also known as an inclined plane or cliff railway, is a cable railway in which a cable attached to a pair of tram-like vehicles on rails moves them up and down a steep slope, the ascending and descending vehicles counterbalancing each other.”

However, the description in the infobox (which is much more commonly seen in places like taginfo and iD) is only “Cable driven inclined railway” - and this could include many types of "inclined elevators” which mostly run on rails too.

[ghost]

To see what I am talking about, see on the left of the pictures in this article or here. Those are very common inside metro stations in Sweden.

[Edited: "Replying the same as on the tagging mailing list: removed, see https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2020-December/056587.html

[jeisenbe]

@troposphhere the questions of how the tags should be documented in the wiki, and whether or not the tag is appropriate to use are off topic for this repository. Please discuss this on the tagging list or wiki talk page.

[ghost]

I suspect their rarity in OSM is due to two factors:

1. they are often underground, so often unmapped yet,
2. they are not supported by editors (at least not iD), and the fact that they don't show up on the default map doesn't help either.

In reality they seem surprisngly common.

Some are also incorrectly tagged in Openstreetmap, for example this one as a gondola lift.