Add rendering for leisure=horse_riding

[gszy]

Could you add rendering for the leisure=horse_riding tag?

Example: 323603669.

[kocio-pl]

I guess this could be rendered similar to dog park with horseshoes instead of paws or with a solid background and a horseshoe icon (like in playground).

[HolgerJeromin]

Why do riders need another tag (used 3800 times) ? The wiki page does not explain why sport=equestrian with sports centre (used 2000 times) is not enough.

With this problem I am not sure if we should render it special.

[kocio-pl]

Maybe the difference is between sport and leisure? This is not intended for horse racing, for example.

[gszy]

@kocio-pl, that’s what I think (but please note that there’s separate sport=horse_racing tag).

I mean, we can go to leisure=horse_riding to learn riding basics and practise (spare time activity). And in sports centre we can take part in riding competitions (professional activity). While it may be the same for a small riding stable, I think there can be a clear separation for bigger ones:

• 431355912 — there you learn and take care of horses
• 343063112 — and that’s nearby sports centre

Wiki (Riding) doesn’t tell what is the exact difference between sport=equestrian (+ some sports centre tag) and leisure=horse_riding (just ‘exercise’ versus ‘practise-in-spare-time’), but here I’ve written what I think about it.

[HolgerJeromin]

We don't have such a difference for any other sport, do we?

[kocio-pl]

I think the wiki descriptions for both tags are just too short to know.

There's some clue on a Riding page:

• leisure=pitch + sport=equestrian is for "riding ground" (A place to exercise horseback riding.)
• leisure=horse_riding is for "riding stable" (A place where people go in their spare time and practice horseback riding.)

but my English is not good enough to know what it really means.

[gszy]

One more thing I’ve just read on German wiki: leisure=pitch with sport=equestrian is considered to be a fragment/subarea of leisure=horse_riding. In other words, leisure=horse_riding includes all facilities like stables (buildings), buildings where you practise riding (‘Riding hall’) and leisure=pitch if such exists.

[kocio-pl]

BTW: the mentioned combination leisure=sports_centre + sport=equestrian (2k of uses) does not have its own definition (at least I didn't find it) and is less frequent than leisure=pitch + sport=equestrian (14k of uses).

I guess equestrian tags need some work before we can render them. Please use Tagging list probably to discuss it and make wiki definitions more clear.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

Il giorno 14 set 2016, alle ore 11:40, gscscnd notifications@github.com ha scritto:

Wiki (Riding) doesn’t tell what is the exact difference between sport=equestrian (+ some sports centre tag) and leisure=horse_riding (just ‘exercise’ versus ‘practise-in-spare-time’), but here I’ve written what I think about it.

clearly there are several quite different leisure things and sports you can do with horses, like horse racing, rent horses for people "going for a walk", halls for kids to go riding, people jumping with horses, etc. and rendering them differently can be justified.

[HolgerJeromin]

After my research the leisure=horse_riding should be the complete outline containing multiple buildings, pitches and so on. So it is equivalent to a leisure=sport_centre which contains buildings and pitches, too.

But yes, a thread on tagging if someone thinks leisure=horse_riding should survive is useful

[Hufkratzer]

... and equivalent to a leisure=golf_course. Why render leisure=golf_course and leisure=horse_riding not?

(Here is a good photo of auch a leisure=horse_riding area: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Warendorf,_Reitanlage_Josephshof_--_2014_--_8591.jpg?uselang=de )

[HolgerJeromin]

golf course is an interesting example. leisure=golf_course is probably a pitch and no sports_centre. thanks dieter

horse_riding and golf_cource have both "in use" status in wiki.

[dieterdreist]

sent from a phone

Il giorno 15 set 2016, alle ore 23:00, Holger Jeromin notifications@github.com ha scritto:

Golf is an interesting example. Leisure = golf course is probably a pitch and no sports centre.

-1, we are looking here how people do tag, not discussing how they should. A leisure=golf_course comprises more than just the 9/18 holes course, typically people use it for the whole area, possibly comprising driving range, putting area, parking, club house etc.

[jojo4u]

sport_centre is for venues with a range of sports (exception: natatorium). For venues with only one sport an own tag should be used when possible.

[HolgerJeromin]

I often surround many tennis courts with a sports centre which gets the name and address.

[Hufkratzer]

This is probably just because the wiki strongly discourages to use leisure=tennis, see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport=tennis (scroll down)

For horse_riding it is the opposite: The wiki clearly recommends to use leisure=horse_riding, see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Riding ("Riding stable") This is probably because not everyone sees / practices horse riding as a sport, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasure_riding

So in the wiki horse_riding is handled more like golf and not like tennis, compare http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport=golf

Maybe you can render leisure=sports_centre + sport=* too if it is used for just one kind of sport?

[mboeringa]

sport_centre is for venues with a range of sports (exception: natatorium). For venues with only one sport an own tag should be used when possible.

I don't agree. The distinction of what is a single sport or leisure=sports_centre is often very blurry. Even for sport facilities that may apparently be easy to distinguish as belonging to a single "sport", that sport may have varieties being regularly played on the same pitches, or on another type or part of the pitch or another facility within the perimeters. E.g. soccer or field_hockey may switch to indoor varieties in winter months.

[kocio-pl]

Please check if this discussion doesn't belong to Tagging list, since we have too many questions regarding tagging before we can even start talking about rendering. There's already a thread started by @gscscnd:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-September/030134.html

[Tomasz-W]

What about this issue future? Is an icon project needed here?

[kocio-pl]

I don't remember the output of the Tagging discussion, you should probably check it first.

[Hufkratzer]

If you need an icon perhaps you can take one of the two possibilties from https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/844: or

[Tomasz-W]

I don't remember the output of the Tagging discussion, you should probably check it first.

The output was to stay with this tag, and use sport=equestrian only in combination with leisure=pitch to map certain riding areas.

I thought about an icon with horse jumping above obstacle. What do you think?

[Hufkratzer]

JOSM uses these icons: for sport=equestrian (+pitch) (equestrian.svg) for leisure=horse_riding (horse_riding.svg)

I think this makes sense, looks more sporty, it may even try to symbolize a jumper (compare photo in wiki) looks more relaxed, symbolizing a pleasure rider So I think the horse jumping above obstacle could better be used for sport=equestrian (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/844)

[Tomasz-W]

Here is another possible icon: https://github.com/mapbox/maki/blob/master/icons/horse-riding-15.svg

[gszy]

I prefer JOSM’s icons, they’re very clear, at least for me. That Mapbox’s looks like ‘i’ on a horse — it’s caused by those white jodhpurs which additionally make the icon look two­‑colored instead of single­‑colored.

[Hufkratzer]

I think the JOSM icons would need refinement before they can be used on the standard map.

Perhaps these similar looking alternatives can be used: for leisure=horse_riding (from here) for sport=equestrian (from here, this is dressage and not jumping, but in 14px it looks quite similar; and dressage is sport too)

Compare current JOSM icons: horse_riding.svg
equestrian.svg

[Tomasz-W]

@Hufkratzer We can't use this icons due to their licences. There are also some technical requirements: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#map-icon-guidelines

[Hufkratzer]

AFAICS the icons are in the public domain. What is wrong wirh that? They are a bit complex, but perhaps it's easier to remove some complexity than to draw new icons..

[Tomasz-W]

@Hufkratzer Can you refine JOSM icons due to your remarks?

[Hufkratzer]

Perhaps, I don't know. I am not experienced with icons. It will take time, I assume it is not urgent.

[Tomasz-W]

I can try to edit and make those JOSM icons better, but you have to explain what is wrong with them in your opinion, beceause for me they look ok.

[Adamant36]

@Tomasz-W Any idea where this one is at and what icon we are going with?

[Hufkratzer]

I have some drafts meanwhile, but they are not finished yet. (It's not so easy to draw hores and riders correctly.) How urgent is it?

[Adamant36]

@Hifkratzer Not urgent at all. Take all the time you want. I just got the impression there was a usable icon up there somewhere in all of them, but I wasnt sure what one. I'm glad someone is working on a different though. Since none of them seemed to really work for me.

[Hufkratzer]

Here are drafts of how I would draw the horse icons:

equestrian.svg horse_riding.svg Some other icons for comparison JOSM equestrian.svg JOSM horse_riding.svg golf.svg handball.svg picnic.svg playground.svg running.svg sauna.svg sports.svg (shop) toys.svg (shop) veterinary.svg

Some of them a bit larger (70px):

JOSM icons - what was improved?

equestrian.svg

• unclear what they are doing (I assumed they try to jump)
• rider sits too far back on the horse
• legs of horse not correct

Compare other icons:

• https://www.shutterstock.com/es/image-vector/riding-horse-silhouette-equestrian-sport-equipment-482507050
• https://www.shutterstock.com/es/image-vector/overcoming-obstacles-horse-symbol-vector-102902240

Compare photos:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ILHS_2016_-_20160909_-_Donovan_Ber_et_Virtuose_du_Faubourg_2.jpg
• https://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-image-horse-show-jumping-image27446276
• https://static1.squarespace.com/static/52092d15e4b0f89d3271e4d3/t/595f6c4c6b8f5b29ad818b2f/1499425872877/?format=500w

horse_riding.svg

• rider sits too far back on the horse
• legs of horse a bit strange
• head of horse too high for pleasure riding

Compare other icons:

• https://publicdomainvectors.org/en/free-clipart/Woman-riding-horse-silhouette/68010.html
• https://www.shutterstock.com/es/image-vector/silhouette-rider-trotting-on-horse-779951746

Compare photos:

• https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJxRLBleliGSOh9wT68boYWxz0IidbUGbwn2UF3sgEwI-PYrrY
• https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMCnWp9NsJk-zXXLZzw7A8oe6EzssIELqO1y5NLBy8yAeVxPVOUg
• https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9jq5zU-eTQsGbWbMqj62A-6p4obA4O39tlQdZZ0bj5FOBMTbvdQ

@Tomasz-W :

My horse icon drafts were drawn by hand (on paper), scanned and svged automatically in Inkscape, so they are not exact yet, just drafts! I have tried to place at least the hooves and noses of the horses in the center of a pixel. Is this helpful for you to improve the JOSM icons or to create new ones that meet all requirements? Do you need anything else or what do you propose?

[Tomasz-W]

@Hufkratzer I made icon designs based on your drafts (they were not useful for OSM at all, we need to have a complete project made in Inkscape from the beginning):

• equestrian
• horse_riding

If you want to make this shapes better, I'm putting a raw Inkscape files which you can edit etc.: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/911d68c20f95320e1e5f97bccf90114d

[Hufkratzer]

@Tomasz-W Thanks, we can continue with your drafts, I will have a closer look at them.

But you exchanged equestrian and horse_riding. Was that on purpose? I propose to use the jumper icon for sport=equestrian like it is in JOSM. (This has already been discussed in these posts above: 1 & 2.)

[Tomasz-W]

Sorry for the switch, I was uploading these icons on the evening, when I was quite tired, of course jumper one is for equestrian and the second one is for horse_riding.

When you will work on these icons in Inkscape, remember about trying to pixel align certain shapes to the grid (but it's not the priority here, because they are quite complicated icons), it makes icon sharper on the map. When you finish, export designs as 14x14px *.png files and post them here to discuss.

[Hufkratzer]

@Tomasz-W

Here is my second draft for the horse icons, based on what you did.

The 14px exports look like: for sport=equestrian for leisure=horse_riding The black icons (on the left) are yours, the brown icons (on the right) my.

The same a bit larger and with grid:

Changes:

for sport=equestrian:

• head and neck of horse lower, more like in photos given in post above
• hooves and nose of horse put in center of pixel, lower part of horses front leg longer
• obstacle lower, compare photos, horse will hardly get over the high one in this manner
• riders head smaller, should be smaller than horses one
• horsetail leaner

for leisure=horse_ridng:

• rider leaner, looked really fat. Yes, pixel aligned lines look less blurry, but nevertheless the proportions should not be distorted too much IMHO; compare picnic.svg, the icons should still look ok if scaled a bit larger, eg. in the wiki
• riders head smaller, should be smaller than horses one
• hooves and nose of horse put in center of pixel
• horsetail leaner

Maybe I changed something that you did for some good reason just because I didn't know the reason; feel free to correct it.

[Tomasz-W]

Thanks! Looks ok for me. When you are posting Gist link with SVG file these steps should be done at the end:

• select all elements and click "path"->"union"
• delete all needless nodes (eg. when there is 3 or more nodes on a square/ rectangle side)
• save file as "Clean SVG"

You can download one of my SVGs and use it as template (delete my design from it, then paste yours, do the steps described above and save the file as clean SVG). It should be easier than changing your file settings.

You can wait with it for a few days, because some new suggestions may happen, and it's always annoying to save/ upload file again and again.

[Hufkratzer]

Here are the new horse icons: equestrian.svg horse_riding.svg

I couldn't find an option to save a file as "Clean SVG" in Inkscape 0.91, only "Normal SVG" what is without Inkscape-specific stuff, but still with other things that looked unnecessary; so I opened picnic.svg als a template in a text editor and replaced d= and id= with the ones of the horse icons. Seems to work this way.

[Tomasz-W]

I've fixed them a liitle bit (bigger heads, more pixel alligning)

@Adamant36 It's ready for testing: https://gist.github.com/Tomasz-W/911d68c20f95320e1e5f97bccf90114d

[Adamant36]

@Tomasz-W OK. I think I'm only going to do leisure=horse_riding though and save sport=equestrian for issue #844. Since @kocio-pl ocio-pl says its better not to mix things in a single PR in case one gets rejected. Plus, I'm still working on how to add a whole new rendering category to the code like is needed for the sports stuff. Maybe @kocio-pl can point me in the direction of some information on how to do that.

[Hufkratzer]

@Tomasz-W

I've fixed them a liitle bit (bigger heads, more pixel alligning)

Extremely bad, IMHO! Please explain the purpose of your "fixes" in more detail. How can an inclined line be more pixeö-aligned than a vertical one? I wonder why we discussed my drafts previously.

Here is your horse_riding icon (black) compared to my (brown):

Your rider is much too big compared to the horse. He is also tilted forward without reason, was is clearly wrong and looks really awful, compare the photos above.

If you explain what you want and why I can try to make a new version of icons.

[Tomasz-W]

Please don't compare icons in Inkscape scale, but in 14x14 scale, as we use them in OSM-Carto in this one. We shouldn't be "glued" to natural proportions of some objects, because sometimes it leads to lower readability of the icon. There have been voices that with vertical line it looked more like some "i" letter (see: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2344#issuecomment-405082224), I also think it looked more like some stick than a human.

[Hufkratzer]

#2344 (comment) :

That Mapbox’s looks like ‘i’ on a horse — it’s caused by those white jodhpurs which additionally make the icon look two­‑colored instead of single­‑colored.

Please have look at this vidio, 3rd miunute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w8As0gln6o and at the photos above

[gszy]

There have been voices that with vertical line it looked more like some "i" letter

but

it’s caused by those white jodhpurs

[Adamant36]

Jodhpurs or not, the guy is still barely visible/looks like a stick in @Hufkratzer version. Also, in @Hufkratzer's version the rider looks sunk into the horses midsection. Whereas, @Tomasz-W''s version just looks more natural because the rider appears to be up a little more and would be more inclined to lean forward with the horse as he rides, instead of sitting straight up. Its more "kinetic" that way and gives the icon a sense of movement that is missing otherwise. Really, a person wouldn't be sitting up straight on the horse unless they are either standing still or riding for show, which is covered by the other icon. But "riding" insinuates movement and the icon should reflect it.

[Hufkratzer]

@Adamant36 We are talking here about the icon for leisure=... In the other icon for sport=... the rider leans forwards because he has his ass out of the saddle; this is something else. When you ride relaxed just for fun, most of the time the horse walks and there is no need to get your ass out of the saddle and no need to lean forwards. The horse moves and the rider sits on the horse and should not to annoy it. Even in a car you don't have to lean forwards all the time although it moves much faster. If a horse walks it isn't much faster than a hiker, and also a hiker doesn't have to lean forwards, a typical hiking icon looks like this:

If you sit on your horse like in Tomasz-W*s icon for some hours you will probably get back pain. This and other disadvantages of leaning forwards are explained in the video to what I linked in my previous post. If you don't watch videos and prefer to read something about it you may try these articles:

• http://www.equine-world.co.uk/riding_horses/rider_position.asp Rider Position
• http://www.happy-horse-training.com/sitting-on-a-horse.html The Error of Leaning Forwards

[Adamant36]

@Hufkratzer, I mostly agree with you. Except that the forward slant is not that profound and is still less then for the sport icon. No person unless they are a professional Spanish horse rider is going to be able to stay at a straight angle 100% of the time. They just don't have the muscles for it. So there will always inherently be a slight tilt to how they sit. In fact, in the second link you provided, the riders are positioned leaning slightly back due to putting the weight on their seat bones. As the article says "it is important to keep the upper body well back, in order to help keep the weight on the back of the seat-bones." So if anything @Tomasz-W's icon should be adjusted back more, but still not be straight up like your say.

Anyway, whatever complaint you might have about the riders position in @Tomasz-W's version, at least it looks like a rider and not a stick. If you want to create a better icon in the same position that looks more like a person go for it, but at this point I think @Tomasz-W's is the best one. I'm perfectly willing to give your revised one a chance though if you create it.

P.S. Watch this video of pro Spanish horse riders. Rarely if never are they at a straight angle. Except maybe as a function of the horse jumping, but not because of sitting position. 99% of the time they are in a leaned back position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DWC3mIyDqQ