Render node highway=trailhead

[pelderson]

Expected behavior

Render highway=trailhead nodes on OSM Carto at an earlier zoom level than information=board.

Trailheads are common features in many countries. In the US, Japan and recently the Netherlands, they are official and documented named places of interest and they are systematically mapped in OSM. As there are many more places fitting the description, increased occurrence is expected once the feature is rendered by OSM-carto.

information=board is closely associated with trailheads, but shows up very late when zooming in, probably because cities contain very many information boards. Trailheads are typically in the countryside, nature reserves etcetera. A trailhead always contains a board, but it has more importance: benches, parking, other facilities. Therefore display at an earlier zoom level would be in order.

At this point I'm not asking for a separate icon for trailheads. Maybe in the future, if the usage actually increases.

For now, I would like trailheads with their names to show up as information boards at level 17, that is when benches, bike parkings and some recreational buildings/areas appear.

I think this could be accomplished by rendering information boards at an earlier zoomlevel if the highway=trailhead tag is present. Right?

Actual behavior

If the trailhead node is tagged with tourism=information + information=board + name= it will render as a board with the name underneath. This is fine, because a board is actually always there, but it shows up too late (lv 19) when zooming in.

Links and screenshots illustrating the problem

Level 19: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.05771/4.73918 Level 17: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.05758/4.73940

[kocio-pl]

This tag has no wiki documentation (one should start with that), moreover the amount of uses is still quite low (just 1436 right now), so it's unlikely we start showing it at this moment:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/highway=trailhead

[pelderson]

That is why I'm just asking for a modification of an existing feature display (information board). I am not proposing a new icon. There is a wiki proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead I did not refer to this, because this also suggests a new icon, which I do not ask for at this point.

I should probably have stated this clearer and should have used a different topic title...

[kocio-pl]

Good to know, but it does not change too much. As the numbers are raising quite fast, it will probably stop being blocker in next few months (2k is what we usually consider to be popular enough), but if the proposal is frozen, someone needs to document existing usage at least in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dtrailhead .

The icon on the wiki is not a problem, we are free to use whatever we find to be good (which usually means someone making new design, but sometimes reuse is OK, and this seems to be such case).

[Adamant36]

@kocio-pl, going by the last paragraph in the persons first message, I think the person was saying in a roundabout way that information boards should render sooner then z19. Which he/she thinks is to late. The issue seems to be more about that then adding rendering for highway=trailhead.

@pelderson am I correct that rendering information boards at z17 or z18 instead of z19 would be a satisfactory solution to the issue?

[pelderson]

That is correct, for now I just want information boards (and the name of the board if present) rendered from z17 instead of z19, if the tag highway=trailhead is also present.

Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 22:36 schreef Adamant36 notifications@github.com:

@kocio-pl https://github.com/kocio-pl, going by the last paragraph in the persons first message, I think the person was saying in a roundabout way that information boards should render sooner then z19. Which he/she thinks is to late. The issue seems to be more about that then adding rendering for highway=trailhead.

@pelderson https://github.com/pelderson am I correct that rendering information boards at z17 or z18 instead of z19 would be a satisfactory solution to the issue?

— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3585#issuecomment-449504337, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AkrTym3hnb1pRjbbOsCwrBU8ayRf9HbXks5u7VRNgaJpZM4ZdzxH .

-- Vr gr Peter Elderson

[Adamant36]

Looking over the proposal it seems like bad tagging to map it as only a node and combine it with an information board. The highway tag signifies a liner way to me. Not a node feature of the road. Unless its something like a turning circle which is tagged to the actual road. Where in this case it wouldnt be. So the two options are, either tag it as a node on the road or make it a sub tag of tourism. The later sounds like the better option. It should be discussed on the proposal page though.

I suggest the issue be closed in the meantime until the details get figured out elsewhere.

[kocio-pl]

We have also highway=bus_stop, so it can be something different than the line and actual road. I think using tourism=* namespace would make more sense, but that is better for pending discussion on Taging list.

[pelderson]

Trailheads are not nomally part of the trail they are heading! They are often places on areas like parkings, fields, woods, in the vicinity of, but not necessarily adjacent the trail, but it would not make sense to attach the node to those features either.

In the discussion on the tagging list and on the Dutch forum, nobody has yet said anything about moving to the tourism namespace, maybe because tourism=information is often added to the node as well (a board is generally part of the trailhead) and you can't use the same tag twice.

But that is for later discussions. At this point I would just like the information board to appear from z17 instead of from z19 if the trailhead tag (which is already increasingly in use) is also present.

Op za 22 dec. 2018 om 00:35 schreef kocio-pl notifications@github.com:

We have also highway=bus_stop, so it can be something different than the line and actual road. I think using tourism=* namespace would make more sense, but that is better for pending discussion on Taging list.

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-- Vr gr Peter Elderson

[Adamant36]

Hhhhmmm, well, I think my feedback on the tag above still stands. I could add more to it, but I don't want to get in a tagging discussion. The more important thing anyway is what @kocio-pl said about the tag needing documentation/more usage/etc first. The standards for rendering inclusion don't suddenly go away just because the tag is being tagged in conjunction with something else.

So, even if we are only adding it as a rendering rule variable to information boards, it still would have to have proper documentation etc. Otherwise, we risk adding something that will just be invalidated two months later. Given that, I still suggest the issue be closed until the wrinkles with the tag are ironed out. Sorry.

It should be good incentive to flesh the tag out though and get it through the proposal stage. I look forward to it being rendered when it does. As there's a lot of trail-heads where I live in America that would be really useful to render.

[Adamant36]

@kocio-pl, I agree. Hopefully someone brings it up on the tagging mailing list (nudge nudge @pelderson).

[matkoniecz]

Given poor documentation on Wiki I am planning to decline it for now.

It is not mandatory to go through a proposal process, but missing https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dtrailhead&action=edit is in my opinion a blocker.

[pelderson]

Is that a no to displaying information=board at a lower zoom level if the trailhead tag is present? Or would wiki documentation (further than a proposal) be required for that also?

I could try and create a wiki page for the key for very basic tagging of trailhead. Just a node tagged highway=trailhead and name=* is enough for finding, rendering and using trailheads. I will not drag the existing proposal through a formal vote. This is a small existing thing, some support on the tagging list should be enough.

Op di 25 dec. 2018 om 18:49 schreef Mateusz Konieczny < notifications@github.com>:

Given poor documentation on Wiki I am planning to decline it for now.

It is not mandatory to go through a proposal process, but missing https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dtrailhead&action=edit is in my opinion a blocker.

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-- Vr gr Peter Elderson

[matkoniecz]

It would be preferable to have a page describing how this feature is/should be tagged.

For example - is tourism information board and trailhead supposed to be tagged on the same node?

[matkoniecz]

Given that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead is in limbo, there is no page on OSM Wiki that summarises tagging situation and there is large discussion of trailhead tagging on the mailing list it seems clear that it is too early for supporting this tag.

[kocio-pl]

I agree, so I will close it now. It can be reopened once the tagging is clear.

[pelderson]

Info: Basic tagging of trailhead nodes has been documented following conclusion of the discussion on the tagging list. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/highway=trailhead#wiki

[matkoniecz]

Thanks!

Reopening, as original reason is no longer valid. Note that it does not mean that it will or it should be reverted.

[pelderson]

I am bumping this because the documentation has been updated. The tag highway=trailhead has reached status "de facto" and usage >8K. There is also a new rendering suggestion, not fixed to hiking, because also bicycle/mtb trails and canoo trails can start at multimode trailheads. I would like the icon to appear from the same zoom as e.g. picnic tables (z17).

[imagico]

For reference: 8139 uses, 4.5k of that in the US, notable concentrations in Taiwan and Spain (both >700), in Spain almost exclusively by a single mapper.